If Teachers In Texas Have A Book On The Holocaust, They Must Have One With An Opposing Viewpoint

a reply to: frogs453

Are they going to suggest opposing views when they read about slavery?

I’d hate for kids to think slavery was all bad.

a reply to: Bluntone22

Brilliant question.

A consensus needs to be established here.

Two comments:

1.) I think this teacher's comment was designed/intended purposely to ignite the exact kind of conversation we have going on here. Some liberal teacher knows the holocaust will be a lightning rod, so he throws it out there as an example just so people will strenuously object...just like they are. When the voters go crazy and vote the bill down/out, these liberals can go right back to what they wanted to do to begin with...continue their revisionist history propaganda. It's textbook reverse psychology.

2.) In my 58 orbits around the sun I've always known that for every printed material I could ever pick up there is almost certainly a diametrically opposed opinion also in print. So, I'm all for balance. You should be able to choose what you read, whether other people like it or not. That's freedom by definition. A person can choose not to read certain items based on their ideology, but we shouldn't be burning books to prevent others from seeing the material.

ETA - And just FTR, in case it's not abundantly clear, I think the Nazi Holocaust was a tragedy of unimaginable proportion. And, like the saying goes, I might not like what you are saying, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

a reply to: Raggedyman
People have different opinions of genocide? It is understanding in battle you will have two sides and many casualties. However the extermination of any mass group of people is a slightly different situation.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

I agree with you on some points, however I do know my daughters read that book during middle school I think, so it seems to be a fairly common book at school.

Again I do think balance is good, but as I mentioned, genocide, I think is hard to have an opposing opinion without some sort of racism, or anti Semitic reasoning behind it.

Although I'm a bit younger than you, and went to Catholic school, U.S. history was pretty whitewashed as they say. I mean we never learned of the small pox blankets, or were made to believe indigenous people were not unhappy being put on reservations for example. Nor were we really told about slavery, families ripped apart, rape, limbs amputated that sort of thing. I never knew how brutal the crusades were either. However they were sure to show us a film with buckets of aborted fetuses in 6th grade to keep us on the "right" path.

More truthful information was only found if you were curious outside of school.

a reply to: DaCook

Unfortunately we live in a time that is full of ideological dogma's and void of any nuance. There is a war for minds right now, and the frontlines are drawn, people feel the need to hamstring their opposition no matter the cause.

The only thing that can break us free of that is critical thinking. And you can't teach that while telling someone what to think, you have to show them how to think.

A good start is exposing someone to antithesis's of their own belief. Then you have to teach them how to argue the opposing point, and do it well. That's how you teach empathy, what better way than to try and understand opposing beliefs. Not only can this open someone's mind, but it can make them more effective in arguing against something if they truly grasp it.

Because at the end of the day, hiveminds and shaming aren't effective. You can't fat shame someone into being skinny, even if for their own health and well being.

Also, it creates environments where the very thing we are trying to prevent becomes a possibility (when you don't teach critical thinking). An environment rich in hyperbole will breed extremism, and with it the blurring of lines between right and wrong veiled behind righteousness. Every popular ideology has very dark moments in their past or present, even some of which we hold respect or admiration for now.

For me, the more exposure I've had, the easier it is for me to gauge someone. I try not to measure someone for what they believe, but what are their intents? Because someone can be a good person while being wrong, and someone can be a bad person while being right. That distinction is important to me.

What book would they use if a teacher comes in with a Bible ? 😃

Or whatabout a U.S. Constitution ?😃

a reply to: xuenchen

What book would they use if a teacher comes in with a Bible ? 😃

Polytheism or antitheism. I breifely learned about those in school along with Abrahamic and other monotheistic religions. Not sure if that curriculum is taught in Texas as I lived most of my later years outside of Texas. I don't think any of those should be exempt including Christianity. It plays an important role in the modern society no matter your opinion of it.

Or whatabout a U.S. Constitution ?😃

We spent a lot of time on the subject of communism which is authoritarian rule and dictated economy (if you'd call it an economy).

How could anyone appreciate what they have if they don't know what else there is to provide contrast?

originally posted by: CriticalStinker
a reply to: DaCook

Unfortunately we live in a time that is full of ideological dogma's and void of any nuance. There is a war for minds right now, and the frontlines are drawn, people feel the need to hamstring their opposition no matter the cause.

The only thing that can break us free of that is critical thinking. And you can't teach that while telling someone what to think, you have to show them how to think.

A good start is exposing someone to antithesis's of their own belief. Then you have to teach them how to argue the opposing point, and do it well. That's how you teach empathy, what better way than to try and understand opposing beliefs. Not only can this open someone's mind, but it can make them more effective in arguing against something if they truly grasp it.

Because at the end of the day, hiveminds and shaming aren't effective. You can't fat shame someone into being skinny, even if for their own health and well being.

