criss angel discussion...

reply to post by keymaster

Good point

The upshot is that that particular testimony is inconclusive evidence for either camp.

Originally posted by violet

If CA was to levitate right in front of you and you saw the prop that showed he really wasn't using TK, you'd come up with "well, he had to fake it, he got tipped off the CIA was onto him .... very clever actually". That's your response when you hear it for yourself, from CA, he has no powers.

Although this wasn't directed to me, I'd like to comment on it.

The CIA and all applicable psi agencies in the government are already on to Criss Angel. That is their job. There is no surprise. They have been studying this area of life for decades and have their own branch of remote viewers that work with the military.

Originally developed for and utilized by The Department Of Defense for intelligence collection purposes, Technical Remote Viewing is the trained ability to acquire accurate direct knowledge of things and events — targets — distant in time or space, in the past, present, or future, while conscious awareness remains totally “blind” to details about the target itself. TRV is a highly structured and standardized data collection skill. Like any other skill, practice is required to become proficient.

Source

Do a search on Ed Dames.

Additionally, if I got anywhere near Criss Angel or another telekinetic, I would feel that energy directly, as they are in great opposition to me personally. This has happened to me before and is one of the telltale signs that someone close by is channeling a large Group Entity.

So if someone was performing a stunt with props, I would not feel that energy, tipping me off that it was indeed only an illusion

Originally posted by violet
Most likely, if someone believed they had been healed, it was due to the power of positive thinking combined with the (hypnotic) suggestion they would heal, and therefore they expect it, it happens.

You should check out the experiments Dr. Gary Schwartz is conducting at the University of Arizona on energy healing.

lach.web.arizona.edu...

Originally posted by Paul_Richard

Originally posted by keymaster
You may have missed it, but those websites aren't demonstrative examples. As I was on ignore, you may have missed my post after yours where I explain that the one you say provides instruction does provide instruction, however it is to the point system and scoring of using it in the Role Playing Game. Not in real life. As you should know, role playing games have no requirement to be accurate.

Again, not saying telekinesis doesn't exist, just saying CA doesn't use it.

The point was that the term Chi-Telekinesis was used elsewhere and not just in this thread by those who support the idea that Criss Angel has a Gift in that capacity.

To find a website and/or school that actually teaches Chi-Telekinesis and which all the students are successful in learning it and in manifesting it on a regular basis, is problematic. The reason: Telekinesis, like Healing, Charisma, Astral Projection, Prophecy, etc., it is a Gift of the Spirit

My problem with this is that the word you are using to describe his power is made up. It cannot be defined and has only been used three other times. Twice in RPG's, which would be to clarify what kind of power it is, and once in a discussion of what if, where they clearly didn't know what word they should be using and just made one up to fit.

The problem is that if we just start making up words, discussion can go nowhere. For example, I could say I know Criss Angel doesn't have any special gifts because he performs his levitations through illusion cameraology. Do you see what I'm getting at?

As far as the post on the other site from oberon, I sent him an e-mail last night. Hopefully he responds and then we can find out what he really saw. We will have an actual first person eyewitness.

Anything to say about the cyril card through glass trick that I found for sale?

[edit on 9/1/2007 by keymaster]

Actually, I'm good friends with a gentleman who is a student of
Chen Xiaowang, the inheritor of the Chen system of Taiji and the most authoritative expert on 'Qi', (the chinese spelling of 'chi').

I can tell you that neither Paul, or CA has any idea what Chi is, and therefore they are talking about the 'woo-hoo' Chinese cinema version of the term.

As an example, ask Paul what 'fa-jing' is. (he's got me on ignore). I guarantee you he'll have to look it up and there's not a good functional explanation that he'll be able to find that would result in anyone being able to learn it.

If he decides to admit this, I'll be glad to engage in a dialog on IS and Qi.

So he should just drop the whole term, because he, being non-Chinese has no idea what he's talking about.

HTH.

PS- the reason someone might choose this term 'Chi' (or more correctly Qi) is that it is a poorly understood term in the Western world and thus it is difficult for anyone to dispute them. Pair it with 'telekinesis' and you've got a real "winner".



[edit on 1-9-2007 by Badge01]

Avoidance, denial, obfuscation: these are the traits that the Denier's show us constantly. Refusal to address the main and most critical issues and insistence on alluding to distracting and superfluous nonsense is the hallmark of the Denier's creed.

