IS Jesus God or the Son of God???

The Devil doesnt blind anyone, thast just an excuse to not having to deal with resposibility...at the most The Devil sets up the stage and people choose what they do...

If you get drunk and have a car accident , did the Devile do it ? NO
If you cheat on your spouse, did the Devil do it ? NO

anyway thatas a all different story,

God is the Father in Heaven, and Jesus himself said so. He said "pary to my Father in Heavne, in my name"... He didnt say " pray to me, as I am God"...

so there...end of discussion..
Jesus is the SON OF GOD, and GOD is the FATHER IN HEAVEN...

I dont know why people have to make so simple a soap opera.

Now if peopel believe ( as in HAVING FAITH) that Jesus is the Son of God, thats a whole different movie

Satan and his horde of fallen angels have been attacking the word of God since the fall. In the last two thousand years part of that attack has been against the deity of Jesus Christ. Satan has gone to great lengths to build a system of belief that denies the deity of Jesus Christ. If Satan can get you to believe that Jesus was not God manifest in the flesh then you are lost and he has achieved another victory.

For years people attacked the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth. They tried to build a new false history that claimed that Jesus of Nazareth never existed and was simply a fairy tale.

That lie didn’t take hold as the evidence clearly showed that he was a real man who walked the earth. The new lie is even more wicked. The new lie not only denies that Jesus was God but tries to convince you that Jesus himself never claimed to be God.

This lie will also fail. Many hammers have struck against the truth of God’s Holy Bible and all of them have been worn out and beaten back.

Several people have posted on this thread that Jesus did not claim to be God and was not God manifest in the flesh. They are wrong. Let the Holy Word of God speak for itself and let every man who denies this be proven a liar.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Colossians 2:8,9 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Luke 8:39 Return to thine own house, and shew how great things God hath done unto thee. And he went his way, and published throughout the whole city how great things Jesus had done unto him.

Romans 14:10,11 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Philippians 2:5,6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John 10:24-33 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand. I and [my] Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

God identifies himself to the Jews of old by calling himself, “I am”.

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Jesus does the same and the religious Jews wanted to kill him for it because they understood that he was claiming to be God.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

This is only a small amount of scripture that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus was God and claimed to be God. It also shows that those around him believed that he claimed to be God. This was the very reason used by the religious Jews of his day to have him crucified.

So, do you still wish to proceed with your tired arguments that Jesus never claimed to be God?



Machine

Originally posted by Machine
Satan and his horde of fallen angels have been attacking the word of God since the fall. In the last two thousand years part of that attack has been against the deity of Jesus Christ. Satan has gone to great lengths to build a system of belief that denies the deity of Jesus Christ. If Satan can get you to believe that Jesus was not God manifest in the flesh then you are lost and he has achieved another victory.

First of, you are bearing false witness, by calling me or anyone else a demon without proof...the arrogance, selfrighteousness, nastiness, and aove all lack of respect and love is typical of someone who belongs to the OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) cult...

and dont try that nonsens, that my words proove i'm a demon, becaue my words only proove two things, that I CAN READ, and that YOU cant understand what I'm saying.

I've been around for a while, and Know ALL the "Cultish Protestant Church punch lines"

For years people attacked the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth. They tried to build a new false history that claimed that Jesus of Nazareth never existed and was simply a fairy tale.

That never came out of my mouth, and its not even the point of this thread.

That lie didn’t take hold as the evidence clearly showed that he was a real man who walked the earth. The new lie is even more wicked. The new lie not only denies that Jesus was God but tries to convince you that Jesus himself never claimed to be God.

Its not a lie... the Bible says " for God so loved the world, that he offered is only begotten son"

its does NOT say "for God so loved the world that he offered himself in the flesh"

This lie will also fail. Many hammers have struck against the truth of God’s Holy Bible and all of them have been worn out and beaten back.

its NOT a lie ...its lack of understanding of scared peopel, the fact that Jesus is the SON OF GOD, doesnt take away from what he did or what He died for . He still died for the sins of the World, and for those who choose to FOLLOW him and accept Him as Savior. One thing DOES NOT Stop the other.

Several people have posted on this thread that Jesus did not claim to be God and was not God manifest in the flesh. They are wrong. Let the Holy Word of God speak for itself and let every man who denies this be proven a liar.

The Bible also prooves that YOU are lying.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Yes that means that JESUS was the SON OF GOD, HAD THE SPIRIT OF GOD, He was GODLY, it doesnt mean He was GOD himself... JESUS was the representative of GOD ON EARTH, the Embassator of HEAVEN.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Because He REPRESENTS GOD on EARTH and HAS His SPRIT and POWER because GOD GAVE IT TO HIM.

Colossians 2:8,9 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Thats a warning against TRADITION... twisted Tradition... TRADITION OF CHURCHES WITH THOUSAND of ERRORS and MISTAKES.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

"the great God AND our Saviour"...its doesnt say "the Great God Our Savior JEsus Christ" ... it says God AND Our Saviro... Father AND The Son that represents HIm on Earth

Luke 8:39 Return to thine own house, and shew how great things God hath done unto thee. And he went his way, and published throughout the whole city how great things Jesus had done unto him.

