IS Jesus God or the Son of God???

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by spamandham
Saint, this passage is not discussing the deity of Jesus, it is discussing the church. The church is the body of Christ from Paul's perspective.

Let's read on then: "For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body-whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free-and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."

Now we can see the 'one-ness' of the Spirit, of Jesus, and of the church. Need more?

I don't know how you can read that and interpret it as a reference to a physical human body of Jesus. Paul viewed Christ as pure spirit, incarnated by the church itself, not by a virgin birth as the gospels written much later teach. The passage you chose spells this out. Baptism does not make you part of the flesh of a physical human body of Jesus, it makes you a member of the body of the church.

Originally posted by saint4God
How about the great commissioning found at the end of Matthew by Jesus himself: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."- Matthew 28:18

By the time the gospels were written, Jesus was believed to have been a historical human figure. That does not imply Paul believed the same thing.

Originally posted by spamandham
I don't know how you can read that and interpret it as a reference to a physical human body of Jesus. Paul viewed Christ as pure spirit, incarnated by the church itself, not by a virgin birth as the gospels written much later teach. The passage you chose spells this out. Baptism does not make you part of the flesh of a physical human body of Jesus, it makes you a member of the body of the church.

Just a few pieces to a bigger picture.

Originally posted by saint4God
By the time the gospels were written, Jesus was believed to have been a historical human figure. That does not imply Paul believed the same thing.

Kind of ironic. I'm reading Ephesians currently and happened to recently read a few applicable passages: "In him (Jesus) we have redemption through his blood..." (Chapter 1, verse 7) and "But now in Christ Jesus who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ." (Chapter 2, verse 13). Now, I don't know how many spirits you know of capable of bleeding, but I've never heard of a single case. Oh wait, it's just a figure of speech ain't it?


[edit on 19-8-2005 by saint4God]

Spam I think you missed parts of the scripture chorinthians 12 v 12-13 Says The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts, and thoughall its parts are many, they form one body. SO IT IS WITH CHRIST. For we were all baptized by one spirit into none body.

The scipture says how people are in Christ and can be one with God. We all are units.(pons, or warroirs of God) Though we have many parts and are made of many things, we still have a body made from God.(according to the Bible) It also so says so it is with christ, pointing to the fact it is the same with God and Jesus.

I do not believe in trinity, by scripture I believe Jesus is one with God. But is seprate in a way. Jesus is God's pure son, plus he has the spirit of God. And all power aand authority has been given to him. All these things make Jesus more one with God. But Jesus and god have two different bodies. It says so in scripture. Two worship more than one God is a sin, Thou salt worship one God. HAVE NO OTHER GOD'S BEFORE ME. g I wounder what that means???

Originally posted by saint4God
Kind of ironic. I'm reading Ephesians currently and happened to recently read a few applicable passages: "In him (Jesus) we have redemption through his blood..." (Chapter 1, verse 7) and "But now in Christ Jesus who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ." (Chapter 2, verse 13). Now, I don't know how many spirits you know of capable of bleeding, but I've never heard of a single case. Oh wait, it's just a figure of speech ain't it?

It's not a figure of speech. It's a reference to a spiritual sacrifice. Try this one on for size:

2 Timothy
8So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 11And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher. 12That is why I am suffering as I am.

Paul's Christ made his sacrifice before the beginning of time. The appearance of Christ to Paul revealed the secret, and Paul sees himself as the one who was appointed to tell everyone else about the revelation. Notice that Paul talks about a revelation as the result of the appearance of Christ, rather than talking about a recent ministry of Christ.

In all of Paul's writings, he never once refers to anything associated with the ministry of Jesus; no quotes from Jesus, no discussion about his journeys, no discussion of his miracles, etc. Doesn't that seem odd to you if Jesus was a historical human in Paul's mind?

Paul saw Jesus as having defeated evil before the beginning of time in the spiritual domain, which is a concept derived from the books of Enoch. As such he was the Logos, the intermediary between the unapproachable Platonic god and the physical world. But, he was not a human intermediary, he was spiritual. His physical manifestation is the church itself, referred to as the body of Christ.

Spam what does the Bible say???? on your opinion does the bible say Jesus is God??????????

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body -- whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free -- and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Colossians 3:11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. (Return to the article.)
Matthew 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." (Return to article.)

rest here

1 Corinthians 11:18-20 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you. 20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper. (Return to article.)

The church is likened to that of a tree with many branches......one body(church)but many branches(MEMBERS ,THE FAITHFUL)...Since Christ is not divided neither are the members......there are many but all one body.