It really astounds me how perfectly decent and intelligent people can possibly be so stubborn and obtuse when confronted with logic and fact that does not fit their parameters of belief. There is a barrier, and they will not breach it, for fear of the consequences of revelatory knowledge; it demands introspection and a critical look at the spirit and soul when a new paradigm is encountered and accepted as real. Until the Denier's allow the barrier to be withdrawn, they will never accept the truth, no mater how much we show and the obvious and incontrovertible nature of it's substance is merely an issue to be ignored by them..astounding.

The brazeness of asserting as factual things not proven or apparent or even properly alluded to is a blatant example of a psychologically oriented state of denial, a denial that transcends the bounds of reason and the evidence at hand. I presented videos that clearly and unequivocally demonstrate that esoteric powers are factual, and yet the replies say " I haven't watched the Cyril videos "..total refusal to even examine evidence is quite telling: It means that no proof is wanted!! Mind made up!! Don't show me any proof..it's all trricks even though we have no proof...unreal.

All I can say is that I am totally open to being shown that Criss and David and Cyril are all just illusionist's and that there are props and wires and it's all just a great trick..I really will change position immediately if it can be shown to any reasonable degree that there are props used in the high levitations and certain other events. I have examined the evidence and concluded that Criss is NOT using props and no one has demonstrated with any evidence that props are there. All of the proof says no props; one must suppose that props are there. Supposition is not proof or evidential.

Until evidence as massive and valid and obvious as that which we have now shows that Criss is using props it can safely be assumed that no props are there. Simple. Logical. sensible. Open minded . Odds favorite.

Still no substantive replies...still no answers to a very few critical questions..of course. If the denier's were a debating team the laughs from the audience would be directed at the side that asks for us to believe that what we do not and cannot see ot touch is actually physically present and real despite no evidence of such whatsoever. They ask us to believe that our facilities for critical thinking and observation and analysis of what we see and touch and observe is so lacking that we simply cannot perceive the props!! Criss and his team are so much smaarter than us that they can locate and use props that are unable to be detected by human senses or by photographs !!

Well, I have more faith in my cognitive abilities than the denier's;I am confident that if Criss were using props in the high levitations and some other events, I would be able to give at least an intelligent and likley alternative to his having unseen powers by showing logical and probable ways that it could be done. I would show film of props, or someone saying that they saw props, oe evidence showing others doing the same feat with props, or some other tangible proof of props. I would not ask others to accept my viewpoint based only on the suppositon that what I cannot prove is my best case!! I wouldn't have the nerve.

But nerve is about all the Deniers really have, so we see it in spades. At any rate, I am enjoying PaulRichards comments as they have substance and offer a possibility..instead of denial and asking for ' trust me ' as a case in chief. Will any of them answer the hard questions or will they continue to ignore and deny? Time will tell; so far the deniers side has few replies of merit and none of substance. Denial is like that.

If you cannot refute evidence convincingly, then you have lost the case. That is a fact of life. So far, NO convincing refutation has been offered; only the most spurious and unlikley scenarios have been proffered and all have fallen far short of deserving serious consideration. Still waiting.

Anyone care to watch the Cyril videos and comment on how it could have been done WITH props? LIKELY and INTELLIGENT answers only please. If none are forthcoming, we can safely assume that the reason is because the Denier camp is unable to do so. If they cannot successfully refute the evidence we give, then the point is conceded and we remain, as always atop the mountain of truth and the summit of the debate. No doubt.

reply to post by Paul_Richard


there is no god is just a name. But now you bring it up, there is no god!! Prove it in a laboratory!! Ahh! but you say "You can't prove emotions in a lab" well I don't need them to be proven there I have them already. What I do not have experience of is the fictional Chi-KInesis or Chi-T-K or whatever the fashionable term is.

As has been said the mere fact that you use the romanced spelling of Qi proves you know nothing of it. I am not Oriental but whenever I have partaken in any Martial Art I have encompassed that art as much as I can in culture without "going native" as they say. You need to be as wholly part of the art as possible, to get as much as possible.

In my experience proper martial arts, not fictional, fanciful titled fantasies, do seem to have a better outcome for encompassing Qi. It is correct as someone has said, that in the west we don't get the concept of Qi, correct. Its one of those cultural things that are experiential. It is something that westerners can only get as an approximation.

It's like some cultures have words for objects and abstract concepts that others will never get. The Welsh have a word "Hiraeth" the nearest equivalent in English is "homesick", I believe. But the Welsh will tell you that it is nothing like homesick.

