Christians of ATS

Here's an old joke:

A Methodist and a Calvinist walk into a Western saloon.
The Methodist says, "I understand that you believe in stealing horses."
The Calvinist replies, "And I understand that you believe in falling from grace."
The Methodist then says, "No, I don't believe in falling from grace."
The Calvinist replies, "Neither do I believe in stealing horses."

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The majority of Roman Catholics are Roman Catholics for reasons other than that predatory priests are shielded. The majority of Southern Baptists are Southern Baptist for reasons other than that predatory youth pastors are shielded.

It seems to me that the RCC is here for the long haul, just as the SBC is. The decrease in SBC membership seems to be more as a result of over politicization, such as "If you vote ___, then you are against God", rather than over sexual scandals.

The last time I was in a Southern Baptist Church the song leader said, "Now here's a song that everyone must stand for." It was the U.S. National Anthem.

I remained seated and didn't sing the song. Isn't Christianity supposed to be for something other than a nationalist display?
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Now about that joke. Sure the Calvinist believed that it was possible for a Christian to steal a horse and still be saved, but that's not why he's a Christian. Sure, the Methodist believes that it is possible for a Christian to fall from grace and lose salvation, but that isn't why he's a Christian either.

I hope that clarifies things a bit.

For a religion that used to take a punch, and be fed to lions naked, could just put down the stones, before God throws one.

And it not even the Satanists fault.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: whereislogic

So are you denying JW,org are harbouring pedos?
A lot of talk but no substance

I am asking for a straight answer

You appear to have fallen for one of Satan's oldest tricks. And that is the dissemination of outright lies and slander. Jehovah's Witnesses do not tolerate sexual immorality. They practice what is known as shunning or disfellowshipping of unrepentant wrongdoers in the congregation as the Bible commands them to do. And policy for JW elders is to report cases of child abuse to the secular authorities. So you are outright wrong in your slander against them in this regards.

As I personally do not know you I cannot impune motives as to why you spread such slander, nor can I judge whether you do it knowingly or unknowingly. But it is not uncommon.

To answer your question you can see the following Watchtower Article that clearly explains the stance JWs take regarding child sex abuse under the subheading: "HANDLING INSTANCES OF SERIOUS WRONGDOING":

Love and Justice in the Face of Wickedness

(For more information on how Jehovah's Witnesses handle child sex abuse you can see the following: (www.jw.org...).

This is public information and also information that has been studied in all the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide. So your lies really don't fool JWs or people who do a real investigation into the matter.

You know what this reminds me of? Recently Jehovah's Witnesses have had their legal operations banned in Russia because of their so-called "extremism ." Jehovah's Witnesses of course are non-violent, and do not take part in politics or warfare.

In this recent update notice whom the Russian government is now attacking with their vicious lies!: (start @10:20).

2021 Governing Body Update #4

Notice how absurd the charges are against these elderly peaceful sisters as the government harass them with lies and viciously persecutes these older women. And see how shameful their conduct is. Much as the lying shameful conduct you are displaying. The spirit of viscous hatred toward truth is the same in each case. It is not because the persecuted are doing something wrong. Rather it is hatred for what is true and good and the spread of vicious lies that causes the opposers to take such a stance.

While some may be fooled by lying propaganda. When Jesus was on earth many people lied about him as well. He simply stated: "Wisdom is proved righteous by its works."-Matthew 11:18, 19.

a reply to: MidnightHawk

What, you are telling me to trust your pedo organisation over a Royal Commission?
www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au...

Typical JW tactic?
I understand you think you know because the leaders tell you what to believe but

JW tactic, overload information to confuse

Do you understand what a Royal Commission is, why do you place your faith in your leaders of your org?

Do you deny your org harbours pedo?

a reply to: Raggedyman

Please see reply here as your false accusations were already answered. If you are unable to read, unable to comprehend, or unable or unwilling to understand it that is on you. You seem to be old enough to be able to. Unless dementia has set in. In that case it probably wouldn't be much use explaining things to you.

In any event you have been given straight forward accurate and reliable direct answers to your queries. You don't need to ignore them and repeat yourself over and over.

Part of being a Christian is extending love. Even to those who misunderstand us, and treat us wrongly. In fact we are told to love those persecuting us. Imagine how the prison guards react in Russia when they abuse and mistreat the Jehovah's Witnesses, and in return they receive kindness and love. It is not something they are used to receiving. And it opens their eyes. And it may make some of them become ashamed of their conduct. And it even may convert some to the faith. In fact it has!

So it is in your case. No matter what your situation is, or how badly you want to disparage God's people let it be known that they extend their love to you as well. I sense that you have not received much of that and are probably unaware of how to give it. But you are a human same as all of us. And you were created with the need for love. Love is stronger than hate. It triumphs over all.

One day I have the hope that you too will learn to love and show love as God has shown us.

a reply to: MidnightHawk

Self policing has always been the problem. Whether its written or not, administrators will always try to maintain a visual appearance of cleanliness by sweeping all the dirt under the carpet. Even when it is not law, everyone should be morally obliged to report all complaints of sexual abuse of children to the police. The police are trained to investigate such claims.

Yes an moral man may be tainted by a false accusation. But an moaral man knows that a childs safety is of greater importance.

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: MidnightHawk

Self policing has always been the problem. Whether its written or not, administrators will always try to maintain a visual appearance of cleanliness by sweeping all the dirt under the carpet. Even when it is not law, everyone should be morally obliged to report all complaints of sexual abuse of children to the police. The police are trained to investigate such claims.

Yes an moral man may be tainted by a false accusation. But an moaral man knows that a childs safety is of greater importance.

