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Extraterrestrial Civilisations in our own Galaxy

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posted on Nov, 11 2022 @ 04:59 PM
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originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: quintessentone

I meant it as a problem solving method. Aliens and humans could share compatible views of the universe. The only way we would know that is by comparing our mathematics or problem solving formulas. Language may never be compatible. But if we live in the same universe we may find some commonality in mathematics.

Also, I don't agree with that article. Mathematics is a language of notation with explanations and solutions. It simplifies what we blabber about. Humans talk to much.



In terms of communication I think the best bet is mathematics as it seems to be the Universal language. It's unlikely they understand our languages or us understanding them. But at the same time we are not sure whether they can speak the way we do or even whether they can see and hear the way we do.


Our mathematics are numbers and letters and symbols, there is no way ETs will be using the same methodology.



posted on Nov, 11 2022 @ 05:29 PM
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originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: quintessentone

I meant it as a problem solving method. Aliens and humans could share compatible views of the universe. The only way we would know that is by comparing our mathematics or problem solving formulas. Language may never be compatible. But if we live in the same universe we may find some commonality in mathematics.

Also, I don't agree with that article. Mathematics is a language of notation with explanations and solutions. It simplifies what we blabber about. Humans talk to much.



In terms of communication I think the best bet is mathematics as it seems to be the Universal language. It's unlikely they understand our languages or us understanding them. But at the same time we are not sure whether they can speak the way we do or even whether they can see and hear the way we do.


Our mathematics are numbers and letters and symbols, there is no way ETs will be using the same methodology.


I don't think that's true. The Fibonacci sequence is probably universal. Even if our symbols were different, the idea could be communicated multiple ways.



posted on Nov, 11 2022 @ 06:02 PM
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originally posted by: Phantom423

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: quintessentone

I meant it as a problem solving method. Aliens and humans could share compatible views of the universe. The only way we would know that is by comparing our mathematics or problem solving formulas. Language may never be compatible. But if we live in the same universe we may find some commonality in mathematics.

Also, I don't agree with that article. Mathematics is a language of notation with explanations and solutions. It simplifies what we blabber about. Humans talk to much.



In terms of communication I think the best bet is mathematics as it seems to be the Universal language. It's unlikely they understand our languages or us understanding them. But at the same time we are not sure whether they can speak the way we do or even whether they can see and hear the way we do.


Our mathematics are numbers and letters and symbols, there is no way ETs will be using the same methodology.


I don't think that's true. The Fibonacci sequence is probably universal. Even if our symbols were different, the idea could be communicated multiple ways.


It might work after all spiral galaxies could be referenced.



posted on Nov, 11 2022 @ 06:54 PM
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originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: quintessentone

I meant it as a problem solving method. Aliens and humans could share compatible views of the universe. The only way we would know that is by comparing our mathematics or problem solving formulas. Language may never be compatible. But if we live in the same universe we may find some commonality in mathematics.

Also, I don't agree with that article. Mathematics is a language of notation with explanations and solutions. It simplifies what we blabber about. Humans talk to much.



In terms of communication I think the best bet is mathematics as it seems to be the Universal language. It's unlikely they understand our languages or us understanding them. But at the same time we are not sure whether they can speak the way we do or even whether they can see and hear the way we do.


Our mathematics are numbers and letters and symbols, there is no way ETs will be using the same methodology.


The way we write numbers and letters will be different, however there can be deciphered easily. We will be describing the same sequence for example using different symbols.



posted on Nov, 11 2022 @ 07:31 PM
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originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: quintessentone

I meant it as a problem solving method. Aliens and humans could share compatible views of the universe. The only way we would know that is by comparing our mathematics or problem solving formulas. Language may never be compatible. But if we live in the same universe we may find some commonality in mathematics.

Also, I don't agree with that article. Mathematics is a language of notation with explanations and solutions. It simplifies what we blabber about. Humans talk to much.



In terms of communication I think the best bet is mathematics as it seems to be the Universal language. It's unlikely they understand our languages or us understanding them. But at the same time we are not sure whether they can speak the way we do or even whether they can see and hear the way we do.


Our mathematics are numbers and letters and symbols, there is no way ETs will be using the same methodology.


The way we write numbers and letters will be different, however there can be deciphered easily. We will be describing the same sequence for example using different symbols.


We would have to have ETs fill in their symbols next to ours for mutual understanding of both languages.



posted on Nov, 11 2022 @ 09:02 PM
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a reply to: Gothmog

The results :
We may very well be alone in the universe.


They are here, right under our feet and above our heads. In space time and higher dimensions.



posted on Nov, 11 2022 @ 09:56 PM
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originally posted by: 20Eyes1974
a reply to: Gothmog

The results :
We may very well be alone in the universe.


