Existence is the default status of reality and the link to God.

First before anything else, let us you and I and all humans concur that we exist, otherwise we would not be here at all in this thread, or anywhere else.

Now, when we ask ourselves from what we came from, the answer is in-evitably from another thing in existence - and so on and on and on and on . . .

At this point we have to stop going further asking the same question, from what we came, because we will surely die sooner than later - so end of thread?

But before we die, we must need conclude that God exists without deriving His existence from another something - otherwise He is not God but another something: that means that we are again into the otherwise un-ending question of from what does anything come.

How, does that line of reasoning prove the existence of God?

It #ing doesn't.

God is a non-existent fictional construct.

The original motive for this concept's creation appears to be theft and deception.

It worked pretty well. Here we are hundreds of years later and folk like you are still buying that complete nonsense.

originally posted by: Pachomius
How, does that line of reasoning prove the existence of God?

Remove people from the equation and god dissappears too.

I'll leave the logic of that in your hands.

a reply to: Pachomius

The Link to God is mathematics .

Mathematics is the language God used to devise the Universe and everything in it .

That is it that is all we know about God as far as I'm concerned , the Bible is a work of Fiction and Fear used for control and has done nothing but twist society into insane hatreds and phobias .

God is not what people think , God is beyond .

originally posted by: angus1745
God is a non-existent fictional construct.

A "fictional construct" absolutely exists otherwise there is no construct at all. Eg: oxymoron.

Perhaps you percieve god as a man in a cloud with a booming voice, rather than the magic all around us. "God" is an individual perception, not a joint reality. Acceptance is the key.

The original motive for this concept's creation appears to be theft and deception.

No. The power of control over others using fear and ignorance came first me thinks.

The theft and deception came later as a benefit and a necessity to continue the belief system.

originally posted by: asabuvsobelow
a reply to: Pachomius

The Link to God is mathematics .

Mathematics is the language God used to devise the Universe and everything in it .

God = Z + Z2 + C

originally posted by: angus1745
It #ing doesn't.

God is a non-existent fictional construct.

The original motive for this concept's creation appears to be theft and deception.

It worked pretty well. Here we are hundreds of years later and folk like you are still buying that complete nonsense.

Silly human what do you know?

originally posted by: nerbot

Remove people from the equation and god dissappears too.

I'll leave the logic of that in your hands.

Typical "logic" from a temporal brain that is blinding the atemporal soul that inhabits it

originally posted by: Pachomius

How, does that line of reasoning prove the existence of God?

1) Something cannot come from nothing.
2)Therefore there was never nothing.
3)That something that always existed is God.

Coming into existence does not apply for a Being that always existed. God never was born or created because God always existed. There's no other way around it. That "something" which always existed, and is the source of all things, is rightfully called the Dad of the universe.

a reply to: angus1745

The original motive of the word "God" was to put a label/word onto a conceptual idea. Nothing more than that in my opinion. Religion is what took that label/word and changed the meaning behind it to control people.

You have mistaken the stolen imagery with the original. Spirituality came before religion, and no they are not the same thing.

a reply to: angus1745

Well i guess black holes are fictional constructs too then?

Here, let me reconstruct some physics for you.

All the information contained within objects that fall into a black hole exists within the black hole.

In the black hole, space time ends up looping around on itself and you get a singularity. This singularity has no dimensions. Its a zero point. Not 3 dimensions, not two dimensions, not one dimension, but zero dimension.

Whatever exists at that zero point takes up all of the space available to it. Which is no space. Yet it exists in all the space available to it. Whatever exists at that space is also at rest. As in, no movement, as there is no space to move or vibrate, it is at rest.

Physics: energy at rest is said to take up all the space available to it. Energy at rest that takes up all the space available to it is said to be an infinite amount of energy.

Now. If you think that it was possible for an extremeophile creature, that had some form of consciousness was able to make it to a black hole, then you can say that consciousness. That conscious energy is at rest, exists in all of space time, and is an infinite amount of conscious energy. What can an infinite conscious being do? It could imagine couldn’t it? It could imagine an infinite universe where there are black holes that spawn other infinite universes, which have black holes themselves.

Thats why the universe is infinite.

We think there are like 2 trillion galaxies in the observable universe. The unobservable universe is like x 1000000. Each of those galaxies we think has a supermassive blackhole, where another universe exists, which have black holes existing in them which have more universes.

There is literally another you out there that looks like you, and has said every word you have said your entire life. That’s how infinite the universe is.

Don’t believe in God? Believe in physics then. Lol same deal.

