How can atheism have morality?

a reply to: neoholographicpart2

Interesting question.



I think atheism can have morality because atheists live in a culture based on religious teachings.

I tried to think of any culture that has ever developed without religion, and I couldn't.

The atheists may not have religion or believe, but they learn the differences between good and evil from a societal foundation based on religion that does emphasize good over evil.

In my humble opinion.

a reply to: DBCowboy

I could not think in any nether.

According to Wiki/Google through the "Piraha" people from the Amazon rainforest of Brazil, are often cited as a culture that appears to lack organised religion or formalised beliefs.

en.wikipedia.org...

I'd say look at the social structure of wolves (and others such as elephants).

They seem to have a higher moral structure than most humans -- without any religion.

When I stepped completely out of the "God Circle" I had an epiphany. I was 100% in charge of me, my decisions, my actions.

No more "go to guy". In God belief you "do" for Him -- someone outside yourself. You live in fear of judgment.

In atheism you "do" because it needs to be done. You do for others because they need it -- not because you fear judgment.

If you haven't experienced both -- how do you know the difference?

From my experience, regardless of what a person believes or doesn’t believe, people act out of self interest. When someone does act selflessly, when asked why they they did so, they say they didn’t give it a moments thought.

What we think and what we do rarely align. We are emotional creatures ruled by our desires and fears. Those that overcome such are few and far between.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: NoviceStoic1
a reply to: neoholographicpart2

Have you ever stopped to think, that you just might have been brainwashed somewhere along the line?

Seriously, have a think about it.

Have you ever stopped to think that you might have been brainwashed somewhere along the line? Mostly everyone goes through 12+ years of schooling that are directed towards the secular mythos.

I went to a Christian school. The first thing I was given was a bible. So yes I was brainwashed, to start with. Then I realised there is zero proof of any of the 3000 available gods.

originally posted by: NoviceStoic1

I went to a Christian school. The first thing I was given was a bible. So yes I was brainwashed, to start with. Then I realised there is zero proof of any of the 3000 available gods.

Brainwashing has many layers. We have both religious and secular brainwashing that occurs. A false portrayal of Christ, and then the secular fall-back when we inevitably rebel against the hypocrisy of the church. I also went to a Christian school, it was a highway to atheism for me... further searching and I eventually found the spiritual side of things, the empty space within the atom so to speak.

I don't see how anyone doesn't have an atheist phase in their life, especially given the joy of finding hope that brings you out of such a dead-end. It is great to have the revelation of eternally enduring purpose and the promise of the perpetuity of our consciousness when we begin to look for the King of Consciousness through our own conscious will, rather than just listening to the scraps that the power structures feed the plebeians.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: neoholographicpart2

Interesting question.

I think atheism can have morality because atheists live in a culture based on religious teachings.

I tried to think of any culture that has ever developed without religion, and I couldn't.

The atheists may not have religion or believe, but they learn the differences between good and evil from a societal foundation based on religion that does emphasize good over evil.

In my humble opinion.

Sure, I can't think of a culture that has developed without religion either, but the problem with your explanation is that you've got the direction of causality backwards.

Moral development was researched pretty heavily by Harvard psychologist Lawrence Kohlberg and his colleaguesin the 1950s and 1960s and they found that moral development in humans follows distinct stages, similar to how cognitive development follows distinct stages as well--as described by psychologist Jean Piaget. This happens across all cultures and over recorded history. In other words, human history has many, many different religions, but only one common pattern of moral development. This makes it much more likely that our shared concepts of moral behavior evolved over time in a particular direction because that behavior has a very strong survival value. Religions come and go and disagree with each other about the details, but the common understanding of what is moral behavior pretty much remains the same. This says that human moral reasoning is more or less intrinsic in the human psyche and religions just come along and incorporate it into whatever god stories they make up at any particular time and location--because the gods in those stories are almost always anthropomorphic to begin with.

originally posted by: AllisVibration

From my experience, regardless of what a person believes or doesn’t believe, people act out of self interest. When someone does act selflessly, when asked why they they did so, they say they didn’t give it a moments thought.

What we think and what we do rarely align. We are emotional creatures ruled by our desires and fears. Those that overcome such are few and far between.

Yes. We are basically social animals.

"Protect your pack/tribe"

For no other reason than their welfare.