They are here, right under our feet and above our heads. In space time and higher dimensions.

Your proof ?



posted on Nov, 11 2022 @ 11:59 PM
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originally posted by: Direne
a reply to: Asmodeus3

It's a childish game, but let's play...

The limitations of mathematics

The Flaw in Mathematics: Mistakes made in Infinite Set Theory over a Century Ago




"The unsuccessful attempts at a unified theory of physics may be due to the underlying mathematics. Certain conclusions about imperfections in the real small world of quantum mechanics, like the Heisenberg Principle, may instead be pointing to an imperfection in the underlying mathematics."


The Delusions of Cosmology



"The belief that the universe is made of math and that the role of physicists is to reveal its 'secret code' is a pervasive strand of thought in modern science that is indistinguishable from faith."


Faith. An interesting feeling, yet totally useless to understand the Universe.


I think here we are dealing with two different matters. The limitations we have in terms of describing the physical world using mathematics doesn't imply that we won't be able to communicate with some alien race.

There are several cases where mathematics can serve you well. For example the Dirac Equation is one such case where it describes the existence of spin 1/2 particles including all leptons and quarks as well as predicting the existence of antimatter which was confirmed later on I think in 1932.

I don't think we use faith to understand the Universe. There is plenty of math as well as observations and experiments we have used to understand how the laws of the universe work. There are limitations in our understanding but we are not guided by faith.



posted on Nov, 12 2022 @ 02:22 AM
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a reply to: Asmodeus3

Asmodeus3, I agree with what you say, although in my view the problem of communicating with some ETI does not reduce to finding a suitable language, be it maths, or any other astrolinguistics invention. The mere nature of language is tightly bound to having a specific neural setup, It is the brain one has the one that determines what kind of communication one can establish in terms of conceptualizing reality and forming ideas. How one expresses those ideas comes later on.

Now, the only way to fill the cognitive gap between humans and an ETI (assuming ETIs exist at all) is if, and only if, we accept convergent evolution, namely: that given the same or similar environmental conditions and the same or similar geophysical parameters, evolution will create beings fundamentally the same in their mental structure.

Only in this way can we hope to find intelligent life forms that, however strange their physiology and form may seem to us, have a mental structure that allows us to communicate with them. Only in this way is it possible to attempt to establish communication. What language we use will be another question, much simpler to resolve. This is precisely why you cannot communicate with lichens, jellyfish, or any insect. Nor can you communicate with any species of the plant kingdom.

But neither can you communicate with monkeys, chimpanzees, orangutans, macaques, bats, dolphins or whales, human forms that, mutatis mutandi, are similar to human beings.

One might think that you cannot because these beings are not intelligent, but this is a fallacy. One is not intelligent, one is intelligent in the human way, or in the mosquito way, or in the dolphin way.... or in the ETI way.

You could communicate with the indigenous people of the North Sentinel Islands despite the huge cultural difference, but only because you both share the same mental structure. Expecting an ETI to share your same mental structure is too much to ask for. Too much. And that is why I argue that the fundamental question is not whether humans are alone, but whether they can ever stop being alone. And my answer is this: no, they cannot.

And they can't because even if convergent evolution were true, the odds that 100% of the genome of a human and an ETI would be identical are close to zero. Don't forget that the genetic distance between chimpanzees, bonobos and humans is barely 1%, yet intelligent communication with them is simply impossible because of this.

Does this mean that any coexistence with aliens is impossible? No, not at all. You and your cat are separated by a great genetic distance, and that does not prevent you from establishing communication codes. But that doesn't mean you can teach him how a laser pointer, radar, or Einstein's field equations work, nor will he ever be able to teach you what it means to be a cat.

Let's face it: humans are alone, even if they are not.



posted on Nov, 12 2022 @ 05:01 AM
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The WOW signal seems to have been explained!!

www.livescience.com...


The prominent and still-mysterious Wow! Signal, which briefly blared in a radio telescope the night of Aug. 15, 1977, may have come from a sun-like star located 1,800 light-years away in the constellation Sagittarius



So every link I have provided has given a different explanation for the WOW signal...
Hardly solved the 40-year old mystery.


The independent from the UK has a similar article

www.independent.co.uk...


Now, however, amateur astronomer Alberto Caballero has suggested that the source of the broadcast could be an Earth-like planet.




And a third source on this

futurism.com...


