Extraterrestrial Civilisations in our own Galaxy

a reply to: Direne

We may have one thing in common which could act as a means of communication: mathematics. Westerners may not speak Chinese and vice versa, but we can communicate a lot of ideas with mathematics. Physics is a good example. It may take 100 pages of human language to describe the phenomenon of gravity but one equation which takes up one line describes it perfectly. The alien sits under a tree. An apple falls on its head. You hold up a sign with Newton's formula: F = G m1 m2/r2(sq). They get it. And communication commences - maybe.

originally posted by: Asmodeus3
I think the article I linked argues that finding methane is a compelling argument for the existence of life on another planet. It is obviously not proof that life exists in this planet but the chances are highly likely.

www.universetoday.com...

It’s Not Conclusive, But Methane is Probably the Best Sign of Life on Exoplanets

When the James Webb Space Telescope aims at exoplanet atmospheres, it’ll use spectroscopy to identify chemical elements. One of the things it’s looking for is methane, a chemical compound that can indicate the presence of life.

Methane is a compelling biosignature. Finding a large amount of methane in an exoplanet’s atmosphere might be our most reliable indication that life’s at work there. There are abiotic sources of methane, but for the most part, methane comes from life.

You and I read that article differently. For example, did you read this paragraph from your link?

“Clearly, the mere detection of methane in an exoplanet’s atmosphere is not sufficient evidence to indicate the presence of life given the variety of abiotic methane-production mechanisms. Instead, the entire planetary and astrophysical context must be taken into account to interpret atmospheric methane.”

Even the part of the article you quoted doesn't actually say finding methane is compelling, it says "Finding a large amount of methane..." may be compelling, and you left out the "large amount" part in your summary of how you interpreted the article.

If you look at the graph showing biotic versus abiotic sources on Earth, an important point seems to be that the mere detection of methane may not indicate life is likely at all if the amount detected falls below a certain threshold seen on the graph. So the graph implies that detecting methane alone is completely insufficient to imply life, it must be present in sufficient concentrations.

Here's another link that puts the concept into words about the concentration level methane needs to suggest life:

How to find life on distant planets: maybe try looking for carbon dioxide and methane
“You can make a little bit of methane without life,” study author Joshua Krissansen-Totton, an exoplanet expert at the University of Washington, tells The Verge. “But to get a lot of methane in the atmosphere, it’s pretty hard to explain without life.”

Further, as the title of the article says, it's not methane alone that suggests life, but "a lot" of methane AND also carbon dioxide. Not one or the other, but both at the same time:

"A group of scientists thinks we should look for two gases in particular: carbon dioxide and methane."

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: Direne

We may have one thing in common which could act as a means of communication: mathematics. Westerners may not speak Chinese and vice versa, but we can communicate a lot of ideas with mathematics. Physics is a good example. It may take 100 pages of human language to describe the phenomenon of gravity but one equation which takes up one line describes it perfectly. The alien sits under a tree. An apple falls on its head. You hold up a sign with Newton's formula: F = G m1 m2/r2(sq). They get it. And communication commences - maybe.

Recent studies of the brain disagree with that theory for humans any way. How might intelligent ET brains function should be our first question.

Recent studies of the brain, however, indicate that mathematics and language each runs completely different routes in the brains of mathematicians. More importantly, there appears to be almost no overlap.

indianapublicmedia.org...

a reply to: Asmodeus3

I think dark matter would have to be characterized first before we could even start to recognize a life form. I agree with Direne that humans will always be looking for something similar to themselves because we can't describe an unknown. It occurred to me that if we could develop a mathematical description of a human, that would be an easier way to transmit the information. Voyager carries a lot of meaningless stuff from Earth including pictures. I have no idea whether they included descriptive mathematics of our planet. I doubt that the music and I love Lucy programs will impress anyone. But a mathematical model of a DNA molecule might get someone's attention.

a reply to: quintessentone

I meant it as a problem solving method. Aliens and humans could share compatible views of the universe. The only way we would know that is by comparing our mathematics or problem solving formulas. Language may never be compatible. But if we live in the same universe we may find some commonality in mathematics.

Also, I don't agree with that article. Mathematics is a language of notation with explanations and solutions. It simplifies what we blabber about. Humans talk to much.

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: quintessentone

I meant it as a problem solving method. Aliens and humans could share compatible views of the universe. The only way we would know that is by comparing our mathematics or problem solving formulas. Language may never be compatible. But if we live in the same universe we may find some commonality in mathematics.

