Medieval English Relic Found In The Kingdom Of Ashanti

Data
Museum number
1896,0727.1
Title
Object: The Asante Jug
Description
Jug; copper alloy; on the front of the spouted jug are the royal arms of England as used in the period 1340 to 1405, with a crown above and two lion supporters; on each side of the neck of the jug are three roundels with a falcon spreading its wings, the roundels nearest the spout with the falcon looking to the front, the others with the falcon looking to the back; around the belly of the jug are three lines of lettering within a moulded band; these are read from the bottom and form two mottoes: '+ HE THAT WYL NOT SPARE WHEN HE MAY HE SHALL NOT / SPEND WHEN HE WOULD DEME THE BEST IN EVERY / DOWT TIL THE TROWTHE BE TRYID OWTE' (He that will not spare when he may he shall not spend when he would / Deem the best in every doubt until the truth be tried out); the seven-sided lid on each facet with a lion facing left and a stag couchant, without chain, facing right; on the lip are three lions facing left and a stag in a circle facing right; the handle terminating in a scrolled quatrefoil.

www.britishmuseum.org...

m.youtube.com...
Klik here^^ pls interesting information.

This vid was the inspiration that got me posting this, truly a mystery, how did it end up in an African Ashanti grave site.
It was certainly gifted , but gifted by whom?? and when ?? , can't imagine a 12 th century English ship on a diplomatic or trade mission to far away coastal West Africa.
A trade or diplomatic mission to the Savannah countries to the north of the Akan??. who then gifted it to their trading partners to the south of them, .unlikely as these nations would be religiously hostile to any Christian Englishman or Europeans for that matter, because of that little incident called the crusades was still fresh in the minds of many.
Very very unlikely is Akan Diplomats paying Christian England a vist, as they were committed ...Paaaagans!! and their seafaring skills would have been basic as hell.
A later time perhaps say 16th -17 cent, would have been possible, but why bring some old timey Jars 400yrs back to gift a king, certainly when the English was gifting stuff they would want their current stamp on it.

a reply to: Spider879
Might it have been captured?
In that period, there was no shortage of English contact with Spanish and Portuguese. Claiming the crown of Castile, John of Gaunt married his daughter to the king of Portugal. The "gift" could have been part of that occasion or something similar.
And it was exactly at that period that Portuguese trading/exploring ships were moving down the west coast of Africa. That could have been the second leg of the journey.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Spider879
Might it have been captured?
In that period, there was no shortage of English contact with Spanish and Portuguese. Claiming the crown of Castile, John of Gaunt married his daughter to the king of Portugal. The "gift" could have been part of that occasion or something similar.
And it was exactly at that period that Portuguese trading/exploring ships were moving down the west coast of Africa. That could have been the second leg of the journey.

Yeah but that'd be a century or so too early right, but still best explanation on hand.

a reply to: Spider879
You mean too early for the Portuguese voyages? But there could easily have been a long time interval between the two "legs" of the journey. In fact a gift made in 1400 would have lost most of its signficance by 1460, which makes it more plausible, perhaps, that it could have found its way onto the captain's table of a sea-voyager. It's only copper alloy, not gold or silver.

Indeed the mottoes strike me as a little too homely for diplomatic use. I suggest that it was actually owned for daily use by somebody royal or a royal household, and then sold on when their tableware was updated.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Spider879
You mean too early for the Portuguese voyages? But there could easily have been a long time interval between the two "legs" of the journey. In fact a gift made in 1400 would have lost most of its signficance by 1460, which makes it more plausible, perhaps, that it could have found its way onto the captain's table of a sea-voyager. It's only copper alloy, not gold or silver.

Indeed the mottoes strike me as a little too homely for diplomatic use. I suggest that it was actually owned for daily use by somebody royal or a royal household, and then sold on when their tableware was updated.

Making a lot more sense, good theory.

a reply to: Spider879

That's the UEFA European Football Championship trophy from the last time they won..

Sorry, couldn't resist

a reply to: Spider879

According to me it shows how little we know about ourselves. Pretty obvious someone had to bring it there all the way.

I'd rather focus in the message on it. It's intriguing even with the translation to modern English. Those words might explain all.

HE THAT WYL NOT SPARE WHEN HE MAY HE SHALL NOT / SPEND WHEN HE WOULD DEME THE BEST IN EVERY / DOWT TIL THE TROWTHE BE TRYID OWTE'

32 He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things?
Romans 8:32

21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either.
Romans 11:21

Looks like a secret message hidden behind a religious context. I smell a buried treasure.

