Older residents of the eastern Ukraine reluctant to hit the road

a reply to: Grimpachi

You

their stories on video,

You mean YouTube propaganda to fill the vacuum left by Russia not being committed to any serious investigation and placing no real effort in documenting claims you cannot substantiate. While real efforts and reports documented by third parties making a serious investigation of interviewing real people, documenting evidence in areas Russia abounded. Areas Russia supposedly left voluntarily? Areas that Russia could have done actual investigations.

a reply to: neutronflux

Look, if you are not even going to watch the videos of the people standing in the rubble of their lives telling journalists what they have experienced before trying to crap all over them just come out and say so. There is no reason for us to waste each other's time with verbal one-upmanship.

a reply to: Grimpachi

That’s the problem though.

The Rubble of the Ukrainian is caused by the larger supply of ordnance available to the Russian army and their mass shelling and bombing of cities.


With at a minimum Putin breaking character you cast him in from abandoning civilians in areas Russia gained control of. Offering no protection. Meaning at a best case he is a liar. With documented cases of Russian war crimes…. Showing he is a hypocrite.

How pro-Russian media corroborates key details of atrocities in Ukraine
Descriptions of searches for documents and tattoos match multiple accounts by Ukrainians

Lying dead
The search for documents and tattoos matches multiple accounts by Ukrainians. A Kyiv sommelier, Vladislav Kozlovsky, joined family in Bucha after the war began. He has described surviving an incident that left a group of men lying dead outside a building, some with their hands bound behind their backs, a scene captured in now-famous photographs by Vadim Ghirda of the Associated Press.

Kozlovsky told Belsat Vot Tak, a Russian-language television service funded by Poland, that Russian forces had found him among a group of people sheltering in a bunker. They separated men from women and children and made them kneel, he recalled. “They knew some of the people, checked the documents,” Kozlovsky said. “They also checked tattoos.”

If someone was found with documents indicating military service or with a tattoo of Ukraine’s national coat of arms, the trident, “they were immediately shot”, he said.

www.irishtimes.com...

Intentionally killing non-combatants is a war crime. Needless to say, summary executions are also illegal, irrespective of what tattoos the victim may have.

WARNING GRAPHIC Photos from Bucha, Ukraine show civilians dead in the street after Russia withdraws - WARNING GRAPHIC

a reply to: putnam6

The Turks have invaded Iraq, They say the are there to get rid of the Kurds, Who they say are terrorists. I expect that is the fighting.

a reply to: neutronflux

You kept going. Sigh

Despite all your claims of why you didn't watch the videos IMO, there are only two real underlying reasons why someone wouldn't watch after I presented it to answer such a slew of questions.

One is you don't see it worth your time. In which case I can understand because I have felt the same about videos and gish gallop posts. However, for those people I don't feel like wasting my time on them either because we have no way to even debate the subject because our base of knowledge is too different.
Since neither of us wants to waste time let's not do so with useless verbal sparing.

Two is you are afraid there is something you would see and hear in those videos that would challenge or break your entire narrative. Something you couldn't flippantly deny off hand. Also fine but I am not a subtle person or trained in dealing with people's fears.

a reply to: Grimpachi

Think about this dude. I don’t have to make any claims regarding what the Ukrainians did or didn’t do.

Your blaming the Nazi boogeyman on the mass shellings and bombings of cities where the Russians were the only ones with the supplies of ordnance to complete devastation on such a scale for such an extended duration. And war crimes clearly documented by the Russians by eyewitnesses and evidence. I can be open minded. Your the one compromised by blind allegiance.

Your blind yes man mentality in trying to justify all actions by another let them eat cake authoritarian (Putin), or just plane ignore specific evidence, is sicking to people that don’t trust anyone. And warship no person.

a reply to: neutronflux

Russians were the only ones with the supplies of ordnance to complete devastation on such a scale for such an extended duration.

You seem pretty uninformed.

And war crimes clearly documented by the Russians by eyewitnesses and evidence.

