Why wouldn't the laws of physics come from an intelligent mind?

Why wouldn't the laws of physics and the fine tuning of the universe come from an intelligent mind?

Rules and laws are designed to bring order to chaos. For instance, we have traffic laws which brings order to the chaos of many different people driving cars. These traffic laws didn't just come from nowhere. They were designed by intelligence. So why wouldn't the laws of physics be designed by intelligence?

Where did the laws of physics come from? Where did the fine tuning of the universe come from? Where did the correlations between these things come from?

They have to come from an Intelligent Designer.

The Bible explains this perfectly in Genesis.

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

So you have matter without form and void(chaos) that needed rules and laws to bring order to the chaos.

In my mind, I need to know where laws that bring order and are correlated came from. You also have to go back to the intial conditions that created the the heavens and the earth by the Word or Mind of God.







The Bible not only explains how the universe was created but that the Word of God created the laws that govern physics. So just like the laws that govern traffic or your workplace comes from an intelligent mind, the laws that govern and fine tune the universe needs to come from an intelligent mind. How can laws exists without intelligence?

Hebrews 11:3 “Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”

So again, the Bible tells us the laws of physics and the fine tuning came from the word of God. It's exactly what you would expect because laws come from an intelligent mind to govern chaos.

So materialist, where did the laws that govern physics come from?

The laws of physics could sure come from an intelligent mind. I say this as a complete Atheist.
What I absolutely do not believe is that this mind belongs to a god, i.e a benevolent being that can read all of our minds and only seems to be interested in humans.
If there is a mind involved, it very probably belongs to a scientist or mega nerd and I would think there are others too, some less inventive, somewhere in a dimension we can't grasp.

This whole malarkey with praying, sinning, hell, punishment etc is clearly manmade or the dinosaurs would have already kneeled and done some silly religious stuff.

Also you can be spiritual without any gods. Nature is quite capable of producing souls and recycling them if they indeed exist.

Religion is a cul de sac that thinks everything revolves around it, when in fact most beings that have lived and live now don't adhere to it, don't know about it and still live a perfectly good life.

a reply to: neoholographic

I see your intelligent design hypothesis and raise you a Fermi paradox.

a reply to: Hecate666

You said:

when in fact most beings that have lived and live now don't adhere to it, don't know about it and still live a perfectly good life.

What's a perfectly good life? If there's no God then there's no objective morality and a rapist or murderer can say they're living a perfectly good life. Without God, morality would be relative to the observer and that observer can donate to charity or kill people and there's no difference between them without objective morality that comes from God the intelligence that created all things.

a reply to: Hecate666

Religion encompasses all Belief. Faith is the level of confidence One has in a particular set of beliefs.

Everyone believe's something.

a reply to: neoholographic

If the universe has to be created by an intelligent mind, surely the intelligent mind has to be created by an intelligent mind?

So is it intelligent minds all the way down/up?

Or are you saying you need no explanation for the existence of an intelligent mind because you can accept it as a given?

Then why not save a superfluous layer of mystery by accepting the existence of the universe as a given?

originally posted by: neoholographic
a reply to: Hecate666

You said:

when in fact most beings that have lived and live now don't adhere to it, don't know about it and still live a perfectly good life.

What's a perfectly good life? If there's no God then there's no objective morality and a rapist or murderer can say they're living a perfectly good life. Without God, morality would be relative to the observer and that observer can donate to charity or kill people and there's no difference between them without objective morality that comes from God the intelligence that created all things.

One does not need your christian version of god to be a moral person. The way you put it, all atheists and agnostics should be rapists and murderers and that clearly isn't the case. Conversely, I can't count the number of heinous crimes committed by people who claim to be Christian. As usual, you begin with the answer you want and then fill in the preceding blanks with the narrative that fits your personal views and not the facts.

originally posted by: neoholographic
a reply to: Hecate666

You said:

when in fact most beings that have lived and live now don't adhere to it, don't know about it and still live a perfectly good life.

What's a perfectly good life? If there's no God then there's no objective morality and a rapist or murderer can say they're living a perfectly good life. Without God, morality would be relative to the observer and that observer can donate to charity or kill people and there's no difference between them without objective morality that comes from God the intelligence that created all things.

Morals are an intrinsic understanding that needs insight and intelligence. I agree that some people need a sky police man to keep an eye on them but lets face it. I have very religious family who are nasty backstabbers, liars and pervs. So the god idea doesn't work for them

I do not have a god but I have intrinsic values and know right from wrong and I do not wish to commit murders or robberies.
I have very high moral standards because I am just a naturally nice person I guess.
If you need to commit crimes as soon as nobody is looking, then you are just a bad egg and no religion will change that.

That's quite sad and scary.

a reply to: EvilAxis

You said:

If the universe has to be created by an intelligent mind, surely the intelligent mind has to be created by an intelligent mind?

Why is this the case?

This is that old, nonsensical argument that if God created the universe then who created God.

First, why would I debate the proposition of a god that was created when I believe in an eternal God? I've always found this argument puzzling, because an atheist that doesn't believe in God, wants me to debate a version of god that was created. They do this because they can't debate against an eternal God that wasn't created.

Do beings that have intelligent minds inside of space limited to 3 dimensions need to be created? Yes

Does God who's outside of space and time need to be created? No

So, why should I debate a god that had to be created? You shouldn't

originally posted by: highvein
a reply to: Hecate666

Religion encompasses all Belief. Faith is the level of confidence One has in a particular set of beliefs.

