Is DC winning?

With the current Marvel phase 4 it has been in my opinion a complete train wreck. And I guess with Phase 4 we are starting with the last spider man movie. which I know I amin the minority here I didnt like. But I guess some people like it I dont know. But for me every thing that marvel has put out in phase four has been horrible with Wakanda Forever being the absolute straw that broke the camel's back. Except for doctor strange 2 everything has been horrible for marvel. On the flip side I think for the most part what DC has put out there has been serviceable if not good.

Alot of people have been saying that probably The Batman was the best superhero movie that came out this year. Also nothing that DC has served has not made me have visceral reaction to like Wakanda forever, SHe hulk, Thor love and Thunder, ( how many times do you have to find yourself Thor) Even DC's most recent movie Black Adam was entertaining, even though The Rock was downright horrible in the movie, ( this was the first time I have seen The Rock without a personality, thats saying a lot since he used to be a pro wrestler.) thankfully they had pierce bronsman and Aldis Hodge who carried the movie.

I will say the main thing that Marvel has going for it is there continual story that they have and story progression maybe sometimes chracter progression. where given DC's constant director changes and Warner bros company upheaval, DC unfrotunately has to reinvent themselves almost every year. Which sucks for the audience who shouldnt have to watch the same film because its a different directors take on the same movie.

with that being said thinking about it I would say right now Marvel is still winning just for the fact that still make it seem like they these secreted plans for five to ten years for their future. While with DC anyone want to place bets if James Gunn will be there in 2024?

but what do you all think?

I haven't really watched a superhero movie since Endgame. The writing was on the wall with the snapshot of the Femvengers in the final fight at the end. Plus the mindboggling logic of the sheer struggle to get the gauntlet across the battlefield *after* Captain Marvel is shown showing up by literally splitting one of Thanos' cruisers in two. If she was that powerful by herself, then give her the gaunlet and let everyone else go home.

In terms of coherent and plausible narrative, things were already starting to ride off the rails.

Part of the problem is with how more woke storytellers tell their stories. Characters are less supposed to be fully fleshed out and believable beings in their own right than they are symbols of the moral struggles of the day. In that sense, we're watching things that are more like a medieval morality play than we are the traditional kinds of narratives we all grew up with.

Characters that are representing are symbols for you to impose yourself into the story and live your struggle, not living creations in their own right.

And that's why we watch them and find them boring.

The only 'super heros' movies I have watched actually at the movies is the Guardians of the Galaxy series. I did go to the new Avatar at the local theater, which I enjoyed a lot. I am looking forward to Guardians 3 coming in a few months.

I have seen several of the super hero movies of the past few years on other formats but they are just not up to what they could have been in my opinion.

a reply to: American-philosopher

Perhaps it is just me, but I really liked the original Guardians of the Galaxy and Deadpool movies more than any of the other DC or Marvel movies.

I embrace the deep silliness of having costumed superheroes.

a reply to: ketsuko

Well I guess it good you didnt watch doctor strange 2 where Wanda becomes strongest being ever. Its like if she was that strong why couldnt she beat Thanos all by her lonesome self.

I have been thinking about this and this is more apparent in She Hulk. We like the Marvel super hero's because each hero had maybe a personality draw back or some thign to that degree. Banner was a smary scientist that probably use to fighting Tony stark rich playboy, We also enjoyed the inter character dynamics as well as some times the heroes wouldnt get along or see eye to eye with other hero's. there were draw backs to these hero's.

What was the draw back to She Hulk? that she couldnt keep a man?

DC is only winning because Marvel super saturated the market with less than stellar films, and unless You're a true Marvel fan, Im certain some are difficult to tolerate,. While DC puts out fewer, less gimmicky tellings of their characters, just higher quality films IMO. Even though I am one of those Marvel fans Im referencing.

a reply to: American-philosopher

It's the Hero's Journey where you watch the character who becomes the hero/heroine of the story fight through adversity to discover who and what they are, earn their powers and abilities (whatever they may be), and go on to narrowly win through the greatest obstacles of their lives.

Modern strong female characters don't do that. They automatically know everything and are all powerful. If you pay attention, very often the only thing holding them back is something that oppresses them, not a need to learn and earn anything. And there are seldom any real stakes. These new women are boring because no one ever feels like they might actually lose.

See, I preferred DC movies over Marvel all the way, although my avatar would suggest otherwise (I just like Thanos, not movie Thanos, original comic Thanos.) The way I saw it there were two types of superhero movies. With Marvel, it was bright, colourful and fun jokes (these jokes have turned into annoying quips every 10 seconds), these were movies for kids. With DC, it was dark, serious and had gravitas. Filmed as a movie epic like Gladiator, Arrival etc.