Also, if that infinite consciousness takes up all of space time…. Then what do you think everyone and everything is? Guess who plays all the roles? Guess who you are?

Steve Jobs last words...."Oh wow, oh wow, oh wow".

God is there and has provided his Word as a lamp unto our feet. When you see the world through the lens of the Bible it makes perfect sense. I pray everyone, at some point, hears the Gospel and turns to Jesus.

a reply to: Pachomius

You are very close to understanding principles within the ancient "illuminated" teachings given in the Eleusinian Mysteries, and other rites and processes of the mysteries

I can help you clear a few things up, to help you see. If you like ...

Firstly, what you are describing about existence is referred to by those amongst the initiated as "The primary truth"

The primary truth is:

"The only thing you will ever know for certain in this world, is that you exist
Everything else is up for debate"

This "Primary Truth" is not to be mistaken for Solipsism

It is simply a mechanism for people to be able to define "the source" of creation, in the only true context that it can be related to ones existence, and that is, through the self

Whether it be God, the Earth, the Universe, or any other forms of life, spirituality or existence. The biggest problem people face in coming to terms by which they can put such things in context and understand them, is perspective

You need understand the "self" as the source and means for knowing and creation

The way this differs to Solipsism, is that the initiated do not view those outside of themselves as possibly not existing, by the fact that they themselves are the only knowable truth

They consider them as simply another version of themselves. Outside of self

You seem to understand this, but you have overlooked the significance of a relationship by which the self, can only exist as a mirror to those around them

This is an important consideration within understanding the application of the primary truth

Solipsism only goes half-way, in relating others towards themselves as the only knowable truth. In that it considers the possibility that they may not be real, but not the implications of such a consideration to the self

The reality is, that even though you are correct that there should be a consensus that "we exist", you are assuming that others have the means for understanding such things, in the way that you are understanding

You cannot know this

Therefore it is not only pointless basing conclusions on it. It is pointless to even consider

It is like saying "We like football", without so much as considering the fact, that other you include in your "we" statement, may not even know what football is

But more specifically, they may not care

In fact, they probably do not care. At all

You care. But why should they?

Here in lies the most important secondary consideration, which is often attached to the primary truth

The only things you can ever know for certain in this world, is that you exist
Everything else is up for debate
Personal belief, is not the same as knowing

Within this, you need to understand, or at least appreciate ...

That your are making the mistake of thinking that the question of God matters

Which it doesn't

It does to you. But in the grander scheme of things, it does not matter

It matters to a percentage of humans. But to the majority of life in general, it does not

The distinction lays in the definition

Creation exists. We can agree on this. We see it every day

Creation, for creation exists. We understand the processes and layers of a macrocosm/microcosm existence. Because we see this every day too

But what is God? And why does it even matter, if you know creation itself?

Where, when and how, did a defining ultimatum, of things unknown ... Come in to consideration, within that which we do know?

The truth is, that beyond a likely relation to what we do know ... Within self

The speculated definition of things such as "God", simply do not matter

We are taught to believe in creation, because we are the process of that creation

We need not define what it is that creates, in order to be that thing

We do not need honour the creator, in order to honour the creation

We need not even need define what self is, in order to know it

Let God be, as God is

It does not need be owned or defined, to be whatever it is

We can already own and define such concepts as a collective by our very existence

What you are basically saying is

That if we know ourselves. We know God

And that, fundamentally, is truth

Because to know self, is the only possible connection we can ever have to something like God. Regardless of whether or not such things are to be considered to exist

If God does exist. I am God
As indeed, you must also be
As we all must be

The leaf is the tree
The tree is the leaf

The roots and seed of the tree are to the leaves
As the leaves are to the roots and seed

It is really very simple

The thing which makes me most sad about this world, is that the people who seek to find, know and understand "God" the most, are actually those as far from understanding such things, as anyone on Earth

If you look for God, you will never find it

The key is to stop searching

You already know these things. They are within you. They are the deepest seeds and roots of your very creation

So what are you really looking for?

This is the main reason that people who do not need concepts such as "God" get so annoyed with people pushing at them to show them (or try convert them to) a concept such as "God"

They do no need God. Because they understand that they are a seed of the source of creation

They have already evolved far beyond the need for such considerations. They understand creation, within their own being

So to try push it on them, is like trying to force people to take a step backwards ...

For no other reason than "you" yourself, do not yet understand, what they understand

While you are in this world, there are things such as this which simply cannot be known

So there is no point wasting your time considering such things, when there is so much in this world which can be known, that desperately needs your consideration more

The answer to the question is irrelevant

Because the question itself, is the answer

The ability to consider such things, is the very essence of the God you seek

originally posted by: angus1745
It #ing doesn't.

