Crusading americans and their "holy war"

Originally posted by DigitalGrl
This is a pretty simply concept...


Not all christians are fanatics...fundementalist is not the right word. people misuse that word to mean fanatic but if you look it up thats not what it means, just wanted to clarify that really quick.

anyway as i was saying

Not all muslims are fanatics and not all christians are fanatics, im a christian and i dont want to force anyone to believe anything. to really believe something the person has to believe it in their heart, and i cant make someone believe the concept of God in their heart.

it just seems that there are a ton of fanatics because those are the people that draw the most attention. the news doesnt want to put people on that are just sitting at home reading their bible or qu'ran. they put the people on tv that talk about drinking poison at their church services, or sacrificing their children for the jihad.

their are nuts on both sides...and i must say theyequally piss me off.

for 1. when someone is saying they are a christian and then they go screaming in the street about how the end of the world is coming in 4 days and the great satan is a wendy's employee, as a christian myself it makes it harder on me because when someone hears im a christian they think ..."ooo your one of those people that thinks satan is a wendy's employee". and so im automatically considered unintelligent.
and 2. the fanatical muslims piss me off because they are going around bombing people when they should be trying to help their country get out of poverty.....

See all religions have idiots..because the human race consists of idiotic people...

so the game of...your people are more evil than my people.....is stupid.

i think we should be focusing on ourselves and who we are becoming because if we all took our eyes off our neighboor i think we could all find some things that we needed to work on.

Kind Regards,
DigitalGrl




[edit on 10/01/2004 by DigitalGrl]

[edit on 10/01/2004 by DigitalGrl]

good post

Jihad does not mean "holy war". It means "to struggle".

The only ones deluded enough to think they are fighting a "holy war" is some phsycho's who claim to be christian but are not really.

Ofcource i'm not saying ALL christians are like this, not at all. Infact i'm saying the minority are like this. No TRUE beliver in god would think this way.

After all there are christians fighting in the iraqi resistance against the US imperialist beast.

*nod nod*

Crowne

" and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than Death."
Qur'an 2:191

Persecution is worse than Death, it is indeed, Ameen.

See islam says if you are attacked, DEFEND YOURSELF!

So live free or die comrades. Live free or die.

" I see, SS, you are also a true believer in your religion. Lying to an infidel is not really lying, it is merely strategic propaganda propagation."

Eheh? lying to an infidel? where do you get this stuff honestly. Missleading the enemy during BATTLE is acceptable in islam, because it could be part of a clever strategy, like a general would fool an army, or like someone would fake a punch to the right and hit with the left, that is what is says. It has nothing to do with other religions or whatever. But you are not my enemy Crowne, and i would like to think i am not yours. We are not trying to kill each other right now, and i am no general, so we are not at war and this does not apply. Anyway it also says that if you make a peace treaty with your enemy you must always stay true to it. Unless They break it.

Interesting that the word "Crusade" seems to be a thorn in your side, as you might be afraid that people know that the Crusades were responses to Islamic Jihads in the past.

HAAAAH i'd love to find a historian that agrees with you crowne.

I see a bit of difference between the two religions. One religion doesn't back up creating a Holy War, while anothe seems to back up this sentiment -
"May Allah rip out his spine from his back and split his brains in two, and then put them both back, and then do it over and over again. Amen."

Since there is no such thing as holy war in islam, and since such a quote doesn't exist anywhere in the koran, i can only imagine that the what you are talking about is christianity.

This could turn into a slug fest, I could quote things you several things from the bible (ofcource MY quotes would be real and not made up). But that is no insult to the christian comrades here, i would like to tell you that christianity is a religion of the one true god, despite the fact that the bible has been corrupted by the lying hand of the scribes, and i respect TRUE christians.

So let's not turn this into a slug fest, but i will say this. The word for sword, appears over a hundred times in the bible, but not once in the Quran. And you can check that information yourself

I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO POINT YOUR ATTENTION TO WyrdeOne's Post. I would love to hear your answer to his post.

WyrdeOne

Saladin could have killed MILLIONS, but instead he chose to tell them, basically 'live in peace, practice whatever religion you will, but respect me and my people who have beaten you, or I'll burn your cities to the ground and leave you amongst the ashes.'

You're right though, the crusades are often mis-represented as being an entirely Christian atrocity.

Thankyou for saying the truth about Saladin, one of the greatest hero's of our time.
I would also like to note that i never said that the crusades where an entirely christian atrocity. Infact in my very first post i said that Wars are never fought of religion, religion is used as an excuse, by greedy men who like to profit.