It is this "new beginning" of Church unity which creates an organic unity rather than a mechanical unification of internally divided persons. Christ Himself likened Church unity to the organic unity of a tree with its branches (cf. Rom. 11:17,24).

more here

IX
helen

Spam what does the Bible say???? on your opinion does the bible say Jesus is God??????????

Jesus Christ being the Son of God........God incarnate...is called a MYSTERY.
It is not based on OPINION.....but based on scripture....

The Son of God.....

Titus 2:13
Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus....

Romans 9:5
Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen...

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come, … This is the true God and eternal life.

Philippians 2:5-7
… Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 20:28
Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God.

Acts 20:28
Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the Church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

1 Timothy 3:16
God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Holy Trinity~Holy Spirit~Church~Tradition~

deeper into Jesus as God

quote///
In the words of the Apostle Paul, "(Christ) being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant" (Philippians 2:6-7).

He took upon Him the FORM of a SERVANT .......God took upon Himself the form of a servant...Son of God.

Thus, for instance, He said to the Jews: "I and My Father are one … He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father … I am in the Father and the Father in Me … all Mine are Thine, and Thine are Mine … We will come unto him and make our abode with him" (John 10:30, 14:9, 14:10, 17:10 and 14:23).
These and other similar expressions all indicate His divine nature. In addition, Christ gradually revealed those characteristics of His which no one but God can possess.
For instance He referred to Himself as the Creator when He said: "My Father worketh hither to, and I work " (John 5:17).
It is significant that the Jews hearing these words wanted to stone Christ as a blasphemer, "because He not only had broken the Sabbath, but said also that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18).
By not correcting their interpretation of His words, the Lord confirmed that they understood Him properly.

Jesus Christ has one Person - that of the Son of God, but two natures - divine and human. In His divine nature He is equal to the Father - eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent, etc.; in His assumed human nature He resembles us in every way: He grew, developed, suffered, rejoiced, vacillated in decisions, and so on.
Christ's human nature includes both the body and the soul. The difference is, that His human nature is totally free of sinful pollution. Since one and the same Christ is simultaneously God and man, the Holy Scriptures refer to Him sometimes as God and other times as a man.
Even more so, sometimes human attributes are assigned to His divinity (1 Cor. 2:8), and divine attributes to His humanity. And there is no contradiction here, since all these attributes belong to the same Person. .

see more below......
Creature or Creator ?

IX
helen

And yet you ignore the fact that Jesus says Matthew 14 v 36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven,NOR THE SON, BUT ONLY THE FATHER.

If Jesus was God he would know the timeing of his comeing. Dieing on the cross Jesus said father why has thou FORSAKEN ME. Saying God why did you forsake me nyour SON. It seams you ignore the fact that God and Jesus have two different bodies. And you say Jesus prayed to show others what they must do. But Jesus was talking to God, praying to God. He was not talking to himself.

Matthew 17 v 5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud envelopedthem, and a voice from the cloud said,this is my SON (son,son,son,son= off spring this is comeing from God's mouth which you will ignore anyway)whom i love, with him I am well pleased. listen to him.

Not only does this show Jesus is on earth, but it shows God is in heaven or in a cloud, whatever you want to think.

Originally posted by spamandham
It's not a figure of speech. It's a reference to a spiritual sacrifice. Try this one on for size:

2 Timothy
8So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 11And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher. 12That is why I am suffering as I am.

Paul's Christ made his sacrifice before the beginning of time. The appearance of Christ to Paul revealed the secret, and Paul sees himself as the one who was appointed to tell everyone else about the revelation. Notice that Paul talks about a revelation as the result of the appearance of Christ, rather than talking about a recent ministry of Christ.

I don't see anything that calls him "spirit only", rather the fact that things have been planned (and so were all of us) from the beginning. Paul was really big on this point of us being pre-selected, whereas Jesus only discussed that he himself with with God in the beginning and that his life was planned. I honestly honestly honestly as a Christian do not know if we as humans were pre-selected as candidates for the kingdom, but am leaning to the idea that there was a plan but we were given the choice to accept or deny that plan.

Endline, I think it'd be most value for each of us to read Acts through Revelation and decide how Jesus' apostles saw him.

Originally posted by spamandham
In all of Paul's writings, he never once refers to anything associated with the ministry of Jesus; no quotes from Jesus, no discussion about his journeys, no discussion of his miracles, etc. Doesn't that seem odd to you if Jesus was a historical human in Paul's mind?

Paul reflected what Jesus said many many times. Almost constantly in fact. In my most recent readings, I'm paying careful attention to anything Paul says that is not what Jesus directly said. This does not mean Paul is not Christ-like, since it's glaringly obvious that he's immitating his master, as we as Christians should all do. Paul set an example, a template how we should be can effectly representing and delivering the Word of God. I used to bash Paul to a small degree because I didn't like the fact that he seemed to "go off on his own" from time to time. Thankfully, after re-reading the gospels then skip right to his books, I'm seeing he's not off the mark as I originally though.