Also to consider what was stored inside that jar. I don't believe it travelled all the way empty.

a reply to: Spider879

I'm going with Vikings mate

They certainly had the sailing skills in that era having been all the way to Canada, central Russia etc. Indeed many so called Berbers today are going to be decended from Vikings who settled in north Africa opposite to their Italian states like the Kings of Sicily etc.

There were many Vikings who were dispersed too over the western Mediterranean after the loss of a sea battle and thus ended up in Africa never return. Was this relic on their ship?

My money's on the Vikings

Should have used the word Normans above. Norman conquests, creating a Kingdom in north Africa existed so trade links would have gone over the Sahara and south with the traders. Quite late on in Norman campaigns was the adventure into the Canary Islands. This was 1402 so fits the tibetables around this relic. Probing around NW Africa was obviously a Norman / Viking adventure that probably went on pretty constantly during this period and we will never know the extent of this, so the idea that a relic ended up there from Britain very much on the cards.................

"Between 1402 and 1405, the expedition led by the Norman noble Jean de Bethencourt[46] and the Poitevine Gadifer de la Salle conquered the Canarian islands of Lanzarote, Fuerteventura and El Hierro off the Atlantic coast of Africa. Their troops were gathered in Normandy, Gascony and were later reinforced by Castilian colonists.

Bethencourt took the title of King of the Canary Islands, as vassal to Henry III of Castile. In 1418, Jean's nephew Maciot de Bethencourt sold the rights to the islands to Enrique Pérez de Guzmán, 2nd Count de Niebla" en.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
a reply to: Spider879

I'm going with Vikings mate

They certainly had the sailing skills in that era having been all the way to Canada, central Russia etc. Indeed many so called Berbers today are going to be decended from Vikings who settled in north Africa opposite to their Italian states like the Kings of Sicily etc.

There were many Vikings who were dispersed too over the western Mediterranean after the loss of a sea battle and thus ended up in Africa never return. Was this relic on their ship?

My money's on the Vikings

Interesting theory and they certainly had the 12 th century seafaring skills to get there, first contact with coastal West Africans made by Vikings , I'm sure a movie script is waiting in there somewhere

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
Should have used the word Normans above. Norman conquests, creating a Kingdom in north Africa existed so trade links would have gone over the Sahara and south with the traders. Quite late on in Norman campaigns was the adventure into the Canary Islands. This was 1402 so fits the tibetables around this relic. Probing around NW Africa was obviously a Norman / Viking adventure that probably went on pretty constantly during this period and we will never know the extent of this, so the idea that a relic ended up there from Britain very much on the cards.................

"Between 1402 and 1405, the expedition led by the Norman noble Jean de Bethencourt[46] and the Poitevine Gadifer de la Salle conquered the Canarian islands of Lanzarote, Fuerteventura and El Hierro off the Atlantic coast of Africa. Their troops were gathered in Normandy, Gascony and were later reinforced by Castilian colonists.

Bethencourt took the title of King of the Canary Islands, as vassal to Henry III of Castile. In 1418, Jean's nephew Maciot de Bethencourt sold the rights to the islands to Enrique Pérez de Guzmán, 2nd Count de Niebla" en.wikipedia.org...

This is plausible , however if they were Normans, that would mean Christians and no longer Vikings per say, which could mean bad relations on encountering not even folks of one of the other Abrahamic religions but pagans , they would have had temper any religious fervour and play nice with the locals to present them with such gifts.
Pagan Vikings however would have more of a successful exchange, as one pagan to another...speculation off course.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter
Bear in mind that the date of arrival in Africa may be much later than the date of manufacture. Portuguese sea-voyagers are known to have gone right past the relevant coast.

In fact, come to think of it, even my own theory may be over-complicated. Perhaps the cup remained safely in England until it was taken on voyage by one of the sixteenth-century English traders mentioned in Hakluyt "Yes, I will buy three of your slaves. Will you take this nice cup in exchange?"

a reply to: Spider879

For sure and it's all speculation as to whom the Normans encountered when they ventured into Africa. There is always the possibility that they came into contact with previous groups of Vikings who lost that battle off North Africa and settled there. Much speculation where they ended up, who knows maybe Morocco.