External sky guy not needed,

originally posted by: NoviceStoic1

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: NoviceStoic1
a reply to: neoholographicpart2

Have you ever stopped to think, that you just might have been brainwashed somewhere along the line?

Seriously, have a think about it.

Have you ever stopped to think that you might have been brainwashed somewhere along the line? Mostly everyone goes through 12+ years of schooling that are directed towards the secular mythos.

I went to a Christian school. The first thing I was given was a bible. So yes I was brainwashed, to start with. Then I realised there is zero proof of any of the 3000 available gods.

That's correct.

ZERO proof of any god.

It's what lead me on my path to atheism.

originally posted by: cooperton
A false portrayal of Christ, ...

and then the secular fall-back when we inevitably rebel against the hypocrisy of the church. I also went to a Christian school, it was a highway to atheism for me... further searching and I eventually found the spiritual side of things, the empty space within the atom so to speak.

There is no authentic portrayal of Christ -- because "Bible Jesus" does not exist.

It is a misconception that an atheist cannot have Spiritual beliefs.

There is one meaning and "one meaning only" of atheism -- Lack of belief in a god -- that's it -- nothing else.

THE CENTER FOR GLOBAL ENLIGHTENMENT

Spiritual Atheists believe that nothing that exists or happens violates the nature of the universe; they believe that all such things only further define the nature of the universe.

For Spiritual Atheists, being "spiritual" means (at the very least) to have thoughts, words, and actions that are in harmony with the idea that the entire universe is, in some way, connected; at the very least by the mystical flow of cause and effect at every scale. And as science evolves; so, too, will our understanding.

www.centerforabetterworld.com...

originally posted by: Annee

There is no authentic portrayal of Christ -- because "Bible Jesus" does not exist.

It is a misconception that an atheist cannot have Spiritual beliefs.

There is one meaning and "one meaning only" of atheism -- Lack of belief in a god -- that's it -- nothing else.

THE CENTER FOR GLOBAL ENLIGHTENMENT


"Spiritual Atheists believe that nothing that exists or happens violates the nature of the universe; they believe that all such things only further define the nature of the universe.

For Spiritual Atheists, being "spiritual" means (at the very least) to have thoughts, words, and actions that are in harmony with the idea that the entire universe is, in some way, connected; at the very least by the mystical flow of cause and effect at every scale. And as science evolves; so, too, will our understanding."

www.centerforabetterworld.com...

That's fair but I don't think it is logical to suppose spiritual matters without something intelligent to have implemented spiritual matters. If there is a logic and purpose to spirituality or consciousness in general, then this very same objectivity insists upon something that set an objective for the lifeforms to come to realize. I don't think anyone on earth properly conceptualizes "God", but that is part of the journey to come to understand what logically implemented the biological and cosmological world.

The very existence of matter at all is on a razor's edge of precise physical laws that have remained the same for the past known history. It is stubborn to avoid admitting there is a higher Being responsible for implementing these physical algorithms to allow us encephalized biological supercomputers to exist. Jesus was uninhibited God personified in the lowest form of conscious expression (the human body), and he told us we are also part of this family of developing perpetual consciousness.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: NoviceStoic1

I went to a Christian school. The first thing I was given was a bible. So yes I was brainwashed, to start with. Then I realised there is zero proof of any of the 3000 available gods.

Brainwashing has many layers. We have both religious and secular brainwashing that occurs. A false portrayal of Christ, and then the secular fall-back when we inevitably rebel against the hypocrisy of the church. I also went to a Christian school, it was a highway to atheism for me... further searching and I eventually found the spiritual side of things, the empty space within the atom so to speak.

I don't see how anyone doesn't have an atheist phase in their life, especially given the joy of finding hope that brings you out of such a dead-end. It is great to have the revelation of eternally enduring purpose and the promise of the perpetuity of our consciousness when we begin to look for the King of Consciousness through our own conscious will, rather than just listening to the scraps that the power structures feed the plebeians.

What it seems like to me is than any 'brainwashing' or type of programming one accepts in their life can be easily derailed by authority, as in the Milgram experiment.

So good people doing bad things, or not questioning authority or not following their conscience.

www.simplypsychology.org...

a reply to: neoholographicpart2

you dont have morality without immortality .. why do u need either of them

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Annee

There is no authentic portrayal of Christ -- because "Bible Jesus" does not exist.

It is a misconception that an atheist cannot have Spiritual beliefs.

