It's ILLOGICAL to think God didn't Create the Universe

originally posted by: daskakik

[quoteWrong, you asked me to lay down my cards of belief, not to take yours into account.

Maybe you misunderstood me or I wasn't clear... I meant were you willing to lay "ALL" your cards down on the table... The ones you believe and the ones you don't... obviously I would be adding cards simply by way of our conversation that you would add to the mix to examine... It is what I did when I got into proving to myself what the shape of the earth was... I was willing to be wrong...and actually I went in trying to prove the earth was a ball blasting thru space... but my willingness to examine all sides, I was open to proving what I believed was wrong...

I don't believe in god/Jesus but creation is a possibility, but I never said I could prove any of it one way or the other.

Fair enough.... If you are open to creation being a possibility, maybe you're open to investigating what we can as far as where they tell us we live (Science/Heliocentrism) and compare it to where/what The Bible and most ancient cultures describe the earth/heavens as being (Science/Geocentrism) If by doing so you came to some sort of conclussion that this all must have been created, then you gotta ask yoursef who is the creator... and thus your journey begins....

So you had the god explanation prepared even before the events.

Had something prepared before it ever even happened to me??? IDK if I see it that way... what I can say is it was undeniably the God of The Bible as the only explanation.... and not that I was trying to fit a round peg into my square hole....

When I was about 11 I was visited by what I, at that time, called an angel of god. I also didn't need an explanation because I also knew in my heart what it was and who sent it. I know exactly what you mean by that love that you could not put into words.

That is 100% true but it isn't proof of god and even further from being proof that "In the beginning was God".

Do you still know in your heart who sent you that angel of God??? I 100% believe you... If it isn't proof of God/Creator then what is it to you???

In the beginning there was something.... none of this came into being from nothing or noone to create it... This is something that our finite human minds will never be able to fully grasp on this side of the mirror.... but one day I believe I will fully know even as I have been fully known...

With that Im off to bed and hopefully I got this quote thing done right....

originally posted by: PaPaTaco
Maybe you misunderstood me or I wasn't clear... I meant were you willing to lay "ALL" your cards down on the table...

I might be wrong but I think you mean, willing to look at any and everything with an open mind.

I've been doing that for the past 35 years. Of course, over the years I have placed some things in certain categories and I don't feel the need to take a look at them again.

If by doing so you came to some sort of conclussion that this all must have been created, then you gotta ask yoursef who is the creator... and thus your journey begins....

Been on that journey for decades as well and I keep moving further and further away from the biblical god.

Had something prepared before it ever even happened to me??? IDK if I see it that way... what I can say is it was undeniably the God of The Bible as the only explanation.... and not that I was trying to fit a round peg into my square hole....

Were there any other gods you believed in or any other spiritual belief to turn to? I mean, when all you have is one thing, that is what you are going to go with and it usually doesn't take any effort when you already believe in it.

Do you still know in your heart who sent you that angel of God??? I 100% believe you... If it isn't proof of God/Creator then what is it to you???

That is the thing, it doesn't matter what it was to me at that time or what it is to me now. Proof is something I can show to others. It isn't proof of anything. It is just a story.

In the beginning there was something.... none of this came into being from nothing or noone to create it... This is something that our finite human minds will ever be able to fully grasp on this side of the mirror.... but one day I believe I will fully known even as I have been fully known...

It could also be that our finite human minds can't grasp something springing up out of nothing so we have to fill that in with something.

The odd thing is that people using the "something can't come from nothing" argument have no problem with god just always having been, apparently also having come from nothing.

With that Im off to bed and hopefully I got this quote thing done right....

Almost, you missed a closing bracket in the first one but you don't have to place one there because ATS places one before the "originally posted by:" line.

a reply to: daskakik

You said:

It could also be that our finite human minds can't grasp something springing up out of nothing so we have to fill that in with something.

This is the hubris of the human ego. Do you really thinkwe're the only intellect in the universe? Do you really think we're the only awareness in the universe? Science is now saying you need an infinite multiverse, eternal inflation, 10^500 false vacua or more to explain the fine tuning of the universe.

So out of the infinite or eternal, you think awareness, logic, reason, consciousness and love just emerged 6,000 years ago and started building modern civilizations?

How can awareness evolve from non awareness? How can awareness of experience evolve from non awareness of experience?

How does the material brain initiate memory recall? How does the material brain tell the material brain which memory it wants the material brain to recall and why?

These are not just questions, these are things that can't be achieved by materialism in any logical scientific inference. This Strategy Guide explains scientific inference well.