Yes but that supposes the alien has an inkling of what you are trying to relay...after showing the alien the equation how do you go about demonstrating gravity to the alien. Would just dropping something on the ground suffice?

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: quintessentone

I meant it as a problem solving method. Aliens and humans could share compatible views of the universe. The only way we would know that is by comparing our mathematics or problem solving formulas. Language may never be compatible. But if we live in the same universe we may find some commonality in mathematics.

Yes but that supposes the alien has an inkling of what you are trying to relay...after showing the alien the equation how do you go about demonstrating gravity to the alien. Would just dropping something on the ground suffice?

That might take some creative thinking. The reason we go into the lab is to demonstrate and work with some physical phenomenon. Take the alien into a lab and start testing stuff. Chances are they'll respond in kind with their interpretation of what you're trying to project. I understand we have to assume a lot of variables here. But since we have zero information at the moment about an alien race, all ideas are on the table.

I'm a bench scientist so that's how I think.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

originally posted by: Asmodeus3
I think the article I linked argues that finding methane is a compelling argument for the existence of life on another planet. It is obviously not proof that life exists in this planet but the chances are highly likely.

www.universetoday.com...

It’s Not Conclusive, But Methane is Probably the Best Sign of Life on Exoplanets

When the James Webb Space Telescope aims at exoplanet atmospheres, it’ll use spectroscopy to identify chemical elements. One of the things it’s looking for is methane, a chemical compound that can indicate the presence of life.

Methane is a compelling biosignature. Finding a large amount of methane in an exoplanet’s atmosphere might be our most reliable indication that life’s at work there. There are abiotic sources of methane, but for the most part, methane comes from life.

You and I read that article differently. For example, did you read this paragraph from your link?

“Clearly, the mere detection of methane in an exoplanet’s atmosphere is not sufficient evidence to indicate the presence of life given the variety of abiotic methane-production mechanisms. Instead, the entire planetary and astrophysical context must be taken into account to interpret atmospheric methane.”

Even the part of the article you quoted doesn't actually say finding methane is compelling, it says "Finding a large amount of methane..." may be compelling, and you left out the "large amount" part in your summary of how you interpreted the article.

If you look at the graph showing biotic versus abiotic sources on Earth, an important point seems to be that the mere detection of methane may not indicate life is likely at all if the amount detected falls below a certain threshold seen on the graph. So the graph implies that detecting methane alone is completely insufficient to imply life, it must be present in sufficient concentrations.

Here's another link that puts the concept into words about the concentration level methane needs to suggest life:

How to find life on distant planets: maybe try looking for carbon dioxide and methane
“You can make a little bit of methane without life,” study author Joshua Krissansen-Totton, an exoplanet expert at the University of Washington, tells The Verge. “But to get a lot of methane in the atmosphere, it’s pretty hard to explain without life.”

Further, as the title of the article says, it's not methane alone that suggests life, but "a lot" of methane AND also carbon dioxide. Not one or the other, but both at the same time:

"A group of scientists thinks we should look for two gases in particular: carbon dioxide and methane."

Yes I have looked at the article and seen other comments pointing out that methane isn't on its own enough to prove that life exists but it's a very good reason to think that it may exist. I have already stated it in my replies earlier in this thread that methane on its own isn't proof of life.
The quantity is also important but if I have left it out earlier it was by accident.

It's like a marker that indicates life may exist. If you on the top of this can detect carbon dioxide and/or water then the chances are great there is life there.

Others will insist on the presence of liguid water before anything else.

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: Asmodeus3

I think dark matter would have to be characterized first before we could even start to recognize a life form. I agree with Direne that humans will always be looking for something similar to themselves because we can't describe an unknown. It occurred to me that if we could develop a mathematical description of a human, that would be an easier way to transmit the information. Voyager carries a lot of meaningless stuff from Earth including pictures. I have no idea whether they included descriptive mathematics of our planet. I doubt that the music and I love Lucy programs will impress anyone. But a mathematical model of a DNA molecule might get someone's attention.

If you see in our movies and in the public perception many of these aliens are presented as humanoid creatures. But how likely is that another species evolved and looks like us? That is highly unlikely but not impossible.

Anthropocentric approaches to pretty much everything.

a reply to: nonspecific
Fermi was told his Paradox was indeed incorrect but told not to disclose because of the ramifications. At least that what I was told while at LL working on associated projects.