Because JESUS did Those things with the POWER HIS FATHER IN HEAVEN gave unto him... JESUS wanted GOD to be promoted. Jesus knew that HE was the REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD on EARTH... he wasnt proud.

Romans 14:10,11 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Yes ...if YOU serve JESUS you serve HIS FATHER in HEAVEN, GOD.
GOD is the King of HEAVEN, Jesus is the SON, THE PRINCE of Heaven.

Philippians 2:5,6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Read that verse again, you'll see what there and waht I mean.

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

HE SAID GOD WAS HIS FATHER .... this verse makes my point even stronger.

John 10:24-33 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

again ..IN MY FATHERS NAME ... not "in my name "

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

Right... throu the power GOD HIS FATHER GAVE HIM

My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand. I and [my] Father are one.

Again... "I and my Father are one"... "I AND my Father".... " I AND MY FATHER"...how much more clear can this get ???... this doesnt mean he is God...it means HE HAS THE SPIRIT , THE GUIDANCE, THE POWER of His Father in Heaven... Because it was GIVEN to him. When GOD The Father in HEAVEN sent Him to Earth, He GAVE HIM HIS SPIRIT and POWER.

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father;

Again... FROM MY FATHER. ... did you even read the verses you posted ?? They clearly make the separation between GOD, The King and The Father in Heaven, and Yahshua The Son and Prince of Heaven, Emabassator of Heaven on Earth.

[for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.


Jesus said He was the Christ, The Son of God, and Emmanuel. The KJV translation changed it to GOD.

Emmanuel means "GOS WITH US", and that measn "SPIRIT OF GOD WITH US"

Can you see the difference?

God identifies himself to the Jews of old by calling himself, “I am”.

I AM = I EXHIST = I AM HERE ... MY spirit lives.

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Moses never spoke to Jesus... that was long beofre... Clearly Moses was spekaing to GOD THE FATHER IN HEAVEN...

Jesus does the same and the religious Jews wanted to kill him for it because they understood that he was claiming to be God.

They wanted to kill Him, because He claimed to be Emmanuel.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Meaning, Before Jesus came to Earth he exhisted in Heaven with His father... Jesus was THE PRINCE OF HEAVEN, and GOD is The King... how much easier can it get?

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Right, but God with us means ...THE SPIRIT of God with us...

If Jesus was GOD HIMSELF, that he would have been lying when he said He sent his son to the World... He would have to say, and I SENT MYSELF TO THE WORLD.

This is only a small amount of scripture that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus was God and claimed to be God. It also shows that those around him believed that he claimed to be God.
This was the very reason used by the religious Jews of his day to have him crucified.

Sorry those verses didnt make your point, they made mine...
And Jesus was crucified by a GREAT deal of reasosn, reducing it to Him claiming to be Emmanuel, is both rejecting History and the Word of GOD Himself.

Besides, The crucifixion of Jesus WAS part of GOD's Plan... God sent His son to Earth to die for the sins of The Worls... The Roman and Jewsish Temple Priests were just pawns in God's plan.

So, do you still wish to proceed with your tired arguments that Jesus never claimed to be God?

I sure do... Sorry, but read the verse again... Read them in CONTEXT.

See the "IS Jesus GOD ?" "test" was used during the Inquisition and than later by Luther... Peopl became so terrified to answer correctly, that THE TRUTH was drowned and twisted to keep the Chruch Control going.

Back than if you said "Jesus was the son of God" you would guarantee your place in witch pile of flames...

Thats how The church attempted to ERASE the Truth about Jesus, throu FEAR.

To understand thta Jesus is THE SON OF GOD, and not God Himself, doesnt take away form the meaning, and faith, and Power of The gospel... it just makes it True and Easier to understand...

Truth IS EASY... Lies are complicated...like The 3 God's in one...that makes no sense to anyone, and in fact you have wondered it yourself, but you were too scared, and refuted those thoughts, thinking it was "The Devil"... It wasnt the Devil...it was The Holy Spirit trying to tell you that you are making something simple way to complicated.

Keep going around calling people demons, it sure shows how much you are filled with the "love of Jesus".... kind of reminds me of a movie with Mady Moore called "saved", as were she throws a Bible at a girls back as she hystericaly screems " I AM FILLED WHIT JESUS LOVE !!!"

Originally posted by slymattb
God says you have to follow him by faith.

No, a bunch of guys wearing robes point to ancient books that claim that. God has never bothered to tell me in a credible way. Of course if he did, then no faith would be required.

Originally posted by slymattb
And that if you ask him for a sign for his liveing, he will give you none.

...except that there's plenty of evidence of a worldwide flood and a 6000 year old earth, thus proving the Bible, but god doesn't provide proff, but the flood is proof ... (head explodes)

Originally posted by slymattb
What if god did prove he was here to you. What would you do????????????

Nothing, unless he told me to. I suppose then I'd weight the consequences of failure to comply.

Originally posted by slymattb
So what would you do??????? most likely nothing because your faith is weak, your faith would still be weak, even if there we proof.

Please don't insult me by implying I have any degree of faith. The concept of faith is repugnant.

BaasteNoir
First of, you are bearing false witness, by calling me or anyone else a demon without proof...the arrogance, selfrighteousness, nastiness, and aove all lack of respect and love is typical of someone who belongs to the OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) cult...