The crusades where no different, greedy men who liked to profit wanted to take over different regions who where far more technological at the time. The Crusaders killed both christian and muslim arabs, and i don't belive that the cursaders where true christians at all, they where more like satanist illuminati knight templers.

[edit on 2-8-2005 by Syrian Sister]

Thomas Crowne: You quote a lot of nice loving Bible quotes to hold up against the terribly bloody ones you chose from the Koran.

Numbers 31:7-18

They attacked Midian just as the Lord had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Deuteronomy 20:10-14

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the Lord your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the Lord your God has given you.

Does God in fact condone rape, according to these quotes I've pulled together?

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

You can grab any quotes from either the Bible or the Koran to back up the apparent bloodthirstiness of peaceful religions. That doesn't mean they are followed to the letter or even taken seriously.

Of interest?
Equal criticism...
Muslims’ victimhood syndrome




seekerof

Originally posted by Jakomo
Numbers 31:7-18

But Moses (said) ... Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Deuteronomy 20:10-14

But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the Lord your God has given you.

OMG! I've read the bible and re-read it. I've gone to bible studies
and to weekly church meetings where scripture is discussed. I've sat in
Mass where the entire bible is read during the 3 year cycle. But I have to
say OMG! I missed these. Moses was promoting killing off everyone
except the virgin girls who he told his army to keep as sex slaves.
(so much for 'thou shalt not commit adultry'). Promoting children as
cattle to be owned as well. Christians, Jews, AND Muslims all look to
Moses as their spiritual father. It was Moses who appeared to Christ
in the Transfiguration on the mountain (with Peter, James and John as
witness'). I guess Christ approved of Moses thought process? He
must have, otherwise He wouldn't have allowed Moses to appear in
Glory on that mountain during the Transfiguration.
Crap! I've gotta' go think about this now ....

[edit on 8/2/2005 by FlyersFan]

Jakomo

Thankyou for your Insight, i knew some of those quotes but ofcource i held back as not to start a slug fest.

I respect your knoweledge on this issue, and so:

"You have voted Jakomo for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month."

But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded

I could never belive moses said this, Moses was a great man, that is why i know the bible has been corrupted by the lying hand of the scribes.

You see the bible is a bit like "hadith" in islam, it's hear say. So muslims are told not to belive all of it, but at the same time not to throw it all out as lies. You must be caucious.

djohnsto77

I think Mecca is a legitimate target for nuclear annihilation

I guess you belive yourself to be at war with all the muslims in that case. Well if you hate all the muslims, then why are you pretending to "die for their freedom". hehe or is it the oil your men are dying for.



[edit on 2-8-2005 by Syrian Sister]

Originally posted by Seekerof
Muslims’ victimhood syndrome

Good info Seekerof. I enjoyed reading it. Thanks.

Jakomo - You got a 'Way Above' vote from me too. Ya' got me.
I didn't know, or didn't remember, those quotes about Moses.
I'll be thinking about those for a while!!


[edit on 8/2/2005 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by Seekerof
Of interest?
Equal criticism...
Muslims’ victimhood syndrome
seekerof

Thank you for that drink of fresh water.

Nice find.

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
Jihad does not mean "holy war". It means "to struggle".
[edit on 2-8-2005 by Syrian Sister]

you're right it's a struggle to liberate muslim land

And in their twisted minds the terrorists have found a way to use as an excuse to target western countries:
The US has troops spread on muslim soil so to them the US ( UK, Italy,etc. also) are legitimate targets

Ohhh forgot to mention this: Spain is considered a muslim land
So they're always be "legitimate" targets... Unless they decide to evacuate a huge chunk of their country

It's really just to say that I guess every ancient religion has its' dark deeds and questionable stories. When you have what you believe to be the Word of the Lord, you are not too apt to edit it. Nobody is necessarily going to say, "Um, say, Moses seems to be condoning rape and slavery here, so maybe we should tone it down a little for the kiddies."

You just downplay it and say to yourself, "Wow, people were pretty messed up thousands of years ago".

Thousands of years ago. We aren't the same people. As we continue on as a species, I like to believe we get more compassionate to each other and we understand more about the shared human condition. And we don't believe everything we read.

Of course three good ways to totally foster divisions and hatred are

1) Organized religion (not all, of course, but those that promote fundamentalism and are exclusionary)
2) Government (see every single post I have ever posted here )
3) Corporations


I think that's the case here. Both sides #2's and #3's are dragging religion into it in order to increase support, recruiting, and profit.