As for Drake, the equation holds true but there are tangential factors such as progenitor action and genetic engineering programs that seem to be occurring throughout the Universe. Again, I can’t show documentation but I feel disclosure will happen between next year and 2033. I have seen that date as a recommendation but I’m sure we are well on our way toward that timetable accelerating

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: quintessentone

I meant it as a problem solving method. Aliens and humans could share compatible views of the universe. The only way we would know that is by comparing our mathematics or problem solving formulas. Language may never be compatible. But if we live in the same universe we may find some commonality in mathematics.

Also, I don't agree with that article. Mathematics is a language of notation with explanations and solutions. It simplifies what we blabber about. Humans talk to much.

In terms of communication I think the best bet is mathematics as it seems to be the Universal language. It's unlikely they understand our languages or us understanding them. But at the same time we are not sure whether they can speak the way we do or even whether they can see and hear the way we do.

a reply to: Asmodeus3

be cautious with that mantra, probably fostered by mathematicians. Mathematics is not a universal language. Not even logic is. Mathematics is just a language and, like all languages, limited to its users and the representational capacity of their brains.

Mathematics, no matter how hard mathematicians try, is clearly imperfect. It is just a tool to complement the limited brainpower of human beings that require to create models of those things their limited brain can apprehend. There are as many mathematics as species.

We can genuinely accept that, whatever the mathematics one species uses, the result must be Universal. But this conclusion is also wrong: all mathematical models of the physical world break down at some point, and what is the physical world depends on what species you belong to.

For an insect, your mathematics would probably be useless.

originally posted by: Direne
a reply to: Asmodeus3

be cautious with that mantra, probably fostered by mathematicians. Mathematics is not a universal language. Not even logic is. Mathematics is just a language and, like all languages, limited to its users and the representational capacity of their brains.

Mathematics, no matter how hard mathematicians try, is clearly imperfect. It is just a tool to complement the limited brainpower of human beings that require to create models of those things their limited brain can apprehend. There are as many mathematics as species.

We can genuinely accept that, whatever the mathematics one species uses, the result must be Universal. But this conclusion is also wrong: all mathematical models of the physical world break down at some point, and what is the physical world depends on what species you belong to.

For an insect, your mathematics would probably be useless.

You reminded me of the following

www.goodreads.com...

The good Christian should beware of mathematicians. The danger already exists that mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and confine man in the bonds of Hell.

Saint Augustine

a reply to: Asmodeus3

I like St. Augustine, specially his insight about The City of God and The City of the Damned (“The City of Man”).

My point is that certain fundamental questions about the physical world will never be answered by mathematics. Mathematics was invented, not discovered. It is a pure human invention that humans use as a product of the human mind, inherently tailored for the human mind, and only usable for humans.

Again, my opinion is that the question of contact with extraterrestrial civilizations is cursed, not because of distances and technological problems, rather, because there is no way two radically different life forms can communicate at all.

You can spend aeons in a room with a lichen, and you both would fail in communicating. You cannot even do it with dolphins beyond teaching them how to graciously push a ball with htier nose, and some other amusing tricks. That's what I meant that humankind is alone, regardless of whether there is life or not elsewhere.

(But no tears!! Aliens are in the same exact position: alone)

originally posted by: Direne
a reply to: Asmodeus3

be cautious with that mantra, probably fostered by mathematicians. Mathematics is not a universal language. Not even logic is. Mathematics is just a language and, like all languages, limited to its users and the representational capacity of their brains.

Mathematics, no matter how hard mathematicians try, is clearly imperfect. It is just a tool to complement the limited brainpower of human beings that require to create models of those things their limited brain can apprehend. There are as many mathematics as species.

We can genuinely accept that, whatever the mathematics one species uses, the result must be Universal. But this conclusion is also wrong: all mathematical models of the physical world break down at some point, and what is the physical world depends on what species you belong to.

For an insect, your mathematics would probably be useless.

www.newscientist.com...

IF WE ever establish contact with intelligent aliens living on a planet around a distant star, we would expect some problems communicating with them. As we are many light years away, our signals would take many years to reach them, so there would be no scope for snappy repartee. There could be an IQ gap and the aliens might be built from quite different chemistry.

Yet there would be much common ground too. They would be made of similar atoms to us. They could trace their origins back to the big bang 13.7 billion years ago, and they would share with us the universe’s future. However, the surest common culture would be mathematics.