Anyone who can read my post and understands rudimentary English can clearly see that I did not call you a Demon. I simply gave and introduction to the history behind the attacks on the Word of God. The cult that you refer to as OSAS is quite large indeed and I’m thankful to God that I’m considered a member in His standing. We come from every tribe, tongue and nation to proclaim that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh and that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life!

As far as my salvation is concerned I rest comfortably at night on the finished work and the shed blood of Christ Jesus. Praise and honor and glory are his forever and ever, Amen.

BaastetNoir Its not a lie... the Bible says " for God so loved the world, that he offered is only begotten son" its does NOT say "for God so loved the world that he offered himself in the flesh"

Jesus Christ was indeed the only begotten Son of God. This term describes the unique relationship of the Son of God with God the Father. As God, Jesus existed with the Father from before time itself. Jesus was there at creation and has been a part of the Godhead from everlasting to everlasting. He is worthy of worship and praise. The concept of the trinity is well established in the Word of God. The Jews of his time believed that he claimed to be God and they killed him for it. Jesus could have stopped the process that insured his death at any time by simply stating that he was anything other than God manifest in the flesh but he did not. Instead he held the line for our sakes and suffered so that we would have his shed blood to cover our sins.

BaastetNoir are you by chance a Jehovah’s Witness? Do you read your scriptures from the corrupt, “New World Translation?” If not, who taught you to read the scriptures so out of context that you would hold fast to the heretical belief that Jesus is not God?

I noticed that you cut up the scripture I quoted in some places to try and gather strength for your arguments. Your argument is still dead in the water and anyone not predisposed to believe the lies that you call doctrine will clearly see the truth behind the claimed and recognized divinity of Jesus Christ.

BaastetNoir See the "IS Jesus GOD ?" "test" was used during the Inquisition and than later by Luther... Peopl became so terrified to answer correctly, that THE TRUTH was drowned and twisted to keep the Chruch Control going. Back than if you said "Jesus was the son of God" you would guarantee your place in witch pile of flames... Thats how The church attempted to ERASE the Truth about Jesus, throu FEAR.

When a man or woman was taken before the Church of Rome and their, “holy” inquisition they were asked several questions not just one. The primary purpose of that ungodly and wicked tribunal was to determine if the individual in question followed the teachings of Roman Catholicism. They wanted to insure that the individual was 100% in line with the Pope and his authority. You could be tortured and murdered in many ways and for holding to anything that strayed from the, “pure” teachings of Rome. I’ll let you in on a little history lesson, far more true Christians were slaughtered in the inquisition than any other class type. History bears out that for every Witch that was killed hundreds of true Christians were also killed. Roman Catholicism is not true Christianity. The Pope wanted absolute power and obedience to him alone. Anyone or any doctrine that stood in his way was open season for the inquisitional authorities.

That you would try and tie this clear evil to what I believe is without merit. I’m not a Roman Catholic. I despise many of the Catholic teachings and give no reverence to the Pope whatsoever.

BaastetNoir To understand thta Jesus is THE SON OF GOD, and not God Himself, doesnt take away form the meaning, and faith, and Power of The gospel... it just makes it True and Easier to understand...

It not only takes away the meaning of the gospel, it destroys it completely. I fear for you BaastetNoir. Your denial of the Godhood of Jesus Christ leaves you to bear the weight of your sin. Jesus desires to carry that burden for you but you will not have it. Hell and the Lake of Fire await you BaastetNoir. I wish there was something I could do to change that fact for you but I cannot. Reading the things you wrote grieves my heart deeply but I can only do so much.

As for the other readers of this post Jesus Christ warned us that in the last days there would be false teachings and false prophets. BaastetNoir is one of the many people who has teachings, if accepted, lead to death and eternal separation from God. Don’t be fooled, Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh!

Machine





[edit on 15-8-2005 by Machine]

Originally posted by Machine
Anyone who can read my post and understands rudimentary English can clearly see that I did not call you a Demon. I simply gave and introduction to the history behind the attacks on the Word of God. The cult that you refer to as OSAS is quite large indeed and I’m thankful to God that I’m considered a member in His standing. We come from every tribe, tongue and nation to proclaim that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh and that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life!

Like you said ANYONE who can understand rudimentary English can CLERALY see you write "Satans and his Ords of Demons", well once i was one the people answering thsi subject I mus assume, once you did not name names, that you are referring to me as well... now the "if the shoe fits" is also a favorite of OSAS cult members... it doesnt work with me either.
Admit you were referring to EVERYONE who said Jesus was not God, but yes the Son of Gos.
You're a big boy, no need to backtrack.

As far as my salvation is concerned I rest comfortably at night on the finished work and the shed blood of Christ Jesus. Praise and honor and glory are his forever and ever, Amen.

Really ? Well good for you, I guess thats how you justify going around pointing fingers at everyone who disagress with you. Anyway, Jesus said "Mys heep hear my voice AND FOLLOW ME", he also warned the Churches that they were in sin and their names would be erased from the book of Life if they did not repent and straightened up... That doesnt sound like "guarantee nothing", and it surelly doesnt mention Salvation by Faith and Blood alone, but you go ahead and believe whatever distortion of the Protestant Church you want. I'm sure you are also waiting for you "Guaranteed" Pre- Trib Rapture. You won't be able to say you weren't warned.