-jakomo

All this talking about moses might be true but one thing should be cleared out:
whith the coming of christ he wanted to change the equation which was stated by moses : eye for eye tooth for tooth
into a new one : he who hits you on the right cheek turn him your left cheek

P.S: sorry i didn't state quotes i'm just translating ( english being my third language)

did you somehow miss the point of your first post ss ?

in the event of a NUCLEAR ATTACK......bo dietl ( former cop and guest on imus in the morning, which is a comedy type program) suggets we bomb religious sites.....call me a fanatic, but as you posted, if you are attacked , you defend yourself.


vive le resistance ineed !

if there is no such thing as a holy war in islam why do all the extremeists praise allah after their acts

www.al-islam.org...

In the Name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful
Jihad
The Holy War of Islam and Its Legitimacy in the Quran

Syrian, I actually enjoyed this post and found it interesting. Good job! I do agree with you that the original meaning of jihad was internal struggle, the good vs evil, ying and yang type thing. the meaning was perverted by those like USB. I also entirely agree that religion is more often used to fuel the less greedy common people, where greed is the ultimate goal of those doing the crusading.

TC you are missing some quotes in your rather deceptive post, calls for slaughtering unbelievers abound in the OT:

They warred against Midian, as YAHWEH commanded Moses, and killed every male. They killed the kings of Midian ... And the people of Israel took captive the women of Midian and their little ones; and they took as booty all their cattle, their flocks, and all their goods. All their cities in the places where they dwelt, and all their encampments, they burned with fire." (Numbers 31:7)

"Moses was enraged with the officers of the army ... ‘So you spared the women! ... Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has had sexual intercourse with a man, but keep the virgins for yourselves ... divide them up evenly.'" (Numbers 31:15)

"Thus says YAHWEH of hosts, 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way, when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.'" And Saul came to the city of Amalek, and lay in wait in the valley. And Saul said to the Kenites, "Go, depart, go down from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them." ... So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites. And Saul defeated the Amalekites ... and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword ... And Saul said to Samuel, "I have obeyed the voice of YAHWEH, I have gone on the mission on which YAHWEH sent me, I have brought Agag the king of Amalek , and I have utterly destroyed the Amalekites." (1 Samuel 15:2, 20)

"Now David and his men went up, and made raids upon the Geshurites, the Girzites, and the Amalekites ... And David smote the land, and left neither man nor woman alive, but took away the sheep, the oxen, the asses, the camels, and the garments, and came back to Achish ... And David saved neither man nor woman alive, to bring tidings to Gath, thinking, "Lest they should tell about us, and say, 'So David has done.'" Such was his custom all the while he dwelt in the country of the Philistines." (1 Samuel 27:8)

HINT: these aren't from the Koran
There is plenty more to choose from, but I haven't got all day.

[edit on 8/2/05 by xmotex]

Originally posted by xmotex

HINT: these aren't from the Koran

There is plenty more to choose from, but I haven't got all day.

[edit on 8/2/05 by xmotex]

it looks like the modern day Muslims are adopting the this type of policies. its a wonder why they chose centuries old religion to go to, because the Islamic empire was at its peak at the time. many Muslims want to see that Islamic empire wen their religion helped them expanded from Europe to Asia to Africa, etc. they are trying to go back to the old ways. tsk tsk. i feel sorry for them, wen they try to dig up a big hole that leads to no where. wen the Islamic empire felled it felled and will not come back. most Muslims believed it accept a few that is trying to revived that empire. but as we have seen there are only a minority compare to the rest of the Muslim population that cares more about living a life on earth then about global jihad.

I don’t think this would be a good idea. First of all the Muslims who don't already hate the US would after-over 1 billion.

It is the same mentality as destroying the Christian site in Jerusalem because Palestinians don't like the US supporting Israel.

Too much crusading on all sides I feel .

Religion a good way to get young ment to die for low wages!

Holy War?

If that was the case, half the Middle-East would now be a smoking ruin and instead of typing on the world-wide internet, you would be sending smoke-signals to the next village.

You have no idea how badly we could hurt you, but we're trying to help instead of hurt.

So far we have freed (2) countries from dictators who thought EXACTLY like you do SS and I hope these countries find their way thru the darkness and find freedom. Syrian Sister, Its Arabs like you that prevent your race from moving forward.

Get on your prayer matt and beg to Allah that this does not become a "Holy War", because I think all sides would lose.

Maximu§





[edit on 043131p://222 by LA_Maximus]

Every Muslim holy site in the ME should be destroyed if a nuclear weapon is used by Islamic terrorists.

Destroy Islam, and the world is better off.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
Every Muslim holy site in the ME should be destroyed if a nuclear weapon is used by Islamic terrorists.

Destroy Islam, and the world is better off.

Yes... Think about how angry that will make ALL Muslims as opposed to the very small percentage of angry Muslims right now.