So having read this thread on and off for a while I find that your explanation of CA is as vague as ever. The CA is an illusionist camp have a sound case, in that most of us know of or have experienced an illusionist / magician at work.

The CA camp of CA is a master of Chi-Telekinesis etc is based on...nothing but mere fantasy. A fantasy term for a fantasy skill. When I ask for proof of it's existence, I get, look on the Internet. The Internet is not proof.

I am gradually beginning to believe, that either you are genuinely delusional or having a laugh. Your fanaticism is on pare with fundamental religious types.

To be honest I am finding it amusing, if you do really believe CA is for real, then I have high hopes that there are still people gullible enough to fall for it and therefore buy any crackpot invention I can come up with. Why it is even possible that someone may believe that we can really talk to the dead and make a healthy living from it.

It is also amusing if you really are playing this for laughs...which is something I would have done years ago

In closing, looking at your vague posts, I do not think you are for real!!

Originally posted by eyewitness86

Anyone care to watch the Cyril videos and comment on how it could have been done WITH props? LIKELY and INTELLIGENT answers only please. If none are forthcoming, we can safely assume that the reason is because the Denier camp is unable to do so. If they cannot successfully refute the evidence we give, then the point is conceded and we remain, as always atop the mountain of truth and the summit of the debate. No doubt.

And I repeat, Click here for the card through glass trick.

It is the exact trick Cyril does. Down to the tearing off of the corner of the playing card. All for $75.

It would be much easier to understand your points if you didn't obscure them with uneeded, excessive rambling. You are not telling a story. You are arguing a point. You go on and on trying to hide the fact that your posts have very little substance. "Oh boy, I saw a video on u-tube. It must be real. What do you mean it's not real? It's a video isn't it? Seeing is believing. Prove that it isn't real. Prove that the illusionist isn't performing illusions."

You still have yet to provide anything other than these videos. When I provide a link. as above, to the actual trick for sale, you ignore it. I can understand the arguing of the levitation trick. But really, card tricks? Anyone can do card tricks. All you have to do is learn how. And yes, it will cost you for the better ones. Next you'll be asking us to prove that he didn't use some magic force to pull a rabbit out of his hat.

Why don't we forget you ever brought up Cyril and concentrate on Criss Angel? Cyril is hardly half the magician that Criss Angel is.

Just for fun, to take a break from the intense and disparate viewpoints, why don't we all have a cup of coffee? Here is Cyril borrowing a sign from a shop and getting a lady a free cup. Well, not quite free, Cyril leaves the money under the sealed covering on the sign even though the picture of the display coffee is empty!! Using a magic marker that he bends with chi force, Cyril gets a picture to become the real thing: Observe:




What a handy ability to have when hungry or thirsty and out of money!! All one needs is a sign!! If the coffee doesn't satisfy you , here Cyril shows how easy it is to get a few burgers from a sign, putting the bitten one back to get another, the picture of the remaining burger shows the bite missing!! Too bad for the shop owner, one picture remains missing and blank!!

Hmmm...

Do I believe levitation is possible? Yes. There are accounts of it through history, by the yogi's and other people who did so under not so controlled conditions. Do I believe CA has that ability? Not sure-I sort of lean towards no, but anything is possible IMHO.

I definitely enjoy watching his show each week though-It's great entertainment.

reply to post by Paul_Richard

Thanks for your evaluation!
I think you know what I meant about the power of suggestion with the use of words. Actually you bring up hypnosis alot! It's funny how you are so quick to dismiss it when it was used in my "ignorant" argument towards the healings you claim were done by chi tk. I have met so called healers and know people who used them. To date, I've been left unimpressed. Having said that, if I got sick would I use one? Yes, I would try this approach to have my mind and body tricked into being healed. I did not say I do not believe in healing. It is absolutely possible. My comments were to you saying you know people who KNEW they got Chi-TK'd!

Although YOU believe in this Chi telekinesis and even though TK may be possible, there is no clear evidence CA uses it. Your TSOL or Society of Angel of Light website, or whatever you call it - is it yours? It might be wise for you to add a disclaimer to your page. Or did I miss it? The lists on the site of who YOU have determined uses "the gift", consists of Magicians and illusionists! "Go see the great Chi TK demo on this youtube link!". You should also add the nightly levitations over Anaheim done by Tinkerbell.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard

Originally developed for and utilized by The Department Of Defense for intelligence collection purposes, Technical Remote Viewing is the trained ability to acquire accurate direct knowledge of things and events — targets — distant in time or space, in the past, present, or future, while conscious awareness remains totally “blind” to details about the target itself. TRV is a highly structured and standardized data collection skill. Like any other skill, practice is required to become proficient.