Paul never knew Christ the man, he's made that clear. In fact, Jesus' story of his life, teachings and miracles were evident. Now if he were truly and egotist, he would lie and say he did to make him some kind of more powerful speaker with first hand knowledge of Jesus' life here. Rather, he chose to speak from what he knew. He knew the spirit of God and his son Jesus in the same way that I and every other Christian know (or should know) the spirit. I'd venture to say he knew a good deal more, but I'll say I know some different things he did. Part of the miracle of living in different circumstances and different times. Now, here's the kicker. Despite all these, Paul and I can agree on much! God, Jesus, being faithful, hopeful, truthful, loving, compassionate, doing good, and so on and so on. Paul and I have different solutions for solving problems, but perhaps a sign of the times and circumstances. Nevertheless, we're tied together as brothers who knew each other our whole lives....but me being the younger brother, have much to learn.

Originally posted by spamandham
Paul saw Jesus as having defeated evil before the beginning of time in the spiritual domain, which is a concept derived from the books of Enoch.

I'm gonna disagree. If evil (sin) was already defeated there would be no need for his crucifiction, yes?

Originally posted by spamandham
As such he was the Logos, the intermediary between the unapproachable Platonic god and the physical world. But, he was not a human intermediary, he was spiritual. His physical manifestation is the church itself, referred to as the body of Christ.

How then can the "church" walk across water? There are far too many specifics on the individual to be allegorical in the four books in my mind. I cannot see any compelling or convincing evidence that these are Aesop's fables. I know of people who have no wish to believe that these are just stories to justify talking the morals and applying them without getting personal with God. Why they do this I don't know, because me being of curious mind would have to explore whether or not this God exists if I'm using his advice.

I just want to say one thing and I'll get out of your way. All three of us are brother(s) and sister(s). Are you John 3:16? I'd venture that you'd both say "yes". If yes, then you're part of an eternal family. This question will be answered on the day after our last so to spend the next 40 - 60 years arguing over it is using a lot of energy that can be better placed towards helping people answer more fundamental questions. It is topics like this that causes a non-believing observer to say, "Christians cannot agree among themselves" when in fact, we're just discussing the details. I understand what both of you are saying and cannot disagree with a single Bible verse each of you quote.

Something to consider, I'll leave you to it, but I'm not going to argue a moot point my brothers and sisters. Here's why:

"I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought." - 1 Corinthians 10.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.

[edit on 20-8-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by slymattb
Spam what does the Bible say???? on your opinion does the bible say Jesus is God??????????

I do not view the books of the Bible as a cohesive set, but rather, a disparate set. Some of the writers seemed to have believed Jesus was god incarnate, others didn't. This debate has been going on since the early days of Christianity.

Originally posted by slymattb
Spam I think you missed parts of the scripture chorinthians 12 v 12-13 Says The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts, and thoughall its parts are many, they form one body. SO IT IS WITH CHRIST. For we were all baptized by one spirit into none body.

It's hard to see how Paul could have made his point any clearer. The church is the body of Christ. Corinthians is a discussion about the church, not a discussion about Trinity or even the deity of Jesus.

Originally posted by saint4God
I don't see anything that calls him "spirit only",

In none of Paul's writings does he refer to Jesus as ever being human, or a man, or god in the flesh. You have to push your preconceptions asside to understand Paul's perspective.

Originally posted by saint4God
Paul reflected what Jesus said many many times. Almost constantly in fact. In my most recent readings, I'm paying careful attention to anything Paul says that is not what Jesus directly said.

Paul says many things very similar to what Jesus said, but not once does he ever quote Jesus or attribute those thoughts to Jesus. In several places, Paul refers to the Old Testament to make a point when he could have referred to Jesus own words to make the same point. Doesn't that seem odd to you if Paul was knowledgable about Jesus teachings? Why would Paul not have been familiar with the grand "oral tradition" Christians like to claim existed at the time?

I challenge you to produce a single example of Paul quoting Jesus or acknowledging Jesus in regard to a particular Gospel teaching.

Originally posted by saint4God
Paul never knew Christ the man, he's made that clear. In fact, Jesus' story of his life, teachings and miracles were evident. Now if he were truly and egotist, he would lie and say he did to make him some kind of more powerful speaker with first hand knowledge of Jesus' life here.

I'm not claiming Paul was an egotist trying to glorify himself by denying his knowledge of Jesus, I'm claiming that Paul's Christ is not the same as the Gospel Christ.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by spamandham
Paul saw Jesus as having defeated evil before the beginning of time in the spiritual domain, which is a concept derived from the books of Enoch.