Jesus Christ was indeed the only begotten Son of God. This term describes the unique relationship of the Son of God with God the Father. As God, Jesus existed with the Father from before time itself. Jesus was there at creation and has been a part of the Godhead from everlasting to everlasting.

and I agree, but that only prooves that Jesus is THe SOn of God, not god himself...or God in the Flesh (thats man made).

We can say Jesus is the SOn Of God and carries the Spirit of God, but that different than "God in the Flesh"

He is worthy of worship and praise.

Thats also man made, Jesus said pray to my Father in Heaven, Worship Him and Follow Me. TWO different things.

The concept of the trinity is well established in the Word of God.

Trinity is man made. GodHead is Biblical and there are difference between the both.

The Jews of his time believed that he claimed to be God and they killed him for it.

Jesus was killed because that was God's Plan, the reason is not important.
God's plan was that Jesus would be crucified for the sins of the Wolrd, so people can choose Him as Savior. He would have been cruxified anyway, either by claming to be Emmanuel or by kicking the money changers out of the Temple. At the priest eyes, and the Roman Governor Jesus was a trouble maker, that could cause an uproar, and therefore had to be "silenced". The fact that he said he was Emmanuel was just the excuse they needed. And all of the above was part of god's plan.

Jesus could have stopped the process that insured his death at any time by simply stating that he was anything other than God manifest in the flesh but he did not. Instead he held the line for our sakes and suffered so that we would have his shed blood to cover our sins.

The only way Jesus could have stopped the process, would have been if he had refused his mission at the Guarden. When he accepted it there was no Stopping. you should know that.

BaastetNoir are you by chance a Jehovah’s Witness?

Oh my Lord.... that is so pathetically typical... LOL... No I'm not part of the JW cult or any cult for that matter ...not even the OSAS Baptist cult.

Do you read your scriptures from the corrupt, “New World Translation?” If not, who taught you to read the scriptures so out of context that you would hold fast to the heretical belief that Jesus is not God?

No Machine... all I have is the good Ole KJV, and no one TAUGHT me ... its called reading, reading without brain washing. In fact Machine, you should try to read without the fear of condemnation of your Pastor, you know mans wrath has no power, right ?... It gives you freedom and Peace of Spirit.

I noticed that you cut up the scripture I quoted in some places to try and gather strength for your arguments.

Hmmmmm... NO I DID NOT dear Machine... If anything i abreviated your words. anyone can scroll back and see that i posted the same scritpure that you did. I do not need silly tricks to make my point. The Bible makes it for me. And its also typical of a member of the OSAS cult to accuse people of things, when they are cornered by facts.

But i guess when you believe in Guarantee Salvations, and Guaranteed Raptures, and Guaranteed whatevers, you can just go around accusing people of whatever crosses their mind...

Wouldnt it be easier if you just admit, that you could be wrong?
I mean , i didnt have to accuse you od altering posts to make my point, so why do you ? Specially when you know that i didnt. anyone can go back and see tthe original posts. So, you're tick to suggest that I was altering the post with third intentions is flat out busted.

Glorious

Your argument is still dead in the water and anyone not predisposed to believe the lies that you call doctrine will clearly see the truth behind the claimed and recognized divinity of Jesus Christ.

Who said Jesus wasnt Divine ? If we are assuming the Bible is true, than you must assume that Jesus is Divine for He is the son of God.
The fact that Jesus is DIVINE doesnt make him God. One thing doesnt make the other. Can't you see the difference ?

When a man or woman was taken before the Church of Rome and their, “holy” inquisition they were asked several questions not just one. The primary purpose of that ungodly and wicked tribunal was to determine if the individual in question followed the teachings of Roman Catholicism. They wanted to insure that the individual was 100% in line with the Pope and his authority. You could be tortured and murdered in many ways and for holding to anything that strayed from the, “pure” teachings of Rome. I’ll let you in on a little history lesson, far more true Christians were slaughtered in the inquisition than any other class type. History bears out that for every Witch that was killed hundreds of true Christians were also killed. Roman Catholicism is not true Christianity. The Pope wanted absolute power and obedience to him alone. Anyone or any doctrine that stood in his way was open season for the inquisitional authorities.

That you would try and tie this clear evil to what I believe is without merit. I’m not a Roman Catholic. I despise many of the Catholic teachings and give no reverence to the Pope whatsoever.

You forgot to mention Luther the father of the OSAS cult. He used the same tactics, to install his reign of twisted scripture and fear. Why is it that you will so fast point the finger at the "Church of Rome", and the so called "Holy" inqusition, and their Pope, but choose to forget about LUTHER ?

How many women and men did Luther wrongly burn to the stake using exactly the same tactics and questioning ?? Or are you by any chance suggesting that Luther's burning were the REALLY Holy ones ? ... typical....

Did you know one of Luthers favorite tactics was to hold a person under water for 10 minutes or more and "if" they drowned he would conclude they were demosn and witches. He also enjoyed branding people with burning hot iron crosses, like catle... and "IF" the burning Hot iron burned peoples skin...theye "were demons and wicthes".