There is one meaning and "one meaning only" of atheism -- Lack of belief in a god -- that's it -- nothing else.

THE CENTER FOR GLOBAL ENLIGHTENMENT


"Spiritual Atheists believe that nothing that exists or happens violates the nature of the universe; they believe that all such things only further define the nature of the universe.

For Spiritual Atheists, being "spiritual" means (at the very least) to have thoughts, words, and actions that are in harmony with the idea that the entire universe is, in some way, connected; at the very least by the mystical flow of cause and effect at every scale. And as science evolves; so, too, will our understanding."

www.centerforabetterworld.com...

That's fair but I don't think it is logical to suppose spiritual matters without something intelligent to have implemented spiritual matters.

Science

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: AllisVibration

From my experience, regardless of what a person believes or doesn’t believe, people act out of self interest. When someone does act selflessly, when asked why they they did so, they say they didn’t give it a moments thought.

What we think and what we do rarely align. We are emotional creatures ruled by our desires and fears. Those that overcome such are few and far between.

Yes. We are basically social animals.

"Protect your pack/tribe"

For no other reason than their welfare.

External sky guy not needed,

That mentality stems primarily from protecting one’s own welfare, within every tribe/pack and social construct there exists the pecking order, none of that is selfless behaviour.

Selfless behaviour is the foundation of genuine ethics or morality, it is only the selfless conduct of the spiritual adept’s over millennia that has set an example for others to follow. A good parent will recognise it as unconditional love.

I'm not atheists but I am also not arrogant to say I know or have faith in afterlife , I'm also sure if there is a higher being it would not want you to believe everything you are told by the misleaders .

It's books written by men to have control over sheep .

My response to whatever God will be How can I believe the word shouted by liars of all kinds the liars do not even know they are lying .

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: neoholographicpart2

Interesting question.

I think atheism can have morality because atheists live in a culture based on religious teachings.

I tried to think of any culture that has ever developed without religion, and I couldn't.

The atheists may not have religion or believe, but they learn the differences between good and evil from a societal foundation based on religion that does emphasize good over evil.

In my humble opinion.

Thanks for the response.

You make a good point and atheist do have subjective morality but without an objective standard of good it's necessarily true that all subjective morality is good. This leads to modal collapse because morality is defined as a distinction between good and evil.

So the actions of a mass shooter is just as good as the behavior of MLK. There's no way an atheist can say one action is good and the other is bad outside of their subjective morality. So again, it's necessarily true that all subjective morality is good which leads to modal collapse.

Without an objective standard of good, then all subjective morality is good. How can moral law have any meaning within atheism? This is why the Bible says the carnal mind isn't subject to God's law. If your subjective morality is your law then you're lawless.

The satanist Aleister Crowley said do what thou wilt. This is a statement of lawlessness. Should a person that SA's women do what thou wilt? Herein lies the problem, if you have no objective standard of good then the SA of women is equally good as any other behavior. Without moral law there's lawlessness.

originally posted by: Annee
"That's fair but I don't think it is logical to suppose spiritual matters without something intelligent to have implemented spiritual matters."

Science

Science shows that life cannot come from non-life without intelligence. There's no thermodynamically favorable reaction that would be able to polymerize L-amino acids into the proteins necessary for life to exist. The reality of thermodynamics actually decays these polymers back into the amino acids spontaneously, so you would not get build-ups of amino acid polymers to form life from non-life. It is thermodynamically verified that life could not have come from non-life without intelligent intervention. That's why there's no demonstration of how it could happen, because it is physically impossible. It would require a miracle.

Most don't care though, they just want to believe not believe in God so it doesn't really matter about the evidence.

a reply to: neoholographicpart2

If you have an issue with the Thelema ideology.

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law"

You must also take umbrage at the big fellow's "Lord thy will be done" ideology.

Plenty of atheists follow the law of the land just fine.

Just not the laws you wish them to subscribe to which I'm guessing would equate to something reminiscent of Christian theocracy laws.

Again, morality is not the eminent domain of only religion sorts and assuming so is quite frankly rather arrogant.

originally posted by: Ravenwatcher

My response to whatever God will be How can I believe the word shouted by liars of all kinds the liars do not even know they are lying .

This was the point of having Christ's words written down for us. It is a reliable archetype for existence that brings us closer to truth, and allows us to perceive the blossoming truth on our own.