Which Government is backing Al-Qaeda?

Something that was seemingly missed by many members here when the latest Al-Qaeda video tape was released, was that Ayman al-Zawahiri was pictured with a Wz. 1974 Pallad Grenade launcher, to his left, which is undoubtedly North Korean or Chinese made:



This was picked up by the Washington Times, the article located here:

As with most such videos delivered by al Qaeda in the past and aired on the Arab networks first and later picked up by Western media, weapons are frequently used as props. This time was no exception, and behind Osama bin Laden's deputy was a weapon nonchalantly positioned against the wall of wherever al Zawahiri taped his message.
At first glance, the weapon passes for a Kalashnikov AK-47 assault rifle, initially built by the Soviets, but since cloned by several former Eastern Bloc countries, as well as by Yugoslavia, China and North Korea. More than 50 armies in the world have firearms created by Kalashnikov.
But a closer inspection of the weapon reveals it has a little black tube attached under the barrel, quite similar to the ones on the American M-16, which turns it into an M-203 grenade launcher.
The disturbing fact in this instance is that al Zawahiri is making a bold statement in showing off his new hardware. New, sophisticated weapons, such as the one in the video are not the kind peddled by arms dealers in shady backwater Middle East arms bazaars. This weapon appears to be a state-of-the-art modern gun made in either China or North Korea.
Quick research shows the weapon behind al Zawahiri is called a Wz. 1974 Pallad grenade launcher. According to the Kalashnikov Web site, the attachment was initially developed in the late 1960s to replace the not entirely successful Wz. 1960.72 grenade-launching adaptations of the AK. But as is often the case, the plans remained shelved for many years before it was developed and manufactured.
Interestingly, in a dozen conflicts this reporter has covered in the Middle East since the early 1970s, he had never come across such a weapon. Instead, the preferred adaptation used by fighting forces throughout the Middle East, from the Palestinians to the Iraqis, starting from the early 1960s and through the most recent conflicts, has been a grenade attached to a rod that fits into the barrel of the AK47, called "energa."

Al Qaeda's arsenal

This is a very good read and if such is true or valid, the implications of this are far reaching and have a significant bearing on a number of issues.






seekerof


[edit on 11-8-2005 by Seekerof]

North Korean made, and now they have more reasons to go after NK because they are supplying weapons to the enemy...

Or so the story will go...

Originally posted by TrueLies
North Korean made, and now they have more reasons to go after NK because they are supplying weapons to the enemy...

Or so the story will go...

u be surprise to know wat North Korea supply these days. who knows wat else North Korea will do to get its hands on hard currency to maintain that million man army with all those military hardware in good shape.

TrueLies, your narrow scope of looking at this is beyond even me, but no harm, you are capable of discerning as we all are.

The whole point of this was the implications of Al-Qaeda being backed and armed by a government or governments that seemingly back such a terrorist organization. We are not talking about some under foot type organization, we are talking the world's largest and most active and deadliest organization: Al-Qaeda.

For a government to back a terrorist organization, such as Al-Qaeda, has world wide effects and implications......not just further rhetoric for an alleged justification to invade North Korea, which was never going to happen in the first place, despite the hype played out on it happening within ATS. Look deeper....





seekerof

I can answer that question and the gun maker isn't even involved. Parts of the governments of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are the ones who are backing Al-Qaeda. I'm confident that Bin Laden isn't working out an arms deal with Kim Jong-Il, it is his supporters in Pakistan, Saudi and even possibly Iran who is acquiring the weapons and passing it on to Al-Qaeda.

That is certainly a very plausible possibility, worldwatcher.
I will do some digging this afternoon to see if Saudi Arabia, Iran, and specifically, Pakistan, has/have access to procurements of such weapons.




seekerof

[edit on 11-8-2005 by Seekerof]

The firearm in the background appears to have and added GP-25 kit, not as in the case with the example (posted to the right). The kits are usually used to adapt AKMS and AK74 (and knock-offs such as found in Pakistan and from independent manufactures/craftsmen in Afghanistan etc.). Look at similarities below, simple examples.


GP-25 kit (left) and AKMS and AK74 equipped with a GP-25 (right)


Nonetheless; GP-25’s and their spin-offs are easily available as kits.


.

Interesting find to say the least Seeker.

One thing that should be kept in mind is that the ak47 is one of the most commonly copied assault rifles around, so without access to the actual weapon and it's serial numbers (if it even has any) it would be quite hard to tell exactly where it came from.

Also - as cjf pointed out, there are many kits and knock off kits that can be used to add a grenade launcher to the weapon. So again, without access to the actual weapon i'd have to say our odds of figuring out where exactly it came from based on a video are slim to none.

Hmmm...

To me it looks like this:

AKM Modernized assault rifle with 6G15 grenade launcher

or

AK-74 Assault Rifle with 6GD15 Grenade Launcher

Regarding the grenade launcher and it possibly being North Korean or Chinese, one has to remember that North Korea in particular has a history of selling arms to Rogue States, so while originating from North Korea it's possible it could come from any nation wanting to suplly Al-Qaida. China also for instance has provided a large amount of nuclear production material to Pakistan, who knows who they are willing to supply.

We are not talking about some under foot type organization, we are talking the world's largest and most active and deadliest organization: Al-Qaeda.