Because of this, most of the Marvel fans were in uproar and non-stop complaining about how dark it was, which in turn, 'forced' DC into changing how they were presenting their movies resulting in a flip flopping of 'do I want to be for kids, do I want to be for adults' ultimately hurting the franchise even more and lacking it's own identity.

Fast forward to today and I don't see things getting any better considering they've let James Gunn take over everything DC going forward, (yes, that's the guy who joked on Twitter about Paedophilia, a lot!) Gone, is Henry Cavill as Superman and the rest. They are going to use The Flash movie to reset the franchise and capitulate to the Marvel Moaners.

The best thing about DC movies was how dark and serious they were. Not to mention the action. Look at the fight scenes in Man of Steel, Batman v Superman and Zack Snyders Justice League (Not Joss (another huge fan of children and minors) Whedons abomination). The difference in scale and style between Marvel and DC's action scenes are night and day and I mean that both figuratively and literally.

Hopefully I'm completely wrong and the new DC 'look' works well but I highly doubt it.

I am, however, looking forward to The Flash, it will be the last 'dark' movie of this iteration of DC before the reboot, plus, it has my fave characters from all the DC movies I've seen to date make a grand return, Michael Shannon as General Zod and Antje Traue as Faora-Ul.

Here's hoping!!

a reply to: TheMadTitan

See, to me, the only thing actually serious about DC was Batman, and then they made Ben Affleck Batman and had him do a bunch of stuff Batman doesn't traditionally do. Buh-bye, Batman.

Superman is a giant boy scout, not the broody persona they made him into.

Wonder Woman was OK.

Aquaman was a cavalcade of underwater screaming where they used explosions to interrupt/end every other conversation - Aquaman Writers: Uh, don't know how to end this convo, and it's getting awkward ... Oh, yeah, EXPLOSION!

a reply to: didntasktobeborned

I kind of disagree. DC is putting out great content like you said or at least better then Marvels but I am for semi consistent story telling and character progression. Even if it may not be in the direction I want it to go at least story telling is happening and I dont half to worry about them wiping the slate clean because a different showrunner was brought on broad.

I mean DC cant even agree to who they want to play Superman. Even though Henry Cavil had a Cameo as superman in Black Adam.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: American-philosopher



Modern strong female characters don't do that. They automatically know everything and are all powerful. If you pay attention, very often the only thing holding them back is something that oppresses them, not a need to learn and earn anything. And there are seldom any real stakes. These new women are boring because no one ever feels like they might actually lose.

Wow you must have seen Wakanda Forever. haha.

But yes you are exactly right

a reply to: TheMadTitan

You prefer DC? what about all the resets? is this next reset like the 4th reset DC has since Man of Steel?

Love him or hate him with how Kevin Fiege has the keys to vault but I think at least with Marvel there is the pretense of forward thinking. And not I am going to wipe the slate clean because I am the new director and thats not my vision. Again we saw how well that worked for the modern star wars right of the rotating directors.

I mean DC cant even agree to who they want to play Superman.

This bothered me about DC as well, the different actors are a little hard to get used to..but compare one Marvel film to Joker..Even the last Wolverine, though dark and R rated didn't come close IMO. Just that one movie, Joker, was worth any ten Marvel flicks. Even though the scene in Love and Thunder with the little kids fighting made me cry a bit.

originally posted by: didntasktobeborned

I mean DC cant even agree to who they want to play Superman.

Just that one movie, Joker, was worth any ten Marvel flicks. Even though the scene in Love and Thunder with the little kids fighting made me cry a bit.

I dont know about about that. Winter Soldier is a damn good movie.

Also susprised some people here in ATS dont like Civil War just for the philosophical discussion it displays all throughout the movie of is self government better or should you be policed.

originally posted by: American-philosopher

originally posted by: didntasktobeborned

I mean DC cant even agree to who they want to play Superman.

Just that one movie, Joker, was worth any ten Marvel flicks. Even though the scene in Love and Thunder with the little kids fighting made me cry a bit.

I dont know about about that. Winter Soldier is a damn good movie.

Also susprised some people here in ATS dont like Civil War just for the philosophical discussion it displays all throughout the movie of is self government better or should you be policed.

Remember that the OP was comparing Phase 4 Marvel productions with the latest DC productions. The 2 mentioned by you are from the Infinity Saga (before Phase 4).

