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originally posted by: Asmodeus3
originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: quintessentone
I meant it as a problem solving method. Aliens and humans could share compatible views of the universe. The only way we would know that is by comparing our mathematics or problem solving formulas. Language may never be compatible. But if we live in the same universe we may find some commonality in mathematics.
Also, I don't agree with that article. Mathematics is a language of notation with explanations and solutions. It simplifies what we blabber about. Humans talk to much.
In terms of communication I think the best bet is mathematics as it seems to be the Universal language. It's unlikely they understand our languages or us understanding them. But at the same time we are not sure whether they can speak the way we do or even whether they can see and hear the way we do.
originally posted by: quintessentone
originally posted by: Asmodeus3
originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: quintessentone
I meant it as a problem solving method. Aliens and humans could share compatible views of the universe. The only way we would know that is by comparing our mathematics or problem solving formulas. Language may never be compatible. But if we live in the same universe we may find some commonality in mathematics.
Also, I don't agree with that article. Mathematics is a language of notation with explanations and solutions. It simplifies what we blabber about. Humans talk to much.
In terms of communication I think the best bet is mathematics as it seems to be the Universal language. It's unlikely they understand our languages or us understanding them. But at the same time we are not sure whether they can speak the way we do or even whether they can see and hear the way we do.
Our mathematics are numbers and letters and symbols, there is no way ETs will be using the same methodology.
originally posted by: Phantom423
originally posted by: quintessentone
originally posted by: Asmodeus3
originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: quintessentone
I meant it as a problem solving method. Aliens and humans could share compatible views of the universe. The only way we would know that is by comparing our mathematics or problem solving formulas. Language may never be compatible. But if we live in the same universe we may find some commonality in mathematics.
Also, I don't agree with that article. Mathematics is a language of notation with explanations and solutions. It simplifies what we blabber about. Humans talk to much.
In terms of communication I think the best bet is mathematics as it seems to be the Universal language. It's unlikely they understand our languages or us understanding them. But at the same time we are not sure whether they can speak the way we do or even whether they can see and hear the way we do.
Our mathematics are numbers and letters and symbols, there is no way ETs will be using the same methodology.
I don't think that's true. The Fibonacci sequence is probably universal. Even if our symbols were different, the idea could be communicated multiple ways.
originally posted by: quintessentone
originally posted by: Asmodeus3
originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: quintessentone
I meant it as a problem solving method. Aliens and humans could share compatible views of the universe. The only way we would know that is by comparing our mathematics or problem solving formulas. Language may never be compatible. But if we live in the same universe we may find some commonality in mathematics.
Also, I don't agree with that article. Mathematics is a language of notation with explanations and solutions. It simplifies what we blabber about. Humans talk to much.
In terms of communication I think the best bet is mathematics as it seems to be the Universal language. It's unlikely they understand our languages or us understanding them. But at the same time we are not sure whether they can speak the way we do or even whether they can see and hear the way we do.
Our mathematics are numbers and letters and symbols, there is no way ETs will be using the same methodology.
originally posted by: Asmodeus3
originally posted by: quintessentone
originally posted by: Asmodeus3
originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: quintessentone
I meant it as a problem solving method. Aliens and humans could share compatible views of the universe. The only way we would know that is by comparing our mathematics or problem solving formulas. Language may never be compatible. But if we live in the same universe we may find some commonality in mathematics.
Also, I don't agree with that article. Mathematics is a language of notation with explanations and solutions. It simplifies what we blabber about. Humans talk to much.
In terms of communication I think the best bet is mathematics as it seems to be the Universal language. It's unlikely they understand our languages or us understanding them. But at the same time we are not sure whether they can speak the way we do or even whether they can see and hear the way we do.
Our mathematics are numbers and letters and symbols, there is no way ETs will be using the same methodology.
The way we write numbers and letters will be different, however there can be deciphered easily. We will be describing the same sequence for example using different symbols.
originally posted by: 20Eyes1974
a reply to: Gothmog
The results :
We may very well be alone in the universe.
They are here, right under our feet and above our heads. In space time and higher dimensions.
originally posted by: Direne
a reply to: Asmodeus3
It's a childish game, but let's play...
The limitations of mathematics
The Flaw in Mathematics: Mistakes made in Infinite Set Theory over a Century Ago
"The unsuccessful attempts at a unified theory of physics may be due to the underlying mathematics. Certain conclusions about imperfections in the real small world of quantum mechanics, like the Heisenberg Principle, may instead be pointing to an imperfection in the underlying mathematics."
The Delusions of Cosmology
"The belief that the universe is made of math and that the role of physicists is to reveal its 'secret code' is a pervasive strand of thought in modern science that is indistinguishable from faith."
Faith. An interesting feeling, yet totally useless to understand the Universe.
The prominent and still-mysterious Wow! Signal, which briefly blared in a radio telescope the night of Aug. 15, 1977, may have come from a sun-like star located 1,800 light-years away in the constellation Sagittarius
Now, however, amateur astronomer Alberto Caballero has suggested that the source of the broadcast could be an Earth-like planet.
