Common Sense Gun Legislation

a reply to: DAVID64

And all teachers are gun 'guys'? Ridiculous argument.

a reply to: quintessentone

The only teachers that are most likely to carry would be ones who are already comfortable with firearms. Also, teachers should be put through the same training classes as police and qualify 4 times a year.

School shooters, like most criminals, look for easy targets.

Don't be an easy target.

originally posted by: DAVID64
a reply to: quintessentone

The only teachers that are most likely to carry would be ones who are already comfortable with firearms. Also, teachers should be put through the same training classes as police and qualify 4 times a year.

School shooters, like most criminals, look for easy targets.

Don't be an easy target.

Law enforcement trainors are saying the police training being legislated is not enough.

originally posted by: DAVID64
Also, teachers should be put through the same training classes as police and qualify 4 times a year.

See ... I don't think that teachers need the same level of training as cops. It couldn't hurt, of course. But it's really not necessary I think. Once every three months go through training? The only thing that the teacher would be doing is pulling and firing on a bad guy with a gun busting into the classroom. The teachers really don't need all the tactical training that a cop does. They wouldn't be doing police work. They'd just be firing a gun for protection for self and kids.

That being said. I"m sure that any gun toting teacher wouldn't mind a class and range time once every three months.

a reply to: FlyersFan

No, not training, just qualify with your firearm to show you can shoot accurately.

Like any other skill, shooting takes practice and you tend to get rusty if you don't. I can notice a bit of a difference during the Winter because I have an outdoor range....and I hate being cold.

originally posted by: DAVID64
No, not training, just qualify with your firearm to show you can shoot accurately.

Ahhh okay. Yeah. Once every three months on the range is probably what a lot of people with guns do anyways.

I thought you were talking about tactical training like the cops get. There is absolutely no need to train teachers at police level for carrying guns in the classroom. All they need to know is when to shoot and how to shoot. That's it. If they've got that and a clean bill of health mentally ... it's all good!

I know I would have loved it if the teachers in my daughters classrooms were carrying guns and were range qualified. Instead, you just send them off to school and hope that nothing happens. They sit there unprotected in the classroom ... sitting ducks.

originally posted by: DAVID64
a reply to: FlyersFan

No, not training, just qualify with your firearm to show you can shoot accurately.

That won't be happening. Plus include extensive psychological assessment and background investigations.

Regular training for armed staff that covers weapons proficiency and concealed carry, including maintaining weapon security; firing accurately in high-stress situations, through regular target practice at gun ranges and active shooter scenario drills; use of force and legal considerations; and first aid. Annual or periodic re-training also may be necessary.

In active shooter situations, there are significant concerns about the ability of even well-trained marksmen to survey the scene and shoot accurately. Law enforcement personnel receive countless hours of emergency response preparation, but educators don't have time to undergo such extensive training. As a result, there is increased risk of an educator misidentifying the shooter or accidentally shooting a bystander or plainclothes first responder. Many fear that minority students may be at heightened risk of such misidentification due to implicit bias or racial stereotyping.

Additionally, engaging in a confrontation with an active shooter puts an armed educator at greater risk of death. For example, a shooter may have higher skills and more firepower, such as an assault weapon, than the educator, or a first responder may mistake the educator for the active shooter.

Aside from risks an active shooter situation presents, gun accidents are common nationwide, and firearms in a classroom pose a hazard. Studies have found that gun accidents arise primarily from weapons kept for self-defense, and children are often the victim of these accidents. If educators are armed, then curious, careless, or ill-intentioned students could accidentally or intentionally gain access to the firearms at school and cause serious harm to themselves or others.

www.ue.org...

a reply to: FlyersFan

As has been said many time sin this thread by me and many others, it is always those of little to no knowledge of firearms that want to make rules restricting them and our use of them.

Anyone who says that a trained and licensed teacher carrying a concealed firearm is a danger to a class/school knows absolutely nothing about firearms and really does not care about the safety and well being of these kids. They want to leave these kids as a sitting duck for a shooter to come right in and mow them all down, and/or make the district, tax payers, and families pay $50k+ per unit of an experimental "bulletproof wall", that we have no idea of longevity and/or if it will even work in any and every classroom in the country. Never mind the fact that all other body armor has a shelf life and an expiration date, causing it to have to be replaced every X amount of years. Also needing to be replaced if it observed to have any damage, whether caused by being shot or not.

a reply to: quintessentone

These are only costs if the state requires the school to provide these things to the teacher that is arming themselves.

Who will be conducting these assessments, you would be hard pressed to find one shrink that would not have any bias one way or the other on this issue to give honest opinions and assessments of any and all teachers. This is the same reason that any restriction involving having a psych eval. has been overturned when it comes to firearm ownership.

originally posted by: PorkChop96
a reply to: quintessentone

These are only costs if the state requires the school to provide these things to the teacher that is arming themselves.

Who will be conducting these assessments, you would be hard pressed to find one shrink that would not have any bias one way or the other on this issue to give honest opinions and assessments of any and all teachers. This is the same reason that any restriction involving having a psych eval. has been overturned when it comes to firearm ownership.

I disagree with having no psych eval. for any gun toting person, too many biased people out there looking to inflict their particular brand of justice on the world as seen with road rage incidents and other incidents in general society.

a reply to: quintessentone

Like most anti gun people, you are trying to make this so onerous that most will just give up. Your magic wall is not the solution.