"Of particular importance in this regard is the fact that medieval Muslim writers also refer to Vikings (Majūs) having raided along the North African coast in the mid-ninth century. For example, the Andalusi geographer Al-Bakrī in his Kitāb al-Masālik wa-al-Mamālik ('Book of Roads and Kingdoms'), completed c. 1068 but based on earlier materials, records the following:

Majūs [Vikings]—God curse them—landed at Nakūr [Nekor, Morocco], in the year 244 (858–859). They took the city, plundered it, and made its inhabitants slaves, except those who saved themselves by flight. Among their prisoners were Ama al-Raḥmān and Khanūla, daughters of Wakif ibn-Mu'tasim ibn-Ṣāliḥ. [The emir] Muḥammed ransomed them. The Majūs stayed eight days in Nakūr.
The same basic tale is recorded by a number of other writers too, including the tenth-century Andalusi historian Ibn al-Qūṭīya and the later authors Ibn Idhārī and Ibn Khaldūn, and a version also appears in the late ninth-century Christian Chronicle of Alfonso III, where it is related that the 'Northman pirates... sailed the sea and attacked Nekur, a city in Mauritania, and there they killed a vast number of Muslims.' Needless to say, the above is of considerable interest in the present context, and the reality of Viking activity in the region of Morocco is further supported by a recent analysis of bones of ancient mice recovered from the Portuguese island of Madeira, located off the coast of Morocco, which indicates that this island was probably visited by Vikings from Scandinavia/northern Germany in the tenth or early eleventh century, at least four centuries before the medieval Portuguese colonisation of the island." www.caitlingreen.org...

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Spider879
Might it have been captured?
In that period, there was no shortage of English contact with Spanish and Portuguese. Claiming the crown of Castile, John of Gaunt married his daughter to the king of Portugal. The "gift" could have been part of that occasion or something similar.
And it was exactly at that period that Portuguese trading/exploring ships were moving down the west coast of Africa. That could have been the second leg of the journey.

Could well have been captured Disraeli It's great to ponder on these things, the whole economies of that time in Ghana were pretty advanced, equal to the period in Europe in many ways. The Ashanti might have even been in Britain at the time and bought it in a market. Anything's possible if we think outside the box of the British education system

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: ufoorbhunter
Bear in mind that the date of arrival in Africa may be much later than the date of manufacture. Portuguese sea-voyagers are known to have gone right past the relevant coast.

In fact, come to think of it, even my own theory may be over-complicated. Perhaps the cup remained safely in England until it was taken on voyage by one of the sixteenth-century English traders mentioned in Hakluyt "Yes, I will buy three of your slaves. Will you take this nice cup in exchange?"

The prices set for slaves, would have been horses, firearms, cannons and manilla bars of Iron or copper, cloth was important too, it wasn't as haphazard as one might think, a great read on the subject is a book called A Fist Full Of Shells.by Toby Green

The Portuguese had arrived to trade on the Gold Coast around 1471. They came initially in dribs and drabs, poor, feverish and desperate. Enough of them had come to settlements such as Elmina in the decade since for Kwamena Ansa to form a very poor opinion of them. As he put it through his interpreters to the captain of the 1482 Portuguese fleet, Diogo de Azambuja, ‘the Christians who have come here until now have been very few, dirty, and base [pouca, suça e vil].’ It’s not hard to imagine them scratching the lice in their hair, their shirts torn and ragged, absolutely unimpressive compared with the carefully turned-out people they wanted to trade with.
Nevertheless the two sides met here in 1482. The formalities began. The Portuguese explained their desire to build the fortress, on payment of a large sum in cloth, basins and copper manillas.

I think the main problem people assume is that they think these artefacts, or whatever, get to where they are by one person. Whereas this object may have been traded innumerable times before it ended up where it did. Only if there was written evidence to show it was given by a medieval person to the now recipient.
Case in point, I have a coin that was minted in Antioch a thousand years before the medieval period, yet it ended up in the Midlands of the UK. We could all assume a Roman would have lost the coin when he was stationed here, but how many people and how many countries has it travelled through?

a reply to: crayzeed

That's an interesting thought. Just imagine how many hands have touched it. I love stuff like this.

a reply to: Rekrul
True , but keep in mind tho, that it wasn't just one Jug but three in all of various sizes , it was like a set , if it did passed through multiple hands, through traders over time and space, wouldn't we expect to have multiple dispersals.

a reply to: Spider879

What I like the most is discovering history. What else is out there for us to find?

These are some of the best threads on ATS.