Personally, I don't think the new DC movies are much better than the new Marvel movies (starting with Phase 4), they both almost equally suck. They suck especially when you're comparing to the Infinity Saga, and the 2 last Avengers movies in particular (Infinity War and Endgame). These 2 also stand out quite a bit from the newer movies in terms of budget.

I would say though that I enjoyed Eternals more than the Joker, and Dr. Strange in the multiverse more than The Batman, which I found to be terribly dragged out and boring, and a totally miscast Batman, heard him being referred to as emo-Batman, which is pretty appropiate. I did enjoy Black Adam more than any of the following Phase 4 movies though:

Black Widow
Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings
Thor: Love and Thunder

I would say Black Adam is about on par with Spider-Man: No Way Home. Still not good, but doable. Same budget as well, 200M. (I have to say that I was never that into Spider-Man though)

I don't think it's fair to compare crappy shows like She-Hulk with the latest DC movies though, as the OP did. Then you have to compare crappy Marvel shows with crappy shows like The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrrow, etc. (the Arrowverse). And then you also have to have a look at pretty decent shows like Loki, and not only mention She-Hulk as an example of how DC is "winning".

Nope, DC ain't winning yet. Not to mention that the new Superman movie will probably suck because it'll be young Superman (and no Henry Cavill, who fit the role quite well). Of course, I haven't seen the new Black Panther yet, which I think is a big factor in the OP's opinion, as someone said earlier, 'you must have seen Wakanda Forever'. But then again, a major difference in opinion between me and the OP is probably also the movie The Batman, which I didn't like at all. I may even dislike that one as much as I disliked what I consider the worst Marvel movie in Phase 4, Black Widow, who I didn't need a separate movie for, a side character without powers, meh. But it's woke I guess because you have a powerful woman beating misogynist men, Galadriel style in Rings of Power.

You know what, since I'm still List-Man, let's see if I can make a ranking list of Marvel and DC movies since 2020 (after Phase 3 ended for Marvel), and just doing the movies, in terms of which I enjoyed the most:

Zack Snyder's Justice League (but I'm not sure if I should count this one cause most of the best scenes were already released in 2017, so I'll start again)

Eternals (M)
Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness (M)
Black Adam (DC) / Spider-Man: No Way Home (M)
The Joker (DC)
Thor: Love and Thunder (M) / Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings (M)
Wonder Woman 1984 (DC) / The Suicide Squad (DC)
Black Widow (M) / The Batman (DC)
Birds of Prey (DC)

Looks like Marvel is winning for me. But I have to point out that starting with Eternals, I do not consider any of these movies to be (very) good (that's also why I separated Zack Snyder's Justice League, cause that one is quite good). On a scale of 1 to 10 (like IMDB), I'd say Eternals is about a 6, the next one a 5.5, the next line 5, etc. Incidentally, that's 6 DC movies and 6 Marvel movies, making for a good comparison.

Average Marvel rating: 4.6
Average DC rating: 3.7 (3.66667)

For comparison, Zack Snyder's Justice League is at least an 8.5 for me. Infinity War: 9.5, Endgame: 9.

Guardians of the Galaxy (8.5)
Thor: Ragnarok (8.5)
The Avengers (8)
Thor: Dark World (7.9)
Justice League 2017 (7.9)
Guardians of the Galaxy 2 (7.8)
Age of Ultron (7.7)
Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (7.6)
Aquaman (7.5)
Civil War (7.5)
Thor (7.4)
Captain Marvel (7.3)
Iron Man (7.2)
Iron Man 3 (7.1)
Iron Man 2 (7)
Shazam! (6.9)
Man of Steel (6.8)
Doctor Strange (6.7)
The Incredible Hulk (6.6)
Suicide Squad (6.5)
Ant-Man and the Wasp (6)
Spider-Man: Far From Home (5.5)
Captain America: The Winter Soldier (5)
Captain America: The First Avenger (4.5)
Ant-Man (4.5)
Spider-Man Homecoming (4.5)
Black Panther (4)
Wonder Woman (4)

Some remarks regarding my list there at the end...

As you can see, I'm not so into Spider-Man and Captain Marvel is unusually high for a Strong Woman-type woke movie, but that's because a large portion of the movie does not take place on earth but in space and on other planets, has spaceships and more Sci-Fi aspects than earth based superhero movies. And Sci-Fi is my favorite genre. That's also why the Thor movies are fairly high in there along with Guardians of the Galaxy. Even the first Thor movie has a large portion that is not taking place on earth.

Man of Steel also has a portion of the movie that is more space based Sci-Fi (not on earth, but on Krypton, I count other planets as falling under my description of space based Sci-Fi, even though it's technically not space of course, like Star Trek), but I've seen enough Super-Man movies already. But this is also why I'm usually not so into Batman, Spiderman and Captain America movies.