I have seen a few interviews claiming that. I have suspicions. I have mostly seen written articles saying people claimed those things.
I am not afraid to have my views changed but I am cautious for good reason as I have already posted a thread where actors for Ukraine were making statements and then they switched rolls being actors in completely different scenarios and personas.

I can be open minded.

Can you? If so prove it and watch the videos of the civilians telling their experiences. If not then don't come at me with the blind man accusations because you are only describing yourself.

originally posted by: putnam6
I completely understand the sentiment, but damn is 59 considered old in Ukraine? not a good sign if people don't have many options. Sounds like they could be a lot of this demographic still in the war zone, just as Russia settles into war mode.

Makes wonder is there a divide as this portrays among Ukrainians? and to what extent?

Regardless, if they are having problems distinguishing what is happening while in-country, no wonder there is a growing divide internationally.

on a side note, I saw where the Iraqi Army and the Kurds are fighting again. You know just like pre Desert Storm.

www.bbc.com...

Horislavets used to speak regularly to her sister, who lives on the other side of the frontline that separates the territory still in Ukrainian control from the "Donetsk People's Republic" - the breakaway region where Russia has forged a separatist movement since 2014.

The phone connection to her sister died about two weeks ago, Horislavets said. But the relationship had already deteriorated after her sister began telling her that she thought the news about Russia's attacks on Ukraine was fake.

Her story is not uncommon in eastern Ukraine, where frontlines have divided families and Russian propaganda has convinced many on the Russian side that the atrocities and attacks reported in international media are fake - that Ukraine is the aggressor.

or is this more western propaganda...

Western Propaganda. The people in DPR still get the internet and even if they get RT, RT still shows what's happening in the war, still shows people dieing.

Kinda like how the media all attacked Trump and ran with the stories that Trump said covid was a hoax (he never did).

a reply to: Grimpachi

You

You seem pretty uninformed.

Because I don’t bow down to Putin.

Better than right out lies Russia pushes.

Again..

At a press conference with German Chancellor Angela Merkel on May 10, 2015, Putin defended the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, claiming that the Soviet Union was being left to face Hitler’s Germany by itself. Russia’s culture minister Vladimir Medinsky called the pact a "colossal achievement of Stalin’s diplomacy."

Then on September 20, 2015, Russia’s ambassador to Venezuela Vladimir Zayemsky claimed that the Soviet Union did not invade Poland on Sept 17, 1939 and that it was in fact Poland, not the USSR, that collaborated with Nazi Germany. He wrote that “the alleged invasion by Soviet forces of Poland in 1939 is a lie” and went on to claim that although Poland was the first victim of WWII, it tried to be “Hitler’s faithful ally” in the period before the War. “It was Warsaw’s pro-fascist stand which made a treaty of cooperation between the USSR, Czechoslovakia and France impossible”, he alleged. The same offensive attempts to rewrite history were presented by Russia’s ambassador to Poland Sergey Andreyev a few days later, speaking on Polish television.

Andreyev claimed that the Soviet invasion on September 17 had not been an act of aggression, but a defensive act to ensure the security of the USSR.

khpg.org...

There is no justification for what Russia is doing in the Ukrainian, there is no excuse for the civilian deaths Russia has caused, there is no excuse for Russian lies, there is no excuse for the Russian propaganda you push, there is no excuse for hero worshiping Putin.

It’s not a matter of anyone being for Ukrainian. It’s a matter of those that sickeningly and unquestionably kiss Putin’s a$$.

a reply to: Grimpachi

Let’s put it this way. I live and vote in a state where the electorally college didn’t go to Biden.


When was the last time Russian civilians got to vote to show their will on who should be president? When do they get to vote again in a Presidential election?

a reply to: neutronflux

Isn't it real convenient how all our sins get absolved every 4 to 8 years?

Just imagine if the last 30 to 40 years was all under one guy. He would be evil incarnate to the rest of the world.

Do you really think the president is in charge? After watching the dementia patient we have in the office. Presidents are lightning rods they are all being guided by powers hidden in the shadows such as corperate execs in oil, gas, and military arms manufacturers.