Introduction This strategy guide introduces an approach for teaching about how scientists use evidence to make inferences. The ability to gather and evaluate evidence is central to scientific inquiry, especially when scientists investigate things that are not directly observable. This guide includes an introductory section about how scientists use evidence to make inferences, a general overview of how to use this strategy with many science texts, and a plan for teaching how scientists gather evidence to make inferences with the Seeds of Science/Roots of Reading® book Science You Can’t See

Science You Can’t See introduces readers to the work of three scientists who study phenomena that cannot be observed directly. Karen Chin studies dinosaurs using fossilized remains. Edward Saade investigates the depth of the ocean floor using sound waves. Farid El Gabaly makes images of magnetic atoms using an electron microscope. Each of these three scientists must make inferences to answer their questions. Their inferences are based on evidence that they collect during their investigations. Readers learn that scientists gather and interpret evidence and draw conclusions based on this evidence

www.readingrockets.org...

So, it's scientific to make inferences based on evidence. Let's look at some evidence.

Like I said earlier:

How does the material brain initiate memory recall? How does the material brain tell the material brain which memory it wants the material brain to recall and why?

What science can show is that the brain is active as you recall a memory and that memories are stored in the brain. What the evidence can't show through activity in the brain is qualia. Why did you recall that memory? How do you feel about that memory and why? Why did you recall that memory at that time?

None of this can be explained or logically infered by materialism. The only explanation from materialism is that this awareness of experience somehow emerged. That's illogical and goes against reason. I make the logical scientific inference that logic and reason didn't emerge and has always existed.

Again, the only scientific evidence is that the brain or the machine or the reciever is active when you recall a memory. There's no correlation between the recall of a memory and how you experience this memory and that activity. Materialism is absurd!

When you look at DNA, how can a storage medium encode it's own sequence with information, build the machinary to decode that sequence in the transcription and translation process and encode information in non coding regions that regulate the expression of coding regions?

This would be like a snowflake encoded with the information to build a snowman and encoded with information to build the machinery in a modular way to build the snowman!

This is more advanced than any supercomputer today. The correlation of information exceeds anything human intelligence can produce. Some of this machinary has a modular design which means it's made of of separate parts that are the right size, right shape and come together at the right angles to carry out different tasks.

Again, this is the evidence. Based on the evidence, I make the logical scientific inference of Intelligent Design. There's no logical inference when this is viewed from the standpoint of materialism. How can a storage medium encode it's own sequence with information and build modular machinery to decode that sequence?

My intelligence can encode sequence with information. I can say if there's 2 chairs at the table, then meet me at Subway on 4th St. downtown at 4 PM. I can also say, if there's 4 chairs at the table, meet me at Chipolte on MLK Drive at 5 PM.

My intelligence has encoded the sequence of chairs with information that can be decoded by another intelligent mind or I can build machinery to decode the information. The chairs like the DNA molecule are a storage medium. The chairs don't encode their own sequence with information and neither does DNA. This is why we can use DNA to encode DVD's or PDF files. The chairs don't know about Subway or Chipolte just like DNA doesn't know about a blood cell or a big toe! It takes intelligence to encode sequence with information and build machinery that's in a modular design to decode the information. You can go into any factory or assembly line and see this.

I can make a scientific inference based on the evidence of Intelligent Design and reject and dismiss a natural interpretation of evolution which is a fantasy! One more:

Scientist now believe we have a quantum sense of smell. So there's a mix of the shape of the molecule that fits into the odor receptors and quantum vibrations.

The evidence shows that there's no objective taste to food. This is about as Matrix as it gets. How does the shape of a molecule and quantum vibrations know what pizza or steak is supposed to taste like? There's no objective taste to pizza, steak or tacos that's vastly different without smell. Your awareness experiences eating these things because there's no objective taste to pizza or steak!



Why you lose your sense of smell and taste when you’ve got a cold

Still, what sucks with both colds and flu (aside from feeling ghastly) is that you can’t even enjoy the flavour of that yummy chicken soup you thought would make you feel better. Of course, it’s because you’ve lost your sense of taste along with your sense of humour. But ever wondered why you can’t taste properly with a cold or stuffy nose?

More importantly though, is to understand that the flavour of food involves both smell and taste. In fact, 80% of our taste is related to smell, so it’s not surprising that most of the flavour of a food comes from your ability to smell it, explains Professor Jeremiah Alt, Assistant Professor of Surgery and Rhinology at University of Utah Hospitals and Clinics.

www.news24.com...