Also, it creates environments where the very thing we are trying to prevent becomes a possibility (when you don't teach critical thinking). An environment rich in hyperbole will breed extremism, and with it the blurring of lines between right and wrong veiled behind righteousness. Every popular ideology has very dark moments in their past or present, even some of which we hold respect or admiration for now.

For me, the more exposure I've had, the easier it is for me to gauge someone. I try not to measure someone for what they believe, but what are their intents? Because someone can be a good person while being wrong, and someone can be a bad person while being right. That distinction is important to me.

Absolute stunning post. My respect to you. This is what I expect from this website, not what it has turned into. Kudo’s to you.

Denny

I believe this to be the relevant section of the House Bill H.B.ANo.A3979.pdf (PDF Warning)

(1) no teacher shall be compelled by a policy of any state agency, school district, campus, open-enrollment charter school, or school administration to discuss current events or widely debated and currently controversial issues of public policy or social affairs;

(2) AAteachers who choose to discuss current events or widely debated and currently controversial issues of public policy or social affairs shall, to the best of their ability, strive to explore such issues from diverse and contending perspectives without giving deference to any one perspective;

Listening to the audio from the article, I would suggest the lady instructing the teachers has not understood this section completely.

I mean we never learned of the small pox blankets, or were made to believe indigenous people were not unhappy being put on reservations for example.

a reply to: frogs453

That would be a pretty good subject for opposing views. We are basically taught that white settlers invade N. America and killed the indigenous peoples and drove the survivors onto reservations. Many indians had been attacking whites for hundreds of years. As more settlers flowed into indian territory more were killed. At one point we were at war with the English and the tribes sided with the British. So lands taken through violence of war can be considered spoils of war. Look at Texas. Is Texas part of Mexico? no, spoils of war.

And who are the true indigenous tribes? The Hopi claim to have come from star people. So did they invade also? or tribes that crossed the Bering sea ice bridge? are they indigenous or invaders?

Neither condoning nor demonizing anything that happened, just another perspective that isnt necessarily 100% mine.

(2) AAteachers who choose to discuss current events or widely debated and currently controversial issues of public policy or social affairs shall, to the best of their ability, strive to explore such issues from diverse and contending perspectives without giving deference to any one perspective;

a reply to: Elton

So being this is Texas, Is it designed to teach kids that when learning of the Presidents of the United States, they have to include Trumps big lie of a stolen election and his and his worshipers claim to victory? That is what I see this being about. Nothing at all to do with the holocaust or genocide, just rewriting history for trump. Or perhaps the new boogeyman CRT.

originally posted by: Wide-Eyes

originally posted by: everyone
a reply to: frogs453

What is controversial about the holocausts?

There are jab pushers on some forums claiming that Zyclon B was just a delousing agent...

I think that tells us all we need to know about these people. Holocaust denial is being promoted to distract youngsters from spotting the similarities to what's happening today.

I honestly think we are hitting a massive roadblock here.

Something's gotta give.

You may have a point there. IMyself i ihave been thinking lately that what they are doing is similar to what the nazi's did, i mean just look at antifa and its origins. I have seen some people here and there in the past year denying the holocaust but then in places you would not normally see it. I have seen some here quite a few years ago but that went away after a while. I dont do twitter or FB so i am not any part of one of those social bubbles that they create on there so that is interesting to know TY.

Sounds to me like she is trying some malicious compliance, and failed.

The holocaust isnt widely debated. At least no in the West. They should fire her for showing her anti-Semitism.

a reply to: FunshineCD

In the 80s i learned all about smallpox blankets and how Europeans would have their dogs disembowel indians in their search for gold.

Just like all other war atrocities if the past we were taught war is hell, and people do miserable things. We also were taught how the Geneva Conventions resolved most if the worst parts and provided a framework for recourse.

originally posted by: Iconic
So you're saying if you have a history book

They need to also have works of fiction.

We have the Bible for that particular work of fiction.

Any truly resonable person should give a fair hearing to different arguments.

a reply to: frogs453

So what about the likes of the Bible?

Do they also have to teach Anton LaVey's rhetoric?

originally posted by: Bluntone22
a reply to: frogs453

Are they going to suggest opposing views when they read about slavery?

I’d hate for kids to think slavery was all bad.

Unsurprisingly this comment hasn't engendered much response/conversation in this thread.

Yet it remains a vital question.

As has been demonstrated many many MANY times in our society, victim questioning is tolerated for some classifications of victims, while other classifications are unassailable, and daring to call into question aspects of The Official Narrative (how were all of the slaves collected and transported, particularly on such a vast and impenetrable continent?) will get one in hot water fast.

One of the key ways to do this in the US is to compare/co-opt/"culturally appropriate" the Jewish Holocaust for one's own politically expediency. A common and disgusting trend.

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originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: frogs453

So what about the likes of the Bible?

Do they also have to teach Anton LaVey's rhetoric?

in the US, the Bible isn't taught in public school. We have "separation of church and state" over here.