Deterrents work. If a shooter knows they will face armed defenders they will think twice about their actions.

You know why we don't get smash and grab crime or armed robberies where I live ? We are a Constitutional Carry state and if you walk into a store with 20 people inside, there's a good chance at least 8 of us are armed and if you come in intent on doing harm to innocent people, we have no problem sending you out in a body bag.

Criminals know this is the wrong place to FAFO. Our schools should be the same.

originally posted by: DAVID64
a reply to: quintessentone

Like most anti gun people, you are trying to make this so onerous that most will just give up. Your magic wall is not the solution.

Deterrents work. If a shooter knows they will face armed defenders they will think twice about their actions.

You know why we don't get smash and grab crime or armed robberies where I live ? We are a Constitutional Carry state and if you walk into a store with 20 people inside, there's a good chance at least 8 of us are armed and if you come in intent on doing harm to innocent people, we have no problem sending you out in a body bag.

Criminals know this is the wrong place to FAFO. Our schools should be the same.

Most shooters expect to die anyway by police, so armed teachers would not be a deterrent.

Those smash and grab criminals don't have a death wish.

I am not anti-gun, I am anti-stupid old Western-type shoot 'em up, lack of proper training and no psych. eval arming of teachers.

a reply to: quintessentone

So your solution is to hide and hope till the cops get there when you could have armed defenders on the spot.

That could be the difference between 50 casualties and 3.

originally posted by: quintessentone
I am anti-stupid old Western-type shoot 'em up, lack of proper training and no psych. eval arming of teachers.

Well then you shouldn't be 11 pages into this thread with constant complaints and roadblocks.

It has already been said that teachers who would be armed have already had background checks, and they'd have a mental health evaluation as well as range training. You throwing in "stupid old western type shoot 'em ups" ... that's ridiculous. Teachers wouldn't be pulling the gun unless it was necessary and they'd be trained to shoot center mass ... shoot to kill.

11 pages ... you keep bringing in stuff that is irrelevant and loaded-language biased. Like saying that cops don't get enough training. That's irrelevant. Teachers don't need to be tactically trained at cop level.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: quintessentone
I am anti-stupid old Western-type shoot 'em up, lack of proper training and no psych. eval arming of teachers.

Well then you shouldn't be 11 pages into this thread with constant complaints and roadblocks.

It has already been said that teachers who would be armed have already had background checks, and they'd have a mental health evaluation as well as range training. You throwing in "stupid old western type shoot 'em ups" ... that's ridiculous. Teachers wouldn't be pulling the gun unless it was necessary and they'd be trained to shoot center mass ... shoot to kill.

11 pages ... you keep bringing in stuff that is irrelevant and loaded-language biased. Like saying that cops don't get enough training. That's irrelevant. Teachers don't need to be tactically trained at cop level.

Wrong, none of this training or psych. eval. was brought up at all until I brought it up.

originally posted by: quintessentone
Wrong, none of this training or psych. eval. was brought up at all until I brought it up.

Wrong, I was the second person to post on this thread and I brought it up.
Others have brought it up throughout this thread. You are flailing.

People have said many times on this thread that training and background checks etc need to be done to be certified. Why are you still whining about it as if nobody is going along with that ... making up comments like having old western shoot'em ups ... very strange.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: quintessentone
Wrong, none of this training or psych. eval. was brought up at all until I brought it up.

Wrong, I was the second person to post on this thread and I brought it up.
Others have brought it up throughout this thread. You are flailing.

The safety courses you and others are touting are not law enforcement, emergency situation courses...show me where any of you specify that?

Also nobody here mentioned early on in this thread anything related to any other preparedness measures except going to a gun range and learning to shoot straight. Flail much?

originally posted by: quintessentone
The safety courses you and others are touting are not law enforcement, emergency situation courses...show me where any of you specify that? Also nobody here mentioned early on in this thread anything related to any other preparedness measures except going to a gun range and learning to shoot straight.

People have said over and over ... going to the range, background checks, mental health checks, training. Teachers don't need police level tactical training. They don't need to become certified cops. They just need to know how to assess the situation, pull their gun, and shoot straight.

Flail much?

That would be you.
Seriously ... the amount of blowback from you ... it's looking ridiculous.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: quintessentone
The safety courses you and others are touting are not law enforcement, emergency situation courses...show me where any of you specify that? Also nobody here mentioned early on in this thread anything related to any other preparedness measures except going to a gun range and learning to shoot straight.

People have said over and over ... going to the range, background checks, mental health checks, training. Teachers don't need police level tactical training. They don't need to become certified cops. They just need to know how to assess the situation, pull their gun, and shoot straight.

Flail much?

That would be you.
Seriously ... the amount of blowback from you ... it's looking ridiculous.

The legislators are saying, yes, teachers need law enforcement and emergency situational training so I'm not sure why you are saying they don't need it. Also the law enforcement trainors are now saying what training they will get won't be enough. But you know better?

How can anyone know how to assess a situation without knowing learning how to assess a specific situation or what to expect in that situation, especially when that person has never been in that situation before?

a reply to: quintessentone

Then tell me, how are you going to find a 100% unbiased person to do the evals?

I'm not saying we should not have them, but you are going to have such an array of opinions ranging from "yes absolutely you can carry" to "absolutely not, you are too unstable". And those answers could be given to the same person from two different doctors.