So based on the evidence I can make a scientific logical inference that you need awareness of experience to when eating food because how does the materierial convert shapes and quantum vibrations into experience?

originally posted by: neoholographic
This is the hubris of the human ego.

So is the other option: "Someone made this place just for us".

Not sure what you think the rest of your post proves. It's scientific to make inferences based on evidence but that doesn't mean that these inferences carry the same weight as evidence that has been confirmed.

Scientists understand that inferences are always subject to revision as new evidence becomes available or new ways of thinking emerge.

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: neoholographic
This is the hubris of the human ego.

So is the other option: "Someone made this place just for us".

Not sure what you think the rest of your post proves. It's scientific to make inferences based on evidence but that doesn't mean that these inferences carry the same weight as evidence that has been confirmed.

Scientists understand that inferences are always subject to revision as new evidence becomes available or new ways of thinking emerge.

In this case, the inferences is even more profound.

This is because there's no logical scientific inference to make in these things based on materialism. It's not even apples & oranges, materialism isn't even in the same category in these areas. Materialism belongs in middle earth with the Hobbits. It's a fantasy. The only reason people accept it because it backs their atheism or materialism. It allows them to deny their spiritual nature but they need to realize they are without excuse. I believe everyone knows there's more to us than what we call material, but their carnal minds suppress what they know to be true. The Bible says:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

This means, God has given us reason to understand His Creation as well as the spiritual. We call Einstein or Hawking a genius for discovering the Genius of God. I believe every materialist and atheist inherently knows that the spiritual exists and we're not just flesh but they suppress these feelings because they want to be a law unto themselves without any regard for the spiritual realm.

So like the Bible says, there's no excuse. On that day, some will say,"God, I had no evidence." You will be shown all of the times you knew in your heart that our spiritual nature exists and there had to be more than the material but your carnal mind CHOSE to reject and suppress the spiritual.

originally posted by: neoholographic
This is because there's no logical scientific inference to make in these things based on materialism.

Seemed to me you brought up scientific inferences just so you can say:

So based on the evidence I can make a scientific logical inference that you need awareness of experience to when eating food because how does the materierial convert shapes and quantum vibrations into experience?

I said yes but it doesn't carry the same weight as confirmed evidence.

It's not even apples & oranges...

I don't even know what you are comparing.

I might be wrong but I think you mean, willing to look at any and everything with an open mind.

I've been doing that for the past 35 years. Of course, over the years I have placed some things in certain categories and I don't feel the need to take a look at them again.

Yes that is what I mean.... You said you were willing to lay all your cards down... Now it sounds like are not willing to do so.... You're not willing to humble yourself, but rather vanity and pride and your own puffed up "I lready know it all" flesh/mind is keeping you from looking at new or old things you've already looked at for 35 years or maybe not at all.... I mean you were totally unwilling to even read the scripture I attached which went on to further explain what I was saying in my entire Testimony thread... So how could you really even decipher or understand what I was saying or where I was coming from.... Hence why we have had so many back n forths trying to understand what I was saying...

It's all vanity of vanities in the end of our materialistic/flesh based lives bro... and I know what spirit is keeping you from even wanting to examine (again) or to "Test All Things" and hold fast to that which is good...

Maybe you don't want the God of the Bible to be real or true.... IDK... maybe your flesh and the darkness is keeping you from wanting to lay yourself down and submitting to that sort of life/walk... I'm only assuming here... Maybe you've never even thought of it in such a way....

But the evidence/evidences are out there...which leaves us without excuse... God The Father has revealed himself.... in the things he has created and He also revealed himself in His only begotten son that He sent to dwell among us.... (Test those cards... throw them in the mix... even if you say you already have)

Been on that journey for decades as well and I keep moving further and further away from the biblical god.

So what is exactly is it.... be totally honest... "What" is it that keeps moving you away from the biblical God". Did something happen in your life that has caused you to hate Him... I often find that those who deny His existence...truthfully and honestly hate what/who they say does not exist... So i'm curious to try and understand, what it is that keeps moving you away....

Were there any other gods you believed in or any other spiritual belief to turn to? I mean, when all you have is one thing, that is what you are going to go with and it usually doesn't take any effort when you already believe in it.

Sure there are other "gods" I believe exist.... but I dont "Believe In Them" (I believe in God The Father/Son/H.S., some may call him Yahweh/Yahshua/Ruach Hakodesh). If you're trying to claim that since I was raised up or trained up in a certain narrow way of thinking or belief, then I only had one option to turn too... well that's a narrow way of thinking and doesn't fit my life or how any of our lives work...