However, Professor Antonio Paris, of St Petersburg College, has now discovered the explanation: A pair of comets. The work was published in the Journal of the Washington Academy of Sciences.










edit on 12-11-2022 by Asmodeus3 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 12 2022 @ 08:38 AM
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a reply to: Asmodeus3

I still think the problem is information transfer. We're not communicating with anyone and no one is communicating with us without some new way to transfer information at a speed that makes sense in our lifetime spans. That includes the lifetime spans of aliens too. As I mentioned previously, we've sent I Love Lucy out all over the universe. It's still out there although the signal has probably dissipated to practically nothing by now. We should be discussing ways to transfer information that are more efficient than what we are doing now. The speed of light is a barrier, not a limit. We need to think more creatively about information transfer.


edit on 12-11-2022 by Phantom423 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 12 2022 @ 12:16 PM
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originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: Asmodeus3

I still think the problem is information transfer. We're not communicating with anyone and no one is communicating with us without some new way to transfer information at a speed that makes sense in our lifetime spans. That includes the lifetime spans of aliens too. As I mentioned previously, we've sent I Love Lucy out all over the universe. It's still out there although the signal has probably dissipated to practically nothing by now. We should be discussing ways to transfer information that are more efficient than what we are doing now. The speed of light is a barrier, not a limit. We need to think more creatively about information transfer.



One major issue I have discussed earlier is that radio-waves obey the inverse square law and their intensity diminishes for large scales. I don't think these signals can be picked up or be distinguished from the background noise.

When you say the speed of light is a barrier but not a limit, what do you mean?



posted on Nov, 12 2022 @ 04:54 PM
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a reply to: Asmodeus3

General and special relativity do not forbid faster than light travel. Light travels at the same speed for all observers. However, to increase the velocity of a sub c particle to faster than light speed would take an infinite amount of energy. And that's the problem - or not. Faster than light travel also creates negative energy, also a problem. We can't do any of this or even imagine how to do it. But perhaps someone else out there has conquered that beast.

This impossibility only applies locally. Wormholes, if they exist, can exceed the speed of light theoretically and bend space-time such that distances become much shorter.

As regards the transfer of information, perhaps a type of wormhole could act as a transfer agent.

There's an interesting paper focusing on superluminal light. Unfortunately, it's behind a paywall, but here's what the conclusion says:



CONCLUSION

In this paper, we have presented a critical assessment regarding the possibility, from the point of view of the basic physical principles of relativity and causality, of faster-than-c signaling. Our analysis is motivated by some recent theoretical predictions of “superluminal” photon propagation [2, 3, 14]. We have shown that such effects are kinematically compatible with special relativity, because the latter requires only the existence of an invariant speed, not necessarily a maximum one. Also, they do not lead to causal paradoxes, which can arise only from tachyons whose speed has no fixed value in a given reference frame. Perhaps surprisingly, it is the soft breaking of Lorentz invariance, which always occurs in these effects, that fixes the value of the speed of the faster-than-c photons in a specific frame and thus saves causality. Such a breaking is, however, due to the choice of a vacuum state and does not extend to the invariance group of the fundamental physical laws, which still remains the usual C = c Lorentz group.


Faster-than-c Signals, Special Relativity, and Causality
Stefano Liberati
Department of Physics, Gravitation Theory Group, University of Maryland, College Park, Maryland 20742-4111
E-mail: [email protected]
URL: www2.physics.umd.edu...˜liberati

I can send you a PDF if you like.



posted on Nov, 14 2022 @ 02:15 AM
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originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: Asmodeus3

General and special relativity do not forbid faster than light travel. Light travels at the same speed for all observers. However, to increase the velocity of a sub c particle to faster than light speed would take an infinite amount of energy. And that's the problem - or not. Faster than light travel also creates negative energy, also a problem. We can't do any of this or even imagine how to do it. But perhaps someone else out there has conquered that beast.

This impossibility only applies locally. Wormholes, if they exist, can exceed the speed of light theoretically and bend space-time such that distances become much shorter.

As regards the transfer of information, perhaps a type of wormhole could act as a transfer agent.

There's an interesting paper focusing on superluminal light. Unfortunately, it's behind a paywall, but here's what the conclusion says:



CONCLUSION

In this paper, we have presented a critical assessment regarding the possibility, from the point of view of the basic physical principles of relativity and causality, of faster-than-c signaling. Our analysis is motivated by some recent theoretical predictions of “superluminal” photon propagation [2, 3, 14]. We have shown that such effects are kinematically compatible with special relativity, because the latter requires only the existence of an invariant speed, not necessarily a maximum one. Also, they do not lead to causal paradoxes, which can arise only from tachyons whose speed has no fixed value in a given reference frame. Perhaps surprisingly, it is the soft breaking of Lorentz invariance, which always occurs in these effects, that fixes the value of the speed of the faster-than-c photons in a specific frame and thus saves causality. Such a breaking is, however, due to the choice of a vacuum state and does not extend to the invariance group of the fundamental physical laws, which still remains the usual C = c Lorentz group.


Faster-than-c Signals, Special Relativity, and Causality
Stefano Liberati
Department of Physics, Gravitation Theory Group, University of Maryland, College Park, Maryland 20742-4111
E-mail: [email protected]
URL: www2.physics.umd.edu...˜liberati

I can send you a PDF if you like.