Everyone believe's something.

So you are explaining the word religion as a belief in something. Fine, but that has no relevance in this thread which is clearly about a diety that resembles mostly abrahamic religions.
Meaning it is both an invisible omniscient being yet at the same time behaves like a human as in having hatred, killing anyone it doesn't like or who isn't obediant, who engages in warfare and has favourites.

None of which is congruent with each other.

When a story doesn't make sense, I can't just have blind faith. Sorry, it's not in me. It's illogical.

If the universe was created by intelligent design...a god...why would it be a christian one?

Honestly? Why wouldn't it be a god from a much older religion?

a reply to: neoholographic

If the universe has to be created by an intelligent mind, surely the intelligent mind has to be created by an intelligent mind?

Why is this the case?

Because everything that exists, has a beginning.

Interesting you mention your eternal god needs no point of origin.

Can you imagine others believing the eternal universe needing no god for it to be?

originally posted by: neoholographic

Without God, morality would be relative to the observer and that observer can donate to charity or kill people and there's no difference between them without objective morality that comes from God the intelligence that created all things.

And you think our laws aren't based on the combined relative morality of everyone who participates in society? If morality was so clear cut then our laws wouldn't be constantly changing, and every nation on Earth would have the same laws.

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder

The point I'm basically trying to convey is that there is no "greater plan" for each of us, we really do create our own purpose and there is nothing wrong with that, it can still provide just as much purpose. However there is a very real risk of this philosophy being bastardized and taken too far, being used to justify what is clearly terrible behavior, by saying things such as "well morality is simply what you make of it, there is no real meaning or purpose to anything". This is obviously a dangerous way of thinking, and I'm seeing it used by the more extreme liberal groups who see it as a way to justify their morally questionable behavior. A recent video from VICE titled The Satanic Temple's Protest for First Amendment Rights demonstrates this nicely.
...
The VICE video covers their attempt to get their statue placed on the Capitol lawn, a statue of a creepy goat dude being worshiped by children. It's true that morality is subjective, however over time our societies converge on a system of morality, and moreover it's really much less subjective than one may first assume, for example if something appears "creepy" to one person there is a substantial probability it will appear creepy to other people. They know the statue will upset most people yet they push it anyway.

Why Jordan Peterson is Wrong yet Right

originally posted by: neoholographic
This is that old, nonsensical argument that if God created the universe then who created God.

It's old but only nonsensical to debate if you already believe God created the universe and that's a fact not amenable to further questions.

But that's begging the question you were apparently addressing.

originally posted by: neoholographic

First, why would I debate the proposition of a god that was created when I believe in an eternal God?

I guess you wouldn't, particularly if you were averse to changing that belief.
But it's perverse to raise the topic, "Why wouldn't the laws of physics come from an intelligent mind?" and then question why you would debate it.

originally posted by: neoholographic

I've always found this argument puzzling, because an atheist that doesn't believe in God, wants me to debate a version of god that was created. They do this because they can't debate against an eternal God that wasn't created.

Clearly it's impossible to debate for or against the existence of an 'eternal God that wasn't created', 'who's outside space and time'. By definition it's impossible to find evidence for or against anything outside space and time, unless it was or is in some way connected to our space and time - in which case it is not outside space and time...

As Jubei42 says, the universe is not understood to be something which itself exists in time. Rather time exists in the universe. So it really is nonsensical to ask what caused it (i.e., what preceded it in time), but unlike your idea of an intelligent God, we know that it does exist by direct perception.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: neoholographic

If the universe has to be created by an intelligent mind, surely the intelligent mind has to be created by an intelligent mind?

Why is this the case?

Because everything that exists, has a beginning.

Really, when did quantum fields begin?

When did gravity begin?

When did virtual particles begin?

When did the quantum vacuum begin?

When did superposition begin?

When did entanglement begin?

When did entropy begin?

What came first, the particles or entanglement?

originally posted by: Hecate666
The laws of physics could sure come from an intelligent mind. I say this as a complete Atheist.
What I absolutely do not believe is that this mind belongs to a god, i.e a benevolent being that can read all of our minds and only seems to be interested in humans.
If there is a mind involved, it very probably belongs to a scientist or mega nerd and I would think there are others too, some less inventive, somewhere in a dimension we can't grasp.

This whole malarkey with praying, sinning, hell, punishment etc is clearly manmade or the dinosaurs would have already kneeled and done some silly religious stuff.

Also you can be spiritual without any gods. Nature is quite capable of producing souls and recycling them if they indeed exist.

Religion is a cul de sac that thinks everything revolves around it, when in fact most beings that have lived and live now don't adhere to it, don't know about it and still live a perfectly good life.

You are completely flat out wrong in most all of that, but that is the beauty of being human, you get to choose everything that you are and what your fate will be.

originally posted by: neoholographic

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: neoholographic

If the universe has to be created by an intelligent mind, surely the intelligent mind has to be created by an intelligent mind?

Why is this the case?

Because everything that exists, has a beginning.

Really, when did quantum fields begin?

When did gravity begin?

When did virtual particles begin?

When did the quantum vacuum begin?

When did superposition begin?

When did entanglement begin?

When did entropy begin?

What came first, the particles or entanglement?

When? How? Why? Where? Something is missing, What?, Who?

Hey, here's a question. Would this VAst Living Intelligence System exist if there was no life and no human beings around to conceptualize it?

a reply to: Hecate666

Why do you think only humans experience emotions.

Blind Faith. Have you ever had Blind Faith in anything?