God is a non-existent fictional construct.

The original motive for this concept's creation appears to be theft and deception.

It worked pretty well. Here we are hundreds of years later and folk like you are still buying that complete nonsense.

Well, that's a pretty gratuitous declaration, so I will also gratuitously declare that you are not doing genuine rational thinking.

I'll give you an example, as a parable:

I sat with two Christian men at the park across from my house once, while they tried preaching God, Jesus and the Bible to me

As they spoke and I listened, a flock of thousands of little finches flew above our heads in a swarm

A morphing cloud of beautiful little tweeting birds, dancing above our heads, as if they were putting on a show just for us

I was transfixed for a moment by how beautiful it was

The Christian men however, did not even notice. They just kept on talking about the Bible, like it was more amazing than what was happening above their heads

It was not until I stopped them talking and pointed up at the loud (unmissable) cloud of birds performing above our heads, that they took a second to look up at the birds

But when I say "second", I mean a literal second

They looked up for no longer than one second, then resumed talking about the Bible

It was as if they thought the amazing thing happening above our heads, was not even worth looking at

I was shocked

I was being instructed in the mysteries at the time, and something outside of my own consciousness spoke to me in that moment. Telling me to take notice

I told me what I was witnessing, is why they would not align with, appear to, or even speak with any of the religious elements in this world

Not because they did not want to. But because there was no point

To emphasise their point, they told me to look up again

I looked up, as the birds flew away and a white orb of light appeared in the sky above us

No more than a couple hundred feet above us in the air. In the bright daylight of the afternoon. Clear as day

An orb of white light, so bright, that it could be seen in daylight. With wisps of light curling, winding, unfurling, and fluttering off and around it. Again, it was as if it were dancing and performing just for us

I was amazed

So too were half of Darwin city

Reports from all over Darwin were sent in to the local newspaper, who quickly posted about the phenomena on their Facebook page, asking if anyone had seen it

Hundreds of people, from all over the city posted saying that they saw it too. All with their own theories about what it was

But I do not think that any of them saw it as clearly as we did

They all saw the glowing white orb of light, with licking wisps of light in the sky all around it, as it flew from the ocean, over the city towards where we are sitting

But it had stopped directly above my house, next to the park. So that we had to look up at it above our heads. And it got bigger, brighter and clearer as it sat there. Almost as if it descended down above my house, in order for us to get a better look at it

Everyone was amazed

Except for the two Christian men. Who appeared to witness nothing

Once again, they only looked up at it for a maximum of one or two seconds …

Before they looked back down and started talking about the Bible again

I was no longer in shock. I felt confused, frustrated and sad

How could they see something like that and not care?

I suddenly understood something very profound about them

Not only about them, but about Christianity. And about religion as a whole

Something that made me feel sad enough, I could have cried

Again something spoke to me from outside of my own consciousness

The same thing which had told me to look up, because the orb of pure glistening light was coming

The same thing which likely created it and sent it

It asked me if I understood now, why there was no point speaking with the Churches

And I did

The realisation was horrific and sad. But I understood it perfectly

Even if God themselves were to ascend from the sky. No religion would ever accept them

They did not care to know about or experience the possibilities of what things like “God” are, or could be

They only cared in knowing their own certainty on such things

And no truth, could ever possibly be good enough for all of them

Therefore, it could never be for them …

And it could never be given to them

So to try teach them, was pointless

They had no eyes to see, so they could not see
They had no ears to hear, so they could not hear

In time, I would be asked to consider what it was I thought I saw in the sky

“Was it God you saw? Or an angel? A trick of light? An orb? Or U.F.O?”

I considered the question, then answered honestly, that I do not care

Even if I were to consider the possibilities of the many things it “could” have been for the rest of my life, to the point where I found myself certain in my belief, of what it was that I saw …

I could not know …

No matter the degree of my certainty. Or the evidence I found to support it. It would only ever be a personal belief

It was, and is, impossible for me to know

So why waste time trying to understand it? It was what it was

Awesome and beautiful

But what it was? I do not care

This, I was told, is the correct answer

This is the reason that someone like myself was forced into undertaking the mysteries, when I would not have ever undertaken the rites and processes willingly, given the choice …

While billions of others, who desperately want, and seek to be a part of such rites and processes, are deemed not suitable

Because I do not seek to know the unknowable

I do not care, because to me,

“I am, who I am”
“It is, what it is”