I like Ant-Man when he's growing big, that's always funny. As he does in Civil War, hilarious. Puts a smile on my face just thinking about that scene:

With Black Adam I found it difficult to follow who the superheroes are and what their abilities and limitations precisely are, especially because I'm unfamiliar with any of them and the pacing of the movie is so fast. Especially the character played by Pierce Brosnan was a bit of a mystery to me, sort of like a Dr. Strange or something (looked like he was doing something akin to the mirrorverse thingy). But that's the main reason for me that one only has a 5 rating, I just wasn't very invested in these characters, not knowing them very well and the action sequences being a bit unclear; whereas if you compare that with the action sequence in the clip above, there it's very clear what everyone's abilities are and how the writers have turned that into a fun well choreographed combat scene between them where all their abilities shine and have some function in that engagement. It just works really well and it's fun to watch. That's missing from Black Adam where you have a similar engagement with multiple superheroes with different abilities.

Average Marvel movies before Phase 4: 6.9
Average DC movies before Phase 4: 6.7 (but that's simply because there are less, so also less crappy ones, only Wonder Woman really)

a reply to: American-philosopher

DC is Losing horribly... they were losing all along. Especially since they booted the best superman we've seen after they give him a cameo. DC has no story... its just super hero movies

At least Marvel has a story line... Though i think its been declining after end game.

Now IF they bring back all the previous Xmen actors... Marvel will rule again!!

Im invested in the story of the world in MCU

Theres nothing connected to a greater story in DC... and they keep rebooting the same characters and killing them!!

Holy Hell Batman!!

originally posted by: whereislogic
a reply to: American-philosopher

Remember that the OP was comparing Phase 4 Marvel productions with the latest DC productions. The 2 mentioned by you are from the Infinity Saga (before Phase 4).

Oh, I just realized, you are the OP. I guess you had already moved on to considering movies from other time periods. I guess my remark there could be edited with the uderstanding that OP is referring to the original post* and the last sentence should then read: "The 2 mentioned by you now ..." (*: instead of original poster as initially intended)

Whatever, was just meant as an introduction to the rest of my comment anyway, as to who is "winning" (after Phase 3 ended).

You could also compare them to see who is winning economically (the 6 vs 6 I did earlier, ignoring Zack Snyder's Justice League, cause that's just a different cut). But Corona throws things a bit out of whack and it may not be a fair comparison (Marvel seems to have less movies that came out during Corona lockdowns). Numbers taken from the-numbers.com:

Total budget spent on the 6 latest DC films (that I compared earlier): 922M.
Worldwide Gross: 2762M (most of that is from Joker: 1069M with only a 55M budget; ROI: 19.44 or 1944%)
Return on Investment (ROI): 3 or 300%

Total budget Marvel: 1200M
Worldwide Gross: 4837M (most of that from Spiderman: 1910M, 200M budget; ROI: 9.55 or 955%)
ROI: 4.03 or 403%

So yeah, Marvel is winning economically as well. Their movies also have higher budgets on average. Especially Joker is such a cheap movie, you can almost call it a B movie. Still fairly well done with the amount of budget they had, but I wouldn't say it's worth the praise and worldwide gross it generated, but then we're back to my enjoyment of it again (represented by my 4.5 rating earlier). Also keep in mind, Joker was before Corona, the only one of the 12 movies compared. Still high though (the gross compared to the budget, even for 'before Corona').

Just having a quick look at Black Panther: Wakanda Forever, cause that is sort of a key aspect of the OP's opinion as mentioned earlier:

Budget: 250M; ww gross: 807M; ROI: 3.23 or 323%. Still doing better in the box office than your average DC movie, or the DC movie average to be exact (since Marvel Phase 3 ended).

originally posted by: whereislogic

originally posted by: American-philosopher

originally posted by: didntasktobeborned

I mean DC cant even agree to who they want to play Superman.

I don't think it's fair to compare crappy shows like She-Hulk with the latest DC movies though, as the OP did. Then you have to compare crappy Marvel shows with crappy shows like The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrrow, etc. (the Arrowverse). And then you also have to have a look at pretty decent shows like Loki, and not only mention She-Hulk as an example of how DC is "winning".


I am fine comparing those DC shows to the Marvel shows, She Hulk is almost unwatchable. It seems with the The Marvel Shows it goes back to the problem that Phase four is having with not having any villians or any villians you care about.

a reply to: whereislogic

I am fine comparing those DC shows to Marvels shows, She Hulk is almost unwatchable. and Hawkeye aint that much better.