Source

Thanks for the reference link, but I'm already aware of this. I've read some good books on the subject, etc.

[edit on 2-9-2007 by violet]

Eyewitness
I watched the Cyril coffee refill video. Boring.
The problem with this, is once he starts pouring the coffee, we never really get to see what is going on behind the picture. Obviously coffee is being fed through a tube.

Originally posted by keymaster
The problem is that if we just start making up words, discussion can go nowhere. For example, I could say I know Criss Angel doesn't have any special gifts because he performs his levitations through illusion cameraology. Do you see what I'm getting at?

If you had people who demonstrated illusion cameraology and it was clearly defined, then I would applaud you for inventing a new and useful term.

The terms Chi, Ki, Prana, and Telekinesis are all well-known, and all represent the same energy, the same God Force.

Originally posted by keymaster
As far as the post on the other site from oberon, I sent him an e-mail last night. Hopefully he responds and then we can find out what he really saw. We will have an actual first person eyewitness.

That would be interesting. We have the advantage in here in that the moderators will not prevent or obstruct the posting of testimony that might explain a feat of a magician.

I'm still waiting for 1 Tru Criss Angel Fan to respond to my U2U from the other day. Maybe you will have better luck than I had.

Originally posted by violet
My comments were to you saying you know people who KNEW they got Chi-TK'd!

Go to this thread on Qigong. In addition to the videos, there you will find a number of testimonies of people who have been healed and/or have experienced Chi energies in other ways.

Furthermore, etshrtsir was kind enough to provide you with a reference to the energy healing experiments of Dr. Gary Schwartz at the University of Arizona:

Laboratory For Advances In Consciousness & Health

There are many other places where one can find examples and testimonies of those who have been healed with the energies of Spirit. Like Reiki and remote healing sites for example. Yet another. Just because it didn't work for you so far, does not mean that it doesn't work for many other people

Originally posted by violet
Although YOU believe in this Chi telekinesis and even though TK may be possible, there is no clear evidence CA uses it.

There is an abundance of video and testimonial evidence that he has that Gift, which no magician can duplicate to the same degree (or at all) anywhere

Your prejudice and inexperience blinds you from seeing Criss Angel and his Gift of Chi-TK clearly.

Which is fine. It provides those who know and wish to serve the opportunity to explain the phenomenon from a number of angles, to improve upon our teaching and debating skills, and to help others who read this thread and who genuinely wish to learn.

Keymaster: The link you gave to a prop shop was totally NOT any proof of anything. It does NOT include the person reaching thru the glass and geting the card back!! It is totally different!! If you read the item offered, the GLASS section is included in the trick; you must use a prepared piece of glass. It is a small toy trick that might be funny at a party of drunken teens but not for anyone else and NOT under the conditions we see in the videos. SHOW US ONE VIDEO OF A PERSON DOING THE EVENT USING THOSE CHEAP PROPS YOU LINKED TO.

The glass that Cyril uses is not from a shop and it is not a 75 dollar trick; he uses the glass on a BOAT underway and UNDER WATER. How could you POSSIBLY compare the two? It is as different as day and night. The trick you linked to requires someone to use a small supplied piece of glass with obvious abilities to decive the grade school kids that might be impressed with it. It would have to be used under totally controlled situations.

On the other hand, the ' thru the glass ' events we see Criss and Cyril and David do are all PUBLIC and using glass that was already there are in place, and that could not possible have been the same as the cheap trick you mention. If 75 bucks can buy a way to do the events we see, then why are not legions of Youtube videos showing us the events being done in similar situations?In public, windows that are huge and attached to businesses..NOT some 12/12 inch toy that is meant for kids. Give us a break; if you are going to insist that what we are seeing is just a trick, at least give us something that is close to what we see and not something at a totally different level.

Cyril and the others have NEVER been duplicated, and you do not wonder why. It is because they cannot be duplicated because they are NOT using cheap tricks that anyone can buy; they are using abilities that virtually no one on earth is able to generate. THAT is why you cannot and have not given us ONE example of the events being done under similar circumstances. I could point to some business that sells harnesses and wires, but that has nothing to do with the high levitations where no props were possible, seen, witnessed, photographed or alluded to. Two different things totally.