What a Godly man the founder/father of the OSAS cult was. He also belived a guaranted Salvation you know ? that explains alot.

It not only takes away the meaning of the gospel, it destroys it completely. I fear for you BaastetNoir. Your denial of the Godhood of Jesus Christ leaves you to bear the weight of your sin. Jesus desires to carry that burden for you but you will not have it. Hell and the Lake of Fire await you BaastetNoir. I wish there was something I could do to change that fact for you but I cannot. Reading the things you wrote grieves my heart deeply but I can only do so much.

:shk:... I have no idea of how you got to that conclusion? You know there is something called Repentance? When you humble yourself to God and Jesus and repent of your sins, you are forgivened.

But thats not something you do ONLY once , as you believe. Its a Walk... a Walk with God. I dont have a burden of sin... God knows my Heart and thats all I need to know.

In fact you should fear for yourself the most, because if there is anything you can change in this world is YOURSLEF... anyone else is out of your hands. You want to believe that just becasue a couple of Years ago you said the sinners prayer and that all good form than on? Go ahead.. thats not what the Bible says.

You are worried about my sin? hmmm... how about yours? Isnt that more important?

Teaching twisted and flaud doctrine is a sin as well you know ?

Have you ever noticed that "Believing Jesus is the Son of God" (just has the Bible says) is NOT part of the Seven Deadly sisn nor it is against the 10 Holy commadements.

But glutony (overweight) is ... and many preachers, pastors and followers of the OSAS cult and Church of Rome are guilty of that sin... but thats a "hush, hush" thing, right

And i could go on forever about other people's sins, but those are none of my business... Their God's business.

Salvation

As for the other readers of this post Jesus Christ warned us that in the last days there would be false teachings and false prophets. BaastetNoir is one of the many people who has teachings, if accepted, lead to death and eternal separation from God. Don’t be fooled, Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh!

Machine

Well of course, my "teachings and beleifs" have to be the wrong ones...there could be no chance in freezing Hell, that "godly, Jesus Love Filled" Machine could be the one who is WRONG, right ?

Maybe the scripture was referring TO THE OSAS cult,??? ever thought of that ?

See , there is something about the meaning of words, that doenst work right...

1 ) "Jesus is God manifested in the flesh", thats one thing... that means, like I said before, that the Spirit of God showed Itself throu Jesus,... The Holy Spirit

2 ) "Jesus is God"...is just plain wrong.

The two are different. I can understand #1, but #2 is just plain wrong.


Its really very simple Machine, you want to belive Once Saved Always Saved is Biblical...knock yourself out.

You want to believe Jesus is God, knock yourself out.

Free will gives you the power of doing as you wish, but remember you can only blame yourself.

As for myslef, the Bible says "warn them twice and dust your feet"..... therefore...I am dusting my feet and miving on.

Till we meet again.....................................................

Time and energy expended with zero results. Have I ever planted a single seed in these forums or do I simply cast pearls before swine?

Time will tell...



Machine

My point again is for to answer these questions, if they say God is jesus.By the way trinity is not well instablished in the bible. In fact it was a matter of opinion on everything people say proofs that trinity is in the bible.

Now to the point, if Jesus is God why in John 17 is Jesus is seen praying to God. Not only that Jesus continues to call him father. You can not Call God father, when you are the father. many times Jesus is seen praying to God and not himself. you can not pray( or talk to some) when you are that someone.

Second Jesus says (why call ME good, when GOD THE FATHER is only good. 3rd Jesusu says ( no man nor SON OF MAN know the timing of christ. only GOD THE FATHER KNOW THE TIMEING OF CHRIST.
Here Jesus points that fact he does'nt know the timing of his own coming. ONLY GOD THE FATHER knows the timing of his coming.

4th important revelations 4-5 says God is siting on the throne holding the Scroll Of Seven Seals in his right hand. JESUS COMES AND TAKES THE SCROLL OUT OF GOD'S HAND. Showing two different bodies, not one body, but two.

How does one believe that Jesus is God answer these scrptures???? And dont give me these answers.

machine
[Quote]The problem we as human beings often have when we consider this is that we have a very limited perspective of time and space.
We are limited to four dimensions, three of space and one of time. God does not exist with these extreme limitations. This is why God can and does exist in three separate forms but that each of these forms are one. However, what we cannot see because of our limitations is that the three spots continue into a third dimension of space upward. The three spots are actually three fingers connected to one hand. It turns out that the spots were not lying when they claimed that they were three yet one[Quote]

He tryed to answer me by telling me we dont understand who God is because of the limitations of dimension. If you can understand so can I. second this does not stop the fact that Jesus was found taking the scroll out of GOD'S HANDS.

helen670
[Quote]When God took flesh and became man(for the sins of the world)He also was perfect man and perfect God......In order to teach us how to be in this world, He used prayer,fasting and Verses from the Old Testament to prove who He was.....and those that were humble and willing to truly listen, understood who Jesus Christ truly was...He had to pray like this to give us an example of how we should also be.....
For those that thought otherwise and did not truly listen to Jesus Christ, had their own ideas of who the Messiah would be[Quote]

I seen people use this answer so say Jesus is not praying, but proveing who God is, and to be a example( to show others what they should do). Jesus was being a example, but he was praying TO HIS FATHER. I think you should go back and read Jesus's prayers. John 17 Jesus says FATHER, THE TIME HAS COME. Jesus is calling God his Father. And if Jesus was doing what you said helen Jesus was talking to himself. Fakeing to the world that God is in heaven. When in fact Jesus is on earth. By saying ( Father, the time has come) He would be lieing to those who saw him,and read the gospels. He's lieing by fakeing to the world that he praying to someone in heaven. when he was talking with himslef.