Many experts don't regard this as entirely true now. Their are so many groups coming out of the woodwork that claim loose affiliations with Al-Qaida, either just on general "moral" similarities, or because at one point in the past they might have trained at an Al-Qaida camp in Afghanistan or Pakistan. For instance the group responsible for the Madrid bombings, the Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group, claims to have ties to Al-Qaida.

Madrid Train Bombings

While many terrorist attacks have some affiliation with Al-Qaida and/or its personnel, the connection is much more vague.

Regardless of where the weapon/parts came from it realy doesnt matter, That very same gun can be made in the states for a couple hundred dollars, Guns over there are traded and sold for like $50 sometimes even way less, Ive seen captured weapons such as sturmgewehr 44's MG42's, Browning 30.Cal machine guns, K98's, Mosin Nagants ect, just to name a few... that have been found in iraq afghanistan ect, So by that standpoint, Germany, USA, Russia, ect are suplying al-qaeda with arms, i wouldnt dig to deep into this as itll be a waste of time.

My understanding is that Afghanistan and the Pakistan border region, where Osama might be and where he certainly spent a lot of time, is chock full o' guns of every sort, but especially AK's and variants of AK's from it's neighbors and it's neighbors' supporters. If the gun/grenade launcher in the pic is circa 1974, it seems a bit of a stretch to assume that it made its way directly from a national government to Al Qaeda. It, like most of the guns in the region, has most likely changed hands many times.

-koji K.

In that recent documentary released by AQ, the one with the Australian accented terrorist shouting at us all, I recall seeing a few M-16's with grenade launchers as well. Anybody else see that? At any rate, if these weapons were provided directly by N Korea, then the movie Team America was dead on.

Originally posted by 27jd
In that recent documentary released by AQ, the one with the Australian accented terrorist shouting at us all, I recall seeing a few M-16's with grenade launchers as well. Anybody else see that? At any rate, if these weapons were provided directly by N Korea, then the movie Team America was dead on.

those "M-16s" u saw, were takened from the dead Navy SEALs. maybe if u look at the M4 carbines, they are sprayed painted in desert camo. thats the technique used by Navy SEALs as well as other special forces to help make their weapons blend with the environment.

"I can answer that question and the gun maker isn't even involved. Parts of the governments of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are the ones who are backing Al-Qaeda. I'm confident that Bin Laden isn't working out an arms deal with Kim Jong-Il, it is his supporters in Pakistan, Saudi and even possibly Iran who is acquiring the weapons and passing it on to Al-Qaeda"

Teehe, just the two Arab nations? I suggest there are a whole whack of States down there doing the devil's deed. BinLaden, I feel, is no longer a name but amovement against the USA and free World.

Dallas

Originally posted by deltaboy
....they are sprayed painted in desert camo. thats the technique used by Navy SEALs as well as other special forces to help make their weapons blend with the environment.

Correct.
I have a picture of myself as a PJ in Iraq, 1st Gulf War, with exactly what you describe.

Here:




seekerof

[edit on 11-8-2005 by Seekerof]

Saudi Arabia is the biggest backer of Al Queda. In fact the prez of the U.S just recently stated what a great man the late king was. I guess he was overlooking everything the man stood for except low oil prices...but conviction is conviction none-the-less.

Now...what prize do I get for winning?


There is no enemy anywhere - Lao Tse

.
Bush has provided new territory for them to set up training grounds.

Bush has given them ammo and weapon's caches around Iraq to supply them.

Bush has funneled 9 billion dollars into unknown hands in Iraq.

Bush has given them recruiting poster images at Abu Graib.

Bush has made sure not to seek, acquire or cordon off nuclear matterials around the world.

Al Qaeda: 'Mr. Bush, We LOVE you!'
.

Originally posted by worldwatcher
I can answer that question and the gun maker isn't even involved. Parts of the governments of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are the ones who are backing Al-Qaeda. I'm confident that Bin Laden isn't working out an arms deal with Kim Jong-Il, it is his supporters in Pakistan, Saudi and even possibly Iran who is acquiring the weapons and passing it on to Al-Qaeda.

Yes of course, lets not forget Egypt, as Ayman is Egyptian. Forget about Al Quaida. It's stupid to even mention that name in logistics. Bin Laden has setup numerous corporations, and he has taught his network to do so as well. I'm sure this includes a few gun distributors. Keep in mind Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan are new Muslim nations seeking funding that comes from rich men like Bin Laden. This includes selling weapons. Iran is also pouring in AK's and bullets - no shortage there.

If Ayman was holding an AR15 Armalite would that mean he's getting supplied by the U.S.? Why assume a Korean model is supplied by Koreans directly. Everyone can get weapons real easy. Hell, you could buy enough Armalite's from a small local dealer to outfit an entire Platoon.

Originally posted by deltaboy
those "M-16s" u saw, were takened from the dead Navy SEALs. maybe if u look at the M4 carbines, they are sprayed painted in desert camo. thats the technique used by Navy SEALs as well as other special forces to help make their weapons blend with the environment.

Being as I am not in any special forces or the military, I would probably not be inclined to know that. And I guess if I look at the M4 carbines, I should also probably be able to tell that they are clearly painted with military issued spray paint, and I should also know that such advanced technology as spray paint would not be available in that part of the world. You say they were taken from dead SEALs, you seem to know that as fact, may I ask how? Seems to me they would go out of their way to flaunt that if it were true. The point I was making was, merely seeing a certain type of weapon in an AQ video is not enough to incriminate a certain government of providing weapons directly to them. From what I understand, most of the weapons they are getting come from the Balkans.