I mean you already sit here and believe what you believe.... So it doesn't take much effort to refute and rebutt... The effort comes in sifting thru those cards....that you're unwilling to really sift thru....again in an effort to finally lay yourself down in hopes and belief that you will finally come to the truth... Even if you don't see it that way... there is a evil spirit and your own vain fallen flesh/mind, holding you back from doing so... "Pride comes before the fall" (We all deal/dealt with it)

That is the thing, it doesn't matter what it was to me at that time or what it is to me now. Proof is something I can show to others. It isn't proof of anything. It is just a story.

So it sounds like as a child in your heart you knew where it came from... (Altho I will mention even Satan himself can present himself as an angel of light) but if indeed this was an "Angel of God" that angel didn't just come from nothing... It does not exist per say in our Material Realm, but rather comes from the "Spiritual Realm" where it is indeed a created being just as real as you and I in our earthly realm... So today whatever it is you think of it being as just a story... and if you are being 100% here...then it happened to you... It is more proof that "Creation" is true... So who then created this Angel of God/Light??? If it is of "The Light" and you say you know what that "Love" felt like.... then it was Good.... If there is Good then there is Bad (Evil... I know I've been tormented by Demons) So if there is Light and Darkness, there is Good and Evil.... there is a God of Love and a God of Hate... a God of Peace and a God of Chaos... These realms and creatures/beings Angels/Demons do exist... This is way more than a story.... It was presented as "Evidence" to you... I don't know if today you are denying it as evidence or just claiming that to the hearer or your encounter its only just a story... (To me... if you are being honest it is more than a story... it is evidence of things unseen... that sometime come and happen to us in our realm... The Bible is chalked full of it)

It could also be that our finite human minds can't grasp something springing up out of nothing so we have to fill that in with something.

The odd thing is that people using the "something can't come from nothing" argument have no problem with god just always having been, apparently also having come from nothing.

In a sense yes you are right.... Our finite minds can not understand that God (The Light) has always existed.... we are on this side of the mirror in our fallen state nature.... and may I mention not only in our fallen state, but we have been programmed from our birth to reject the evidences that surround us daily... we are programmed to believe in everything but the evidences The Word gave us.... We truly are without excuse, but I get it that most of the world lives as a "Pig in a Fence".... and or as "Sheep" (which we all are) follow many Shepherds that have become the Lords of their life... (The is only one true Shepherd...and His sheep hear/know His voice)

but to say or claim that something sprang up from nothing....requires some serious Blind Faith.... it is so much easier to believe that this was all created...in perfect order than to think our of nothing (or singularity) that chaos as ordered itself into this perfectly working system of the heavens, earth and all living creatures and beings.... None of this order came out of chaos.... none of this just happened by stance... you are more than just nothingness or star dust... You have a heart a minds a soul... you have a purpose for being here... apurpose for the breath of life being breathed into you... you were created... for way more than what you currently may think all this means....

So I screwed up the quote thing again.... I'm not going to bother to fix it.... LOL...

originally posted by: PaPaTaco
So I screwed up the quote thing again.... I'm not going to bother to fix it.... LOL...

in this portion:

"I've been doing that for the past 35 years. Of course, over the years I have placed some things in certain categories and I don't feel the need to take a look at them again.[/qoute]"

You spelled "quote" wrong as I bolded above, so it screwed up the coding. Correct the spelling and it should fix everything.

a reply to: neoholographic

Show me just one person that is not spiritual. Every human being is constantly looking for meaning, talking with angels, spirits, ancestors, aliens, the self, that's all spirituality.

originally posted by: Grenade
a reply to: cooperton

It seems we live in a chaotic entropic universe according to some, I’d love to know the explanation for the ordered systems you describe in such a place.

It’s like suggesting with enough time the wind will blow the sand on a beach into a perfectly uniform and structured sand castle without intelligent interference.

Yeah it's at the point of impossibility for random chance to create ordered systems that are beyond the capabilities of being created by the human intellect. All facets of biological organisms are incredibly intricate and precise, and it's plain logic to think that their source was also therefore Logical

a reply to: cooperton

Hey brother... you fixed it for me... LOL Thanks man.... You'll find I often mispell words... my fingers fly so fast or maybe its my brain... one of the 2 can't keep up with the other.

originally posted by: PaPaTaco
You're not willing to humble yourself...

There is nothing humbling about reading scripture. The fact is that unless it has been edited, it still says the same thing I read for myself many times and when I heard it in church countless times.