[edit on 15-8-2005 by slymattb]

slymattb

Here is 2 verses that answer the question, without any doubt... noone can change this no metter what they say, no metter what church dogma they are attached to or brain washed by...


Peter said to Jesus:

MAT:16:16 - "Thou art the Christ, The Son of the Leaving God."

Jesus replyed:

MAT:16:17 - "Peter, Blessed are you because men have not revealed this to you, but my Father in Heaven."

and God The Father in Heaven also said " Thsi is my son, Listne to him"

Now if people want to go around and twist sutch easy and simple words to understand, into something that makes no sens, and that The Devil has used to exterminate the Real Christinas... let them...Free Will.

BaastetNoir
These scripture only prove what I have said. They prove God is in heaven. So he cant pray to himself. They even say That Jesus calls God the father. you can not the father, when you are the son. The father can not be the son, when he is the father. God bless you for your scriptures.

Originally posted by slymattb
BaastetNoir
These scripture only prove what I have said. They prove God is in heaven. So he cant pray to himself. They even say That Jesus calls God the father. you can not the father, when you are the son. The father can not be the son, when he is the father. God bless you for your scriptures.

My point exactly, i totally agree with you... thats why i cannot understand how people can say Jesus is GOD, when clearly the scripture states that He is THE SON OF GOD.

Originally posted by Machine
or do I simply cast pearls before swine?

You do realize that's a pretty insulting thing to say don't you? You are not required to type everything going through your mind.

Matthew 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

The Bible is now being considered in many political circles as hate speech. I simply quoted a portion of scripture that I felt was appropriate. To be honest, there are countless threads in this forum that deeply offend me but such is the way of things. If you wish to stand for anything then you must be prepared to be offended. I’ve been called many unpleasant things on these forums but in Christ I’m tough enough to endure it. If quoting a portion of Bible scripture offends someone I only ask this, “what’s new under the sun?” God’s Word is like sweet honey on the tongues of the saved but to the unsaved it burns like a red-hot piece of coal.

As for the relevance of the passage in question I quoted it because God in his Holy Word has warned Christians that they should be careful to whom they give his truths. In the example above Jesus warns that some who hear his truth become enraged at the sound of it and may very well turn on the preacher and tear him to pieces.

I try to keep this passage in mind when I take the Truth of God into the world.

John 15:18-21
If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord.
If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

To be a Christian, bold for Jesus Christ, in these final years of human history is not for the spiritually timid.


Machine

BaastetNoir Great scriptures and defending our point in this thread. God Bless and walk in his spirit.

Machine you have tryed to make find points, but I have seen you judge others here on this thread. By saying you are saved, and living us out. You are Judgeing others. It not your right, only Gods right. If you look we deffended our point with Bible scriptures. If you can not deffend your points against our scriptures with scriputres then whats the point. It means your not reading everything everone has said in this thread. You still being one of the most people deffending your side of the post, did not even try to answer my proofs (FROM SCRIPUTRES) that Jesus is not God Only his pure seed with God spirit. My scriptures are powerfull and proveing my point. God back and read, then please try to deffend. Ifg you dont believe in my believe that Jesus is not God. I say God Bless to ya, walk in his spirit. I will never say any one is damn, because its not my choice. Your speaking trying to work for God. Thats what he wants. But because you dont like what you hear, does not mean you should not continue on this post.

Slymattb
Machine you have tryed to make find points, but I have seen you judge others here on this thread. By saying you are saved, and living us out. You are Judgeing others. It not your right, only Gods right.

I’ve made several points on this thread and backed them up with clear scripture. You may not agree with what I’ve wrote but you must acknowledge that I have made a case for the divinity of Jesus Christ even if you feel it lacks merit.

Have you ever told someone, “Do not judge unless ye be judged?” This is a common theme among the uneducated in God’s Word. Jesus Christ never commanded any of his followers not to judge the rightness or wrongness of another person’s actions. On the contrary, he commands us to rightly judge in all things. The only type of judgment we are not to make is on the final state of a man’s salvation. I cannot know for sure if you or anyone else will come to accept the truth of God’s Word or not. I can however point out the path someone is on and tell them plainly, “If you do not accept certain truths of God you will not enter heaven and are doomed to hellfire.”

Jesus preached about hell and wrong doctrine, the apostles did the same. For the last two thousand years men of God have been preaching the gospel and defending the faith. I’ll continue to do the same knowing that I’m right before God in defending his truth.

John 7:24
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

This link will help you to see my point concerning judgment.
www.christiandoctrine.net...

slymattb
If you look we deffended our point with Bible scriptures. If you can not deffend your points against our scriptures with scriputres then whats the point. It means your not reading everything everone has said in this thread.