Mathematics has been the language of science for thousands of years, and it is remarkably successful. In a famous essay, the great physicist Eugene Wigner wrote about the “unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics”. Most of us resonate with the perplexity expressed by Wigner, and also with Einstein’s dictum that “the most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehensible”. We marvel at the fact that the universe is not anarchic – that atoms obey the same laws in distant galaxies as in the lab. The aliens would, like us, be astonished by the patterns in our shared cosmos and by the effectiveness of mathematics in describing those patterns

Yes, mathematics is a language which we can use regardless of ethnicity, culture, religion, gender, age, etc. We can communicate using mathematics even if we speak different languages here on Earth and even if our cultures are very different. The question is, if intelligent forms of life exist, can they use mathematics to communicate with us?

a reply to: Asmodeus3

It's a childish game, but let's play...

The limitations of mathematics

The Flaw in Mathematics: Mistakes made in Infinite Set Theory over a Century Ago

"The unsuccessful attempts at a unified theory of physics may be due to the underlying mathematics. Certain conclusions about imperfections in the real small world of quantum mechanics, like the Heisenberg Principle, may instead be pointing to an imperfection in the underlying mathematics."

The Delusions of Cosmology

"The belief that the universe is made of math and that the role of physicists is to reveal its 'secret code' is a pervasive strand of thought in modern science that is indistinguishable from faith."

Faith. An interesting feeling, yet totally useless to understand the Universe.

originally posted by: Phantom423

We may have one thing in common which could act as a means of communication: mathematics. Westerners may not speak Chinese and vice versa, but we can communicate a lot of ideas with mathematics. Physics is a good example. It may take 100 pages of human language to describe the phenomenon of gravity but one equation which takes up one line describes it perfectly. The alien sits under a tree. An apple falls on its head. You hold up a sign with Newton's formula: F = G m1 m2/r2(sq). They get it. And communication commences - maybe.

Well as long as they don't want to eat us. I have said before that the evil alien race that goes to a planet and rapes its resources and while eating anything that moves is actually us. I don't expect another race to be different since intelligence tends to evolve on the predator side of evolution.

originally posted by: Direne

Faith. An interesting feeling, yet totally useless to understand the Universe.

Faith drives everything we do. Its to believe and think about something not provable, yet. Without faith we would be in trees still. Another way to say faith is the ability to think in the abstract world where we spend most of our waking time. You can't even make breakfast without creating it abstractly first, everything around you was an abstract thought before it became real. This is truly the secret to why we are who we are.

If we apply thinking abstractly to religion its the same damn thing, but we call it faith. I laugh every time someone suggests humans would be better off without religion and they just do not know what that would mean in the end, but I would bet it would mean we would be buddies still with chimps. Remove religion and you would need to remove our unique ability to think abstractly.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Phantom423

We may have one thing in common which could act as a means of communication: mathematics. Westerners may not speak Chinese and vice versa, but we can communicate a lot of ideas with mathematics. Physics is a good example. It may take 100 pages of human language to describe the phenomenon of gravity but one equation which takes up one line describes it perfectly. The alien sits under a tree. An apple falls on its head. You hold up a sign with Newton's formula: F = G m1 m2/r2(sq). They get it. And communication commences - maybe.

Well as long as they don't want to eat us. I have said before that the evil alien race that goes to a planet and rapes its resources and while eating anything that moves is actually us. I don't expect another race to be different since intelligence tends to evolve on the predator side of evolution.

Imagine there is a nearby alien race that visits our planet in the very near future and wants peacefully to settle in our planet. Let's say millions of them coming with their spaceships. With only one demand... That we we let them vote for Biden!!!

originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Phantom423

We may have one thing in common which could act as a means of communication: mathematics. Westerners may not speak Chinese and vice versa, but we can communicate a lot of ideas with mathematics. Physics is a good example. It may take 100 pages of human language to describe the phenomenon of gravity but one equation which takes up one line describes it perfectly. The alien sits under a tree. An apple falls on its head. You hold up a sign with Newton's formula: F = G m1 m2/r2(sq). They get it. And communication commences - maybe.

Please don't give me acid indigestion before the weekend! If anyone is watching us from out there, they must be wondering why we continue in self destruct mode. Maybe they'll rescue us in the end. If they were smart, they would turn around and go someplace else to look for intelligent life. Because it ain't here.

Well as long as they don't want to eat us. I have said before that the evil alien race that goes to a planet and rapes its resources and while eating anything that moves is actually us. I don't expect another race to be different since intelligence tends to evolve on the predator side of evolution.

Imagine there is a nearby alien race that visits our planet in the very near future and wants peacefully to settle in our planet. Let's say millions of them coming with their spaceships. With only one demand... That we we let them vote for Biden!!!