However, Professor Antonio Paris, of St Petersburg College, has now discovered the explanation: A pair of comets. The work was published in the Journal of the Washington Academy of Sciences.
originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: Asmodeus3
I still think the problem is information transfer. We're not communicating with anyone and no one is communicating with us without some new way to transfer information at a speed that makes sense in our lifetime spans. That includes the lifetime spans of aliens too. As I mentioned previously, we've sent I Love Lucy out all over the universe. It's still out there although the signal has probably dissipated to practically nothing by now. We should be discussing ways to transfer information that are more efficient than what we are doing now. The speed of light is a barrier, not a limit. We need to think more creatively about information transfer.
CONCLUSION
In this paper, we have presented a critical assessment regarding the possibility, from the point of view of the basic physical principles of relativity and causality, of faster-than-c signaling. Our analysis is motivated by some recent theoretical predictions of “superluminal” photon propagation [2, 3, 14]. We have shown that such effects are kinematically compatible with special relativity, because the latter requires only the existence of an invariant speed, not necessarily a maximum one. Also, they do not lead to causal paradoxes, which can arise only from tachyons whose speed has no fixed value in a given reference frame. Perhaps surprisingly, it is the soft breaking of Lorentz invariance, which always occurs in these effects, that fixes the value of the speed of the faster-than-c photons in a specific frame and thus saves causality. Such a breaking is, however, due to the choice of a vacuum state and does not extend to the invariance group of the fundamental physical laws, which still remains the usual C = c Lorentz group.
originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: Asmodeus3
General and special relativity do not forbid faster than light travel. Light travels at the same speed for all observers. However, to increase the velocity of a sub c particle to faster than light speed would take an infinite amount of energy. And that's the problem - or not. Faster than light travel also creates negative energy, also a problem. We can't do any of this or even imagine how to do it. But perhaps someone else out there has conquered that beast.
This impossibility only applies locally. Wormholes, if they exist, can exceed the speed of light theoretically and bend space-time such that distances become much shorter.
As regards the transfer of information, perhaps a type of wormhole could act as a transfer agent.
There's an interesting paper focusing on superluminal light. Unfortunately, it's behind a paywall, but here's what the conclusion says:
CONCLUSION
In this paper, we have presented a critical assessment regarding the possibility, from the point of view of the basic physical principles of relativity and causality, of faster-than-c signaling. Our analysis is motivated by some recent theoretical predictions of “superluminal” photon propagation [2, 3, 14]. We have shown that such effects are kinematically compatible with special relativity, because the latter requires only the existence of an invariant speed, not necessarily a maximum one. Also, they do not lead to causal paradoxes, which can arise only from tachyons whose speed has no fixed value in a given reference frame. Perhaps surprisingly, it is the soft breaking of Lorentz invariance, which always occurs in these effects, that fixes the value of the speed of the faster-than-c photons in a specific frame and thus saves causality. Such a breaking is, however, due to the choice of a vacuum state and does not extend to the invariance group of the fundamental physical laws, which still remains the usual C = c Lorentz group.
Faster-than-c Signals, Special Relativity, and Causality
Stefano Liberati
Department of Physics, Gravitation Theory Group, University of Maryland, College Park, Maryland 20742-4111
E-mail: [email protected]
URL: www2.physics.umd.edu...˜liberati
I can send you a PDF if you like.
originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: Asmodeus3
All that you said is true. But my point was that the problem of communication with aliens is information transfer and how it could be done. I'm not sure whether our receivers could even detect a signal that was generated by an instrument that utilized a wormhole setup.
Just trying to think out of the box here. Our lack of technology to accomplish something like that probably says, that at least right now, it can't be done.
originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: Asmodeus3
No, I have not come across his work. I'll take a look at his papers.
ABSTRACT
We study the linear polarization from the accretion disk around a class of static traversable wormholes. Applying the simplified model of a magnetized fluid ring orbiting in the equatorial plane, we search for characteristic signatures, which could distinguish wormhole from black hole spacetimes by their polarization properties. For the purpose we analyze the direct polarized images for different inclination angles, the strongly lensed indirect images, and the polarized radiation which reaches the asymptotic observer through the wormhole throat, and compare to the Schwarzschild black hole. For small inclination angles the two types of compact objects lead to a very similar polarization pattern of the direct images. More significant distinctions are observed for the strongly lensed indirect images, where the polarization intensity in the wormhole spacetimes can grow up to an order of magnitude compared to the Schwarzschild black hole. Detecting radiation from the region across the wormhole throat leads to the formation of an additional structure of ring images with distinct polarization properties. The twist of the polarization vector around the ring is less pronounced, thus modifying the polarization pattern, and the polarization intensity can increase with an order of magnitude compared to the radiation from our Universe.Thus, while it could be difficult to distinguish wormhole spacetimes by their direct polarized images, the strongly lensed images and the polarization of the radiation through the wormhole throat provide characteristic signatures which can serve as probes for horizonless objects.