That’s not true. I gave a great deal of scripture in support of my position. I have also read each post on this thread, some of them several times.

slymattb
You still being one of the most people deffending your side of the post, did not even try to answer my proofs (FROM SCRIPUTRES) that Jesus is not God Only his pure seed with God spirit.

I may not have directed my responses to you personally but I did give a defense of my position. The Holy Bible has huge amounts of evidence that support Jesus Christ as being both God and the Son of God. Jesus Christ is God and worthy of worship and praise. I only listed a few scriptures to support this position but I could list much more.

slymattb
My scriptures are powerfull and proveing my point. God back and read, then please try to deffend. Ifg you dont believe in my believe that Jesus is not God. I say God Bless to ya, walk in his spirit. I will never say any one is damn, because its not my choice. Your speaking trying to work for God. Thats what he wants. But because you dont like what you hear, does not mean you should not continue on this post.

Your position is a heretical lie and damning to anyone who accepts it. I stand on a solid foundation when I go forth into the world and preach the gospel in truth. There are certain basic right beliefs concerning the orthodoxy of the Christian faith that I will defend and preach all the days of my life.

Hell is real. The Lake of Fire is real. I don’t want anyone including you to spend one moment in that place of eternal torment so I must preach the truth. I’m not here on this forum to toot my own horn or strengthen my own position. I’m here for you and anyone else who has fallen in error with the gospel message.

I walked away from this post because my mission was complete. I gave scripture that supports the right view of Jesus Christ and briefly debated this point with others on this post. I cannot force you to accept the truth I can only preach it and pray that God will soften your hard heart to hear his truth and receive eternal salvation.

As for this post I will not respond further on this subject. My mission is complete.


Machine


[edit on 17-8-2005 by Machine]

Machine

slymattb
My scriptures are powerfull and proveing my point...

Your position is a heretical lie and damning to anyone who accepts it. I stand on a solid foundation when I go forth into the world and preach the gospel in truth.

...microwaves some popcorn to enjoy watching the Christians trying to out-Bible, out-faith, and out-shout eachother. Back to the show...

Jesus Christ is God!

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Who and What is the WORD(LOGOS) ?

The WORD was MADE FLESH?

How can the WORD become Flesh?

The Word is GOD.......which WAS from the beginning of creation.......Let US make man in OUR image!

""And God said: Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them" (Gen 1:26-27).

Here we have LET US make......who is US?
There is the Father,The Son(WORD) And the Holy Spirit(breath of God) .
quote///The Lord "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen. 2:7).

God gave the first man the name Adam, which means "taken from the earth."

3. How God Created the First People.

For since death was by a tree, it was fitting that life and resurrection should be bestowed by a tree(6).
Jacob, when He worshipped the top of Joseph's staff,
was the first to image the Cross, and when he blessed his sons with crossed hands(7) he made most clearly the sign of the cross.
Likewise(8) also did Moses' rod, when it smote the sea in the figure of the cross and saved Israel, while it overwhelmed Pharaoh in the depths; likewise also the hands stretched out crosswise and routing Amalek; and the bitter water made sweet by a tree,
and the rock rent and pouring forth streams of water(9), and the rod that meant for Aaron the dignity of the high priesthood(1): and the serpent lifted in triumph on a tree as though it were dead(2),
the tree bringing salvation to those who in faith saw their enemy dead,
just as Christ was nailed to the tree in the flesh of sin which yet knew no sin(3). The mighty Moses cried(4),
You will see your life hanging on the tree before your eyes, and Isaiah likewise, I have spread out my hands all the day unto a faithless and rebellious people(5).
But may we who worship this(6) obtain a part in Christ the crucified. Amen.

more below....
CHAPTER IX.


In the Old Testament God could not be seen.......BUT His presence was felt by the Prophets and Holy men///
eg/
quote///
Once, on a hot day, Abraham sat under the shadow of the oak, at the entrance of his tent, and saw Three Strangers standing before him. Abraham loved to receive strangers. He immediately got up and ran to meet Them, bowed to the earth, and invited Them to rest at his home under the tree and to strengthen Themselves with food.

The strangers came to his abode. According to the custom of that time, Abraham washed Their feet, gave Them bread which had just been prepared by his wife Sarah, set forth oil, milk, and the best fatted calf, and called Them to eat.READ MORE BELOW.....to fully understand!

14. The Appearance of God to Abraham

ALSO HERE

The offering of Isaac in sacrifice was a prefiguration to men of the Saviour, Who, being the Son of God, would be offered by His Father as a sacrifice for the sins of all men by death on the Cross.

16. The Offering of Isaac as a Sacrifice.

All of the above only prove that God so loved the world that He Himself took FLESH and became MAN.......The Son of God .....in order for all to come to know God as they were meant to......SIN is what seperates us from God.and which Seperated the first people ....Only through Jesus Christ , babtised in the name of the Father,Son and Holy Spirit can one be accepted again..
Jesus Christ was not accepted by all because they did not believe He was who He said He was......
quote///
“The Jews gathered around him, saying,
"How long will you keep us in suspense?
If you are the Christ(meaning the annointed one), tell us plainly.” Jesus answered,
"I did tell you, but you do not believe.
The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me,
but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
I give them eternal life (1), and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand (2).
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand (3).
"I and the Father are one." (4) (John 10:24-30)....here Jesus says HE and the Father is ONE!
(1) Christ claims the power to give eternal life.