I'm gonna disagree. If evil (sin) was already defeated there would be no need for his crucifiction, yes?

The crucifixion Paul speaks of happened before the beginning of time. It is not the Roman crucifixion on a cross of the Gospels. From Paul's perspective, evil was defeated eternally, but that remained hidden until Paul's revelation. To Paul, grace was a mystery hidden within the Jewish scriptures until he (Paul) was chosen to reveal it.

Originally posted by spamandham
How then can the "church" walk across water?

Perhaps your knowledge of scripture exceeds mine. Where does Paul say anything about Jesus walking on water?

Originally posted by spamandham
It's hard to see how Paul could have made his point any clearer. The church is the body of Christ. Corinthians is a discussion about the church, not a discussion about Trinity or even the deity of Jesus.

I was not trying to say anything about triniy or the deity of Jesus, only that the unit or church is in christ.

[edit on 20-8-2005 by slymattb]

www.lifeofchrist.com...

Mathew and Luke talk of the geneology of Yehoshua ben Yosef.

In order to fullfil prophecy Jesus had to be of blood descent directly from the house of David.

In at least one gospell it is claimed he is of blood relation through his father: Joseph.

If the bible itself claims Joseph is Jesus's father, then the bible must be right. Jesus is the blood offspring of Joseph. Or, he does not fullfill the prophecy of the messiah.

If Jesus is GOD, then we know his geneology from both Luke and Mathew.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
If Jesus is GOD, then we know his geneology from both Luke and Mathew.

Uhm, don't those two geneologies differ?

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
If Jesus is GOD, then we know his geneology from both Luke and Mathew.

Uhm, don't those two geneologies differ?

Yes. They do.

Esoteric/

Mathew and Luke talk of the geneology of Yehoshua ben Yosef.

In order to fullfil prophecy Jesus had to be of blood descent directly from the house of David.

In at least one gospell it is claimed he is of blood relation through his father: Joseph.

If the bible itself claims Joseph is Jesus's father, then the bible must be right. Jesus is the blood offspring of Joseph. Or, he does not fullfill the prophecy of the messiah.

1. According to the prophecies of the Old Testament prophets, the Messiah must belong to the lineage of King David. (II Kings 7:1; Ps. 131:11; Jer. 23:5, 33:16; Ezek. 34:23-24, 37:24).
Clearly, in order to verify the fulfillment of this prophecy it is necessary to have an accurate genealogical record. Knowing the importance of this messianic sign, the Jews kept genealogical records of all the ancestors of David.
These were kept in Bethlehem, where He was born. For this reason, when it came time for the birth of Jesus Christ, Joseph and the Virgin Mary, who were of the lineage of David, had to go from their town of Nazareth to distant Bethlehem, in order to be registered in the genealogical book of the new descendants of this king.
These genealogical records were extant right up until the time of the destruction of Bethlehem. Utilizing them, the Evangelists Matthew and Luke were able to reproduce in their Gospels the complete genealogy of Jesus Christ (Matt. 1, Luke 3), and thereby to prove His generation from King David.

On the threshold of the New Millennium...

Genealogy of The Lord......

For she being pre-ordained by the eternal prescient counsel of God and imaged forth and proclaimed in diverse images and discourses of the prophets through the Holy Spirit, sprang at the pre-determined time from the root of David, according to the promises that were made to him. For the lord hath sworn, He saith in truth to David, He will not turn from it: of the fruit of Thy body will I set upon Thy throne(5).
And again, Once have I sworn by My holiness, that I will not lie unto David. His seed shall endure for ever, and His throne as the sun before Me. It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven(6). And Isaiah says: And there shall come out a rod out of the stem of Jesse and a branch shall grow out of his roots(7).

.NOTE///One ought to remember that it was not the custom of the Hebrews nor of the divine Scripture to give genealogies of women; and the law was to prevent one tribe seeking wives from another(8).
And so since Joseph was descended from the tribe of David and was a just man (for this the divine Gospel testifies),
he would not have espoused(taken as a wife) the holy Virgin contrary to the law; he would not have taken her unless she had been of the same tribe(8a). It was sufficient, therefore, to demonstrate the descent of Joseph.
Read below for more info.
Concerning our Lord's genealogy and concerning the holy Mother of God(4)

IX
helen

helen670,

Great information! I was aware of the corrilation between the geneology of Christ and his mother. Luke seems to elude to Mary being the bloodline in some interpretations, but in most cases ....

The truth is left up to interpretation of what you believe happened over 2,000 years ago. History can be distorted, but the truth can not. no worries.