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originally posted by: randomuser
originally posted by: ntech
Hey guys. This "man" of verse 5 and 6 is not an angel. It's the Lord actually.
This was an angel. It couldn't have been the "son of man" because he said Michael the Archangel had to help him fight against the demon Prince of Persia.
Michael is one of Jesus Christ's names. One he had before he came to earth.
That Jesus is the archangel we are informed in 1 Thessalonians 4:16:
"Because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet."
The Lord, Jesus Christ, descends with an archangel's voice. There is only one archangel ever mentioned in the Bible. Arch means chief, or head angel:
Jesus as the chief of God's angels is also mentioned in Revelation 12:7 waging war against Satan in heaven:
"And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled..."-Revelation 12:7.
The angel referred to must have been of very high rank and worked with Michael (Jesus) as well as Gabriel. We see this angel also telling Gabriel to give Daniel the understanding of a vision in Daniel 8:15, 16:
"While I, Daniel, was watching the vision and seeking to understand it, suddenly I saw standing in front of me someone who appeared to be a man. 16 Then I heard the voice of a man in the midst of the Uʹlai, and he called out: “Gaʹbri·el, make that one understand what he saw.”-Daniel 8:15, 16.
originally posted by: chr0naut
originally posted by: randomuser
originally posted by: ntech
Hey guys. This "man" of verse 5 and 6 is not an angel. It's the Lord actually.
This was an angel. It couldn't have been the "son of man" because he said Michael the Archangel had to help him fight against the demon Prince of Persia.
Michael is one of Jesus Christ's names. One he had before he came to earth.
That Jesus is the archangel we are informed in 1 Thessalonians 4:16:
"Because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet."
The Lord, Jesus Christ, descends with an archangel's voice. There is only one archangel ever mentioned in the Bible. Arch means chief, or head angel:
Jesus as the chief of God's angels is also mentioned in Revelation 12:7 waging war against Satan in heaven:
"And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled..."-Revelation 12:7.
The angel referred to must have been of very high rank and worked with Michael (Jesus) as well as Gabriel. We see this angel also telling Gabriel to give Daniel the understanding of a vision in Daniel 8:15, 16:
"While I, Daniel, was watching the vision and seeking to understand it, suddenly I saw standing in front of me someone who appeared to be a man. 16 Then I heard the voice of a man in the midst of the Uʹlai, and he called out: “Gaʹbri·el, make that one understand what he saw.”-Daniel 8:15, 16.
If Jesus was an archangel, then he wasn't God, but just a creation, and therefore has no power to forgive us for our sins against God.
That passage may also be interpreted that Jesus command was relayed by the archangel, and by by a trumpet signal. In battle, this is normally how orders are relayed down the ranks to the troops.
originally posted by: Zenchuck
a reply to: randomuser
What are your thoughts on the trinity? I have never heard Jesus and Michael are the same person. I reject that.
An interesting conjecture connecting Daniel to the birth of Christ is that the wise men from the east who came bearing gifts for Christ at his birth (we've all seen the Christmas play), were students trained to look for signs in the heavens through the educational institution established be Daniel 500 years earlier. Daniel had made provision for both recognizing and gifting the coming savior of the world.
This post also made me think about the construction of the new Jerusalem described by John. All of the 12 stones listed by John are heterogeneous and anisotropic (apparently). Something that I would be keen to test.
originally posted by: Albert999
Nice post but not proof I'm afraid. If you had proof of the divine, you would be very famous.
ETA I know this was a pretty ignorant thing to say, but I genuinely don't mean to upset anyone by it. 🙏🏻
originally posted by: quintessentone
a reply to: randomuser
I agree that some of Jesus' teachings are for the betterment of humanity, I can't agree that it is 'divine' word. Jesus walked upon the Earth as a human man and as such his experiences and teachings would be mortal. The Bible to me is suspect because so many other gospels were not included, so again, we have those in power keeping the majority of people in the dark.
originally posted by: ToneDeaf
originally posted by: randomuser
There are numerous ways to show that the words found in
God's word known collectively to us as the Bible
Which bible version is that ?
originally posted by: MetalChickAmy
originally posted by: Zenchuck
a reply to: randomuser
What are your thoughts on the trinity? I have never heard Jesus and Michael are the same person. I reject that.
JW's are nothing more than literature peddlers.
originally posted by: randomuser
originally posted by: chr0naut
originally posted by: randomuser
originally posted by: ntech
Hey guys. This "man" of verse 5 and 6 is not an angel. It's the Lord actually.
This was an angel. It couldn't have been the "son of man" because he said Michael the Archangel had to help him fight against the demon Prince of Persia.
Michael is one of Jesus Christ's names. One he had before he came to earth.
That Jesus is the archangel we are informed in 1 Thessalonians 4:16:
"Because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet."
The Lord, Jesus Christ, descends with an archangel's voice. There is only one archangel ever mentioned in the Bible. Arch means chief, or head angel:
Jesus as the chief of God's angels is also mentioned in Revelation 12:7 waging war against Satan in heaven:
"And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled..."-Revelation 12:7.
The angel referred to must have been of very high rank and worked with Michael (Jesus) as well as Gabriel. We see this angel also telling Gabriel to give Daniel the understanding of a vision in Daniel 8:15, 16:
"While I, Daniel, was watching the vision and seeking to understand it, suddenly I saw standing in front of me someone who appeared to be a man. 16 Then I heard the voice of a man in the midst of the Uʹlai, and he called out: “Gaʹbri·el, make that one understand what he saw.”-Daniel 8:15, 16.
If Jesus was an archangel, then he wasn't God, but just a creation, and therefore has no power to forgive us for our sins against God.