(2) Christ claims the power to preserve His own sheep so that no one can snatch them out of his hand, thus equating His power to that of the Father, who also preserves the sheep so that no one is able to snatch them out of His hand in (3).

(4) Christ summarises His divine claims into a succinct statement, declaring oneness with the Father. One in what? It can only be one in power, intent, will, and hence essence, for He makes this claim after claiming the very attributes of God:

What does God in the Old Testament have to say about the very attributes Christ just claimed for Himself?

"See now that I myself am He!
There is no god besides me (1). I put to death and bring to life (2), I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver them out of my hand (3)." Deuteronomy 32:39

(1) God declares His exclusiveness. He then follows His declaration of being the exclusive God by mentioning some of those things which define His exclusiveness: (2) The ability to give life (3) The ability to preserve so none is able to snatch out of His hands.

Therefore we have further explicit confirmation that Christ was claiming the very exclusive attributes of God Himself, and hence the only logical and contextual explanation of His claim to oneness with the Father in John 10:30.

God’s Word is The Son.........Read/ John 1:1-14

quote///
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore[c] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Matt. 28

The Unity of the Trinity, His one-God-ness, is expressed by gathering Father Son and Spirit together under one Name. Iow [i]one Name is St. Matthews way of saying consubstantial or the one God. Yet naming the One God as father, Son and Holy Spirit, St. Matthew also gives expression to the three-ness of God. For God is not Monad nor Triad; God is Tri-Unity or Uni-Trinity.

Further, baptism, is to take place in this Threepersoned God's Name, no other way is specified, since baptism in any other god or gods name or names would be idolatry and a demonic fraud to the real. The only salvation to be found is in Jesus Christ, by having faith in Him, confessing Him, in baptism. Thats where salvation begins. Salvation in and by Jesus Christ is a union with the Holy Trinity in baptism.
(Thanks S_N_B )

quote///
"As the Father knows Me,
even so I know the Father" they are equal.
How can a man be equal with God unless He is God as well?
"but if I do, though you do not believe Me,
believe the works, that you may know and believe[a] that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”

How can Christ say He is in God unless He is God?
I can say that God is within me, but as I am a mere human, I can never say I am within God.

When Christ says "I am" in answer to the question 'are you the Christ?"
He is saying the name for God, I AM WHO IS.
Christ is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.
The Father is God.
They are one Godhead, three Persons, in an eternal bond of Love, for God is Love, and how can one love if one has nothing to love?
(Thanks Choirfiend)

IX
helen

First, I'd like to thank the friend who invited me over to this thread. It's both an honor and a priviledge to be asked to give a viewpoint.

I think we're going to see a 50/50 split in the frame of thought in this one. I suspect some of it has to do with the church we attend. This is fine, normal and healthy. Reason is, the Bible gives us some morsels to chew on that we clearly are not capable of fully understanding until the day after our last here on earth. So, let's discuss and enjoy as brother and sisters without raised voices or quickened pulses. What better way to glorify God than to sit around a table and talking about Him. Well, my fellowship, I think most of both sides have been said very well, but would like to include a bit from another thread that seems more appropriate here than the topic I was previously engaged in:

I personally think it would be a mistake to limit God to our physical understanding of body and spirit (especially when we barely understand anything about the spirit at all). Jesus didn't want people to worship him, hence his constant pointing up, however we know he was not "just a man" since he was conceived by the Holy Spirit, performed miracles, taught a lot about first-hand knowledge of God, came back from the dead, and says he and the Father are one. The result then, is that there is a unique relationship that is neither human nor entirely God, but rather him being a part of God. What does that mean?

Best answer is as the apostles describe it from Acts to Revelation. My personal favorite is Paul's version in Corinthians 12:12 "The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ." He even goes into how the this applies to the church, being a part of Christ, just as Christ himself explained during the last supper.

Friends, please do not be discouraged by trying to reconcile our human knowledge of physics, chemistry and biology with the the incredible power of God. We've got a long, long way to go in understanding how He works...hence why He's God and we're confused by a tax form.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.

[edit on 19-8-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
My personal favorite is Paul's version in Corinthians 12:12 "The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ." He even goes into how the this applies to the church, being a part of Christ, just as Christ himself explained during the last supper.

Saint, this passage is not discussing the deity of Jesus, it is discussing the church. The church is the body of Christ from Paul's perspective.

Originally posted by spamandham
Saint, this passage is not discussing the deity of Jesus, it is discussing the church. The church is the body of Christ from Paul's perspective.

Let's read on then: "For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body-whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free-and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."

Now we can see the 'one-ness' of the Spirit, of Jesus, and of the church. Need more?

How about the great commissioning found at the end of Matthew by Jesus himself: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."- Matthew 28:18

Here we can see a relationship called the trinity working together a body. He did not say "Baptize them in the name of the Father. After that, baptize them in the name of the Spirit. Then baptize them in my name. Then, they'll have all three separate pieces..." and intentionally so. These three move together as one spiritual body.

There's gobs of info about this relationship throughout the New Testament. I think the best way is to read through the whole New Testament, making special note of instances like these to put together the pieces and make an assessment.

[edit on 19-8-2005 by saint4God]