(Test those cards... throw them in the mix... even if you say you already have)

How? Might as well ask me to consider santa claus and the easter bunny being real even though I discounted them years ago.

So what is exactly is it.... be totally honest... "What" is it that keeps moving you away from the biblical God". Did something happen in your life that has caused you to hate Him... I often find that those who deny His existence...truthfully and honestly hate what/who they say does not exist... So i'm curious to try and understand, what it is that keeps moving you away....

Mostly it is the contradictions in the bible. OT god ordering the killing of whole towns, satan showing up for a chat with god and ending up ruining Job's life with god's seal of approval.

Then there are all the fables designed for kids.

You probably don't see this but it is how I see it and if the source is sketchy the content is questionable.

If you're trying to claim that since I was raised up or trained up in a certain narrow way of thinking or belief, then I only had one option to turn too... well that's a narrow way of thinking and doesn't fit my life or how any of our lives work...

But it is the most likely scenario.

Besides you just did the same when you asked: "Did something happen in your life that has caused you to hate Him"

Even if you don't see it that way... there is a evil spirit and your own vain fallen flesh/mind, holding you back from doing so... "Pride comes before the fall" (We all deal/dealt with it)

And in another pot meet kettle example, now you sound like a "know it all".

It is more proof that "Creation" is true...

You really have a problem with the concept of proof.

It doesn't matter what it is to me, to everyone else it is just a story. I can't prove it actually happened so it isn't empirical proof.

but to say or claim that something sprang up from nothing....requires some serious Blind Faith....

You totally missed it, it is the same blind faith you have in god.

Here is the thing, most people don't place that much importance on the big bang theory. They don't think about it. It isn't their religion. I'd say half, if not more probably have their won spiritual path that they follow. It is only in these types of threads where the claim that people hold on to it religiously is made.

Sure there are some but I think it is a very small minority.

Intelligent design isn’t a valid argument in favor of a christian god. Millions of unlikely, random events took place over the course of billions of years in order for us to evolve into what we are today. Religion tells us that god is all knowing and all powerful. ID tells us that the “creator” was either not smart enough to form a less convoluted plan or not powerful enough to implement a better plan.
I think an unguided Universe is where the data leads — a Universe of meaningless stars, planets and galaxies all going about their business with no endgame in mind. Galaxies collide, nature consumes itself, innocent children die, evil are allowed to prosper, and good men go bald.

Love it.

It was all made by a god.

Shame all the fools think it is a christian one.

originally posted by: peck420
Love it.

It was all made by a god.

Shame all the fools think it is a christian one.

Just look at it this way , there’s no evidence for any god at all. There will always be far more variables required for an invisible, intelligent, eternal God to create something, than for that thing to have just always existed, in some form, on its own.
By comparison, energy and particles are pretty dumb. They don’t begin with a high degree of complexity, and must rely on natural laws, chance probabilities, and selection to begin to form any sort of true complexity.
..so if you mean the eternal Universe is God..then agrees.

a reply to: toktaylor
I am using the multitude of human created gods to mock a religious subset that believes their god must be "the God".

a reply to: daskakik


There's alot to unpack there and respond too...

I don't think I have it in me at the moment to break all that down... Maybe later, but you sound like you got up on the wrong side of the bed today friend... not sure it's a good time to have a back n forth...

Anywho.... like I said. I'm not here to debate in an ad hominem way... but I certainly enjoy having a good chat and trying to do it in a brotherly sort of way...

Hope your day serves you well...

Catch you laters.

a reply to: PaPaTaco
Well, let me just say that your "brotherly way" comes off as "preaching down to someone".

Maybe you could just give me the benefit of the doubt and accept that I have done my due diligence in exploring the christian faith and just came to a different conclusion than you did?

I mean I grew up in somewhat religious family (church on sundays, bible class during the week) and even considered devoting my life to the church in my early teens. So yeah, I covered the material.

a reply to: daskakik

Just out of curiosity... What Church did you grow up in???

I don't mean to come across as "Preaching Down To You"... Trust me.. in person I'm a pretty quiet and humble loving guy... I can see how one may read me tho... as I do lay it down in a pretty matter of fact way... Again not because I am a know it all... I'm just well versed in a few areas and topics that I've spent most of my life in or around or having researched and studied...

I don't get out much due to my health... so basically for the last 15 years... most of my waking hours I am doing some kind of studying... It has def changed me into the man I am today... I've come out of many many ways of thinking and believing I used to once have...

I guess there is a fine line when it comes to sharing/speaking with Humility and Assurance...

So forgive me if I've come across as being a jerk... I'm not...