That passage may also be interpreted that Jesus command was relayed by the archangel, and by by a trumpet signal. In battle, this is normally how orders are relayed down the ranks to the troops.
Begotten is someone who has been begat, someone begat is created:
“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life."-John 3:16.
Jesus is the "only-begotten" of God. Have you ever wondered what that means? It is really quite simple in its truth. Jesus was the very first and only direct creation by God. Jesus was the first production of Jehovah:
"Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago.."-Proverbs 8:22.
Here we see Jesus speaking as wisdom personified. He tells us that he was the very first of God's achievements, he was produced as the beginning of Jehovah's ways of long ago. This coincides with what Colossians 1:15, 16 state:
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth."
So, yes, Jesus is a begotten son of God, and not only begotten, but only-begotten. The very first, the earliest of his achievements, the firstborn of all creation.
Jesus was given all authority in heaven and on earth, and with that authority which his Father bestowed on him was the power to forgive sin:
"And look! they were bringing him a paralyzed man lying on a stretcher. On seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic: “Take courage, child! Your sins are forgiven.” Now certain scribes said to themselves: “This fellow is blaspheming.” Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said: “Why are you thinking wicked things in your hearts? For instance, which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? However, in order for you to know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins—” then he said to the paralytic: “Get up, pick up your stretcher, and go to your home.” And he got up and went to his home. When the crowds saw this, they were struck with fear, and they glorified God, who gave such authority to men."-Matthew 9:2-8
originally posted by: quintessentone
a reply to: chr0naut
God gave us a mortal man named Jesus. Jesus aspired to teach God's words so following God's plan Jesus was God's servant or right hand, not at all equal. Just a man taking on the impossible mission of enlightening the masses and trying help us change for the better and they killed him for it.
originally posted by: randomuser
a reply to: chr0naut
Jesus was begotten which is produced, as you said "brought into existence", that is he was created. Jehovah was never brought into existence. He always has been and always will be. When human parents have children a new human life is created, brought into existence. God created all things through Jesus Christ. He was the first and only direct creation by Jehovah God. His only-begotten. All other things were created through him and for him according to the scripture in Colossians 1:15-16 we both quoted.
The Pharisees wrongly condemned Jesus (they didn't have the truth and didn't conclude logically on anything they condemned Jesus in). As I quoted above he asked them why they say he blasphemed for claiming to be God's son, and then he even used logic from their own Hebrew scriptures:
"The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?"-John 10:33-36.
Jesus reasoned with them from Psalms 82:6 where the judges of Israel were called "gods" by Jehovah God. Then asked them if Jehovah God called the judges of Israel "gods" then why are they accusing him of blasphemy for saying he was "God's Son."
A logic they could not refute.
There are 3 key things here to understand Jesus is telling the truth about whom he is, he really is the Son of God. He is not God.
1. God cannot die:
"Are you not from everlasting, O Jehovah?
O my God, my Holy One, you do not die."
-Habakkuk 1:12.
Jesus died for our sins. 2 Corinthians 5:14.
2. Jehovah cannot learn from anyone, much less obedience:
"For 'who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him?'"-1 Corinthians 2:16.
Jesus learned obedience through the things he suffered while on earth:
"Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered."-Hebrews 5:8.
In fact the night before he was to be put to death he clearly showed he had a distinct mind from his Father. He was praying to his God and Father Jehovah and said if there was any way for the cup he was to bear to be taken away for it to be done. But then he submitted humbly to his Father's will:
“My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will.”-Matthew 26:39.
3. Jehovah God cannot be tempted by anything or anyone.
"When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone."-James 1:13.
Satan the Devil tempted Jesus Christ:
"Then Jesus was led by the spirit up into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil."-Matthew 4:1.
One of the temptations was that Satan would make Jesus Christ the ruler over the world if he would bow down and do an act of worship to him.
The idea that Satan could tempt God with something that was already his and that God would be tempted to worship Satan is beyond ridiculous.
originally posted by: quintessentone
a reply to: chr0naut
Jesus never said "I am God" he claimed equality, spiritual equality in my perception.
originally posted by: chr0naut
originally posted by: quintessentone
a reply to: chr0naut
Jesus never said "I am God" he claimed equality, spiritual equality in my perception.
"Before Moses was, I AM".
The Pharisees didn't miss what Jesus was saying, there.
originally posted by: chr0naut
originally posted by: quintessentone
a reply to: chr0naut
Jesus never said "I am God" he claimed equality, spiritual equality in my perception.
"Before Moses was, I AM".
The Pharisees didn't miss what Jesus was saying, there.
originally posted by: randomuser
originally posted by: Albert999
Nice post but not proof I'm afraid. If you had proof of the divine, you would be very famous.
ETA I know this was a pretty ignorant thing to say, but I genuinely don't mean to upset anyone by it. 🙏🏻
I know that on the surface level it may not sound like a convincing or impressive proof. But if you really took the time to think about it you would come to realize how utterly amazing it is that, not in just this prophecy given to Daniel, but in the entire 66 books of the Bible, written by over 40 different men over a time span of 1,600 years, nothing contradicts itself. That is a supernatural feat. No ordinary work of human knowledge could achieve such a thing.
There are supposed contradictions in the Bible. But if you look at them closely you see that every one of them can be explained. The critics look at it with a skeptical eye and try to punch holes into everything they read. The believer looks at it with an eye of faith, and when a supposed contradiction comes up assumes there must be an explanation. The former don't look hard enough for an explanation. The latter find satisfying answers as to why supposed contradictions exist.
This post could turn into a thread in itself explaining this in its entirety. Perhaps in a future thread I may take the time to dig into some of this.