AS for the back of the board, it was shown several times and the crowd was RIGHT THERE, in front of and all around the event, and had someone stepped up and attched a ' tube ' to the back of the board surely that person would have been seen and the crowd would have pointed it out immediately. But that did not happen, there are no tubes, and there was no evidence of such and the crowd was not stupid and blind; they were freaked out and astounded by what happened. The guy holding the board was a stranger and the witnesses were right there inches away, and NO PROOF of any trick is evident. Cyril can manipulate material reality just like Criss and David and that is just too much for s denier to comprehend, simple.

Lets hear about how Cyril got the company that owns the boat to replace all their glass with the 75 dollar toy you mentioned and how the card got on the outside of that glass while the boat was moving, and with a card signed by the witness. Pavil says a scuba diver was there swimming along with the boat, and you say that for 75 bucks we can do what Cyril did there, right? My God how low will a denier go to deny relaity? The most LUDICROUS and UNLIKELY excuses are the best that the deniers have to offer, how sad. Their case in chief is that we are all just too stupid to see that a few bucks and a trip to the prop store copuld allow US to perform the same events we see...Right? If so, WHY isn't it being done? TELL US WHY we cannot find ANY proof or evidence or videos of ANYONE repeating the same events WITH the props; that would shut us up. THAT would be actually convincing. But we NEVER do get any proof, do we? NO videos of anyone doing it the same way or even close..NO examples of anyone being able to perform the same events.

NO PROOF. THAT is the deniers biggest point; what does that say? Give us some proof that what you all;ege could be possible or admit defeat like a mature and honest person would.

Originally posted by violet
You should also add the nightly levitations over Anaheim done by Tinkerbell.

No, Tinkerbell needs people "in" on it too. Remember she has to have you believe for her to stay twinkleing. Maybe we are her "Group Entity" or whatever

reply to post by eyewitness86


Eyewitness, You keep contending that the boat was moving. I don't believe you can prove it was and even if it was it would be going very slow as it is a site seeing boat.

Cyril is a very good magician, as I have said he takes tricks to a step above what others have. They are still tricks though, carefully worked out and with a very big dash of showmanship. Cyril did not put the card through the glass boat window. You don't find it odd that in the other trick we were show both sides of the card, yet in this one we only see the back. I would be a heck of alot more impressed if he reversed the cards so we would see the cards number side facing us. If Cyril could do that, you know he would. The particular card never leaves the interior of the boat. He never puts his hand through the glass in the boat. You don't even need a diver out there you just need a mechanism to slide the Plexiglas's plate with the card in place and then move it at the end. It is a very reasonable explanation of a trick with someone with good sleight of hand skills.

The Boat and the Fish tank trick are similar only in the Card, the mechanics of the two tricks are vastly different. Cryil does put his hand in the fish tank, he doesn't not do the same feat on the boat. It confuses you since you assume him to use the same process on both. Again a higher form of misdirection. Pretty slick in my opinion.

I would almost compare his hand motion of going "into" the glass in the boat to a "psychic surgeon" who kneads your stomach, making it look like he has "cut" into you body with his hands and uses fake blood and animal guts to "look" like he is pulling out diseased things from your body.
I bet that last paragraph will set Paul Richards off. Just wait for the "John of God" stories. You have been warned.

Seems like those two can't defend CA tricks with anything other than complete denial of other possibilities so they start bring in others.

Originally posted by eyewitness86

On the other hand, the ' thru the glass ' events we see Criss and Cyril and David do are all PUBLIC and using glass that was already there are in place, and that could not possible have been the same as the cheap trick you mention. .

Are you saying they just walked into a random place that had a large fish tank with a camera crew and just walked up and performed this magical feat with random bystanders who just happen to be eating in the restaurant that day?

OK Pavil, here you are, a video of Cyril making a card go thru a massive business window in front of many witnesses, and the card is facing out this time!! After you were bold enough to suggest that there is a trap door in the window of the sightseeing boat, CLEARLY UNDERWAY to anyone that can see the motion of the water and bubbles, I should disregard much of what you say; that is simply silly and you know it. There is NO way a trapdoor could be in a glass windowed sightseeing boat and to assume so is nonsense.

No matter HOW MUCH proof we give the rabid deniers never will admit the obvious; they would rather deny than open up and that is a condition that no one can help. Here is Cyril altering the molecular structure of elements, proven and plain. Any way of getting around this one will sound insultingly ridiculous, I am sure: The interior of the building can be seen quite well and is empty. The exact card with signature is inside the window facing out. What more could anyone want?




So, Pavil tell us how they pulled this one off.