I have come across a few papers in the past which have proposed a variable light speed. Notably Professor João Magueijo from Imperial College has written a paper sometime ago with another scientist that I can't remember on VLS i.e variable light speed and this attracted very good attention as it could explain the horizon problem. In their paper they have hypothesised a speed of up to 3 × 10^33 meters per second.

However the dominant hypothesis for which there is plenty of evidence is the cosmic inflation. It is not yet proved and cannot be regarded as the only hypothesis but there is good evidence for it. By horizon problem we mean the issue with any two causally disconnected regions that seem to have the same temperature plus or minus some very small fluctuations. The universe seems very homogeneous in a few words everywhere.

In special relativity nothing can travel faster than light and only particles with zero rest mass i.e photons can travel at the speed of light. General Relativity accounts for gravity and in a similar manner nothing can be accelerated to the speed of light as this will require an infinite amount of energy when at the same the mass of the object will become infinite.

However there are solutions of Einstein's Field Equations that permit distortion of spacetime and are well known. One of them is wormholes that have never been observed and another one is the Alcubierre drive where a spacecraft can contract spacetime in front of it and expand spacetime behind it. In this scenario you need negative energy.

But there is a difference between being able to travel faster than light and between distortions of spacetime that could result in an apparent faster than light speed from the point of view of another distant observer.
edit on 14-11-2022 by Asmodeus3 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 14 2022 @ 10:04 AM
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a reply to: Asmodeus3

All that you said is true. But my point was that the problem of communication with aliens is information transfer and how it could be done. I'm not sure whether our receivers could even detect a signal that was generated by an instrument that utilized a wormhole setup.

Just trying to think out of the box here. Our lack of technology to accomplish something like that probably says, that at least right now, it can't be done.



posted on Nov, 14 2022 @ 11:12 AM
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originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: Asmodeus3

All that you said is true. But my point was that the problem of communication with aliens is information transfer and how it could be done. I'm not sure whether our receivers could even detect a signal that was generated by an instrument that utilized a wormhole setup.

Just trying to think out of the box here. Our lack of technology to accomplish something like that probably says, that at least right now, it can't be done.




Have you come across João Magueijo?!

He has some very good videos and interviews. I don't know if it's ok to suggest reading of his publications because I don't know the mathematical level and what you have studied in the past. But if you are fine then his publications a relatively easy task.

It's also my understanding that the way we communicate we won't be able to find anything. And I think we don't have the technology to pick up possible different communications that may have come our way. But still this is still speculation.

Trying to get pick up radio signals is more of a futile attempt.



posted on Nov, 15 2022 @ 07:59 AM
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a reply to: Asmodeus3

No, I have not come across his work. I'll take a look at his papers.



posted on Nov, 15 2022 @ 08:04 AM
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originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: Asmodeus3

No, I have not come across his work. I'll take a look at his papers.



VLS João Magueijo

You can Google and see what results you get.



posted on Nov, 15 2022 @ 05:19 PM
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A new paper published this month. Wormholes may be detectable. If the research holds up under scrutiny, we may have something here.

Polarized image of equatorial emission in horizonless spacetimes: Traversable wormholes
Valentin Deliyski, Galin Gyulchev, Petya Nedkova, and Stoytcho Yazadjiev
Phys. Rev. D 106, 104024 – Published 10 November 2022




ABSTRACT
We study the linear polarization from the accretion disk around a class of static traversable wormholes. Applying the simplified model of a magnetized fluid ring orbiting in the equatorial plane, we search for characteristic signatures, which could distinguish wormhole from black hole spacetimes by their polarization properties. For the purpose we analyze the direct polarized images for different inclination angles, the strongly lensed indirect images, and the polarized radiation which reaches the asymptotic observer through the wormhole throat, and compare to the Schwarzschild black hole. For small inclination angles the two types of compact objects lead to a very similar polarization pattern of the direct images. More significant distinctions are observed for the strongly lensed indirect images, where the polarization intensity in the wormhole spacetimes can grow up to an order of magnitude compared to the Schwarzschild black hole. Detecting radiation from the region across the wormhole throat leads to the formation of an additional structure of ring images with distinct polarization properties. The twist of the polarization vector around the ring is less pronounced, thus modifying the polarization pattern, and the polarization intensity can increase with an order of magnitude compared to the radiation from our Universe.Thus, while it could be difficult to distinguish wormhole spacetimes by their direct polarized images, the strongly lensed images and the polarization of the radiation through the wormhole throat provide characteristic signatures which can serve as probes for horizonless objects.


journals.aps.org...



posted on Nov, 15 2022 @ 08:55 PM
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And yet, some people just remote sense and connect without a problem, just saying.




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