I do not need any more than this

Reading through the hundreds of comments on the Facebook post relating to the strange light seen in the sky, I was surprised to see a post from/by one of the two Christian men, named Tim, who had witnessed (or, some would say, failed to witness) the light in the sky with me, as we sat across the park

His comment said, “I saw it too. It was an Angel”

Yet, when it was there, he had no time for it, or interest in looking at it. Because he was more concerned in talking about the Bible

This made me realise, that within personal belief and determination of things unknown, the beauty of possibility becomes lost

That the reason the Christian men only took one second to regard the amazing things happening in the sky, is because they had already determined in their mind, exactly what such things were

And in that determination, a thing like the Bible which gave them such belief was more important

They were blinded by their own certainty, in themselves already being able to see

When the reality was, they had no eyes with which to see

Because I did no care as to what it was, it was free to be any of the endless possibilities of what it could be, in this world

But more so, it was amazing, and wonderful, and beautiful, because it was free to be what it is. Whatever that may be

Determined will, can be the death of possibility

And for God to be, as God is. Whatever that may be …

It can never be, as any who think they know God, believe it to be

It must be all possibility

And such things can never be known, by those who seek to know it …

Or care what it is

originally posted by: nerbot

originally posted by: Pachomius
How, does that line of reasoning prove the existence of God?

Remove people from the equation and god dissappears too.

I'll leave the logic of that in your hands.

Of course, and ATS disappears also.

originally posted by: asabuvsobelow
a reply to: Pachomius

The Link to God is mathematics .

Mathematics is the language God used to devise the Universe and everything in it .

That is it that is all we know about God as far as I'm concerned , the Bible is a work of Fiction and Fear used for control and has done nothing but twist society into insane hatreds and phobias .

God is not what people think , God is beyond .

Here is how I divide the ways man comes to the existence of God:

1. By reason
2. By revelation as in the Bible
3. By meditation

I am dealing with God as I know how, by reason.

In regard to your observation that the Bible "has done nothing but twist society into insane hatreds and phobias," that is not completely true, the big picture is that it has done more good to human society and man's life, consider how civilization has improved in Europe owing to the teachings in the Bible, for example, the abolition of slavery, the equality between men and women, the rise of democracy - as opposed to low civilization in lands where the Bible is not known and observed.

Thanks, dear Compendium, for your most edifying parable:

"I'll give you an example, as a parable: I sat with two Christian men at the park across from my house once, while they tried preaching God, Jesus and the Bible to me . . . " -Compendium

originally posted by: Compendium
I'll give you an example, as a parable:

[ . . . . ]


And such things (God?) can never be known, by those who seek to know it …

Or care what it is

Dear Compendium, there is really no need to deliver a most lengthy parable, just to tell me that you don't think God exists - unless you have this method that with plenty of words you can dazzle people into accepting your conviction - for there are sharp folks who can see the vacuity of your interminable words.


Suppose you and I just start with the first line of my exposition in the OP, to work together as to revise it so that we concur on its new meaning, whether it be in favor of God existing or not.

"First before anything else, let us you and I and all humans concur that we exist, otherwise we would not be here at all in this thread, or anywhere else."



The OP
First before anything else, let us you and I and all humans concur that we exist, otherwise we would not be here at all in this thread, or anywhere else.

Now, when we ask ourselves from what we came from, the answer is in-evitably from another thing in existence - and so on and on and on and on . . .

At this point we have to stop going further asking the same question, from what we came, because we will surely die sooner than later - so end of thread?

But before we die, we must need conclude that God exists without deriving His existence from another something - otherwise He is not God but another something: that means that we are again into the otherwise un-ending question of from what does anything come.

How, does that line of reasoning prove the existence of God?

Remove conscious observers from the equation and existence ceases to exist.

There is no way to prove this true or false from inside the box, without pulsing the annihilation of all reality.

Humans are quite a long way from exercising that level of technology, but if it is not impossible, then testing the consistency of the Universe in it's entirety may be possible, up to and including existence itself.

a reply to: Archivalist

Yes, truth seekers of the past had the same realization. That they didn't have the tools to realize the absolute truth with mind. So they ventured inward using meditation techniques to determine if they could witness a greater truth beyond the limitations of mind.

When we read Genesis. That Adam is made in the image of God. We can deduce from that scripture that Adam, made from God stuff, is not restricted by the confines of any box. Consider "Adam" might be symbolic for the pure awareness at the seat of our being. Whereas Eve could be symbolic for our material essence. With the serpent being our thinking ego-mind.

If that be true, we can witness the truth (unmanifested) with our pure awareness (unmanifested) but not the truth (unmanifested) with our mind (manifested).