Check the first link above exactly where I directed you. You'll see that is the official policy. I am guessing you either didn't read my post, or skipped over it so fast you didn't read it just like raggyman.

a reply to: MidnightHawk

Of cause I read it. If there is no witness and unless its obligated by law to report such crimes it will be investigated by the elders.

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: MidnightHawk

Of cause I read it. If there is no witness and unless its obligated by law to report such crimes it will be investigated by the elders.

Correct. The Christian congregation is not a secular authority. The disfellowshipping is done based on scriptural grounds. If there are laws that make it a crime and a need for it to be reported they report it. And they do not shield or hide the person from the gross shameful conduct they engaged in. And parents and children are encouraged to report to the police if something has happened as well.

I will give you the difference between how Jehovah's Witnesses deal with child sex abuse and say the Catholic Church. If a person is accused and there is evidence, if the person confesses, if there are two or three witnesses, and that would include more than one person that claims abuse, that would qualify as two witnesses, a judicial committee is formed. What is decided there a person can be disfellowshipped from the Christian congregation to keep it clean, to keep it safe, and to make the guilty person hopefully repent of his bad actions.

Under this criteria people like Bill Cosby who had what? dozens or more people accusing him of abuse would have been disfellowshipped if he was a Witness. There are people who still are in disbelief of what he did. In the Christian congregation two or three witnesses are enough to firmly establish something. Bill Cosby would have been found guilty with just two victims that came forward with testimony and he would have been dealt with in a swift manner, in a matter of days when the accusations came to light. Not years or decades, or not at all.

And the justice is swift. A judicial committee is held, usually within a few days. There is no delay in the process of action being taken. And the guilty person is removed from the congregation.

Let me share something with you. The FBI did a sting and found a Jehovah's Witness involved in child pornography. They approached Bethel where the computer was tracked to. They were allowed in, given access to all the information requested. The brother involved in the gross conduct was immediately disfellowshipped from the Christian congregation when it was uncovered what he was doing. And he was not shielded from the authorities. The JWs cooperated with everything, and the brother eventually went to prison.

The Catholic Church would have hidden the abuse, allowed the person to remain a member of the Catholic Church, and if a part of the clergy probably would have just shuffled him around so he could abuse more often. The authorities commented on how swift and coperative the JWs were in assisting them in their investigations.

a reply to: MidnightHawk

Thanks for explaining in detail. It looks like Jehovah's Witnesses is being proactive in stamping out sexual abuse which is good to hear. Other faiths and denominations need to step up for sure.

Helping those before they abuse is something that also needs to be addressed.

Thank You.

a reply to: Raggedyman

I mentioned "there's also no 'hiding' going on". Which also counts for "harbouring". These word choices are meant to give what MidnightHawk explained in detail a negative spin.

I also didn't see the same expressions used by the link you used in response to MidnightHawk.

a reply to: whereislogic

nltimes.nl...

The Jehovah's Witnesses in the Netherlands follow the international guidelines of the organization. Their own legal system is above that of international authorities. In the organization, male elders are the judges.

e-watchman.com...

“CHURCH officials hushed up a child sex scandal in their ranks and refused to co-operate with police.”

jwfacts.com...


Watchtower Child Abuse Settlements

Watchtower is facing and losing a rising number of court cases, due to its policies and protection of pedophiles within its congregations. This article discusses some prominent cases and the reasoning courts give for judgements against Watchtower.


www.classaction.com...
But, when victims reported abuse, nothing happened. Their abusers often remained in the congregation, going on to abuse even more children.

In addition to not turning over child sex abusers to the police, church elders also kept victims silent with harsh policies for assault accusations. Accusers were required to have two eye witnesses (one in addition to themselves) before the church would investigate. If they couldn't produce another witness, they were sometimes accused of providing a false accusation which in some cases was punishable by “dis-fellowshiping,” or excommunication, from the church.

But of course, you self governing body is above scrutiny
I can get more

newspunch.com...
A Jehovah’s Witness leader has been caught on camera protecting child abusers by instructing a group of church officials to destroy internal records that contain information about a pedophile ring operating in the church.

www.aawa.co...
Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. had actual knowledge that James Henderson was a sexual predator since at least 1964. Yet, for the better part of three decades, they appointed and re-appointed him to the positions of elder and ministerial servant.”

Do I go on?
Do you deny your organisation protects pedophiles
Really

I am not going to argue with you, just going to list the evidence that condemns your cult
Over and over, we have done this dance, you know my methods

jwvictims.org...
Jehovah’s Witnesses have a huge problem with pedophilia in their religion, as many victims who grew up in the organization will attest. Witnesses are now facing several lawsuits from one firm in the U.S. alone, and have settled many dozens more.


Great document
watchtowerdocuments.org...

The goal of this project was to shine a bright light on the secret policies and procedures utilized by Jehovah’s Witness leaders to manage victims’ accusations of sexual abuse by Witness molesters.

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: MidnightHawk

Thanks for explaining in detail. It looks like Jehovah's Witnesses is being proactive in stamping out sexual abuse which is good to hear. Other faiths and denominations need to step up for sure.

Helping those before they abuse is something that also needs to be addressed.

Thank You.

Proactive, on paper and in front of the media
Within, it’s a cesspool and most of those in their number are ignorant and lied to
Worse, when shown information, the information is ignored like here, why because of the insidious cult it is, the members only ever follow strict JW rules that don’t allow them to read anything that reflects badly on their community or question policy, ever

a reply to: MidnightHawk

www.pbs.org...

In San Francisco, a woman is suing the Jehovah's Witnesses for failing to protect her from a known child abuser when she was a child. The Center for Investigative Reporting has shed light on accusations that religious leaders led a cover-up of child sex abuse. Special correspondent Trey Bundy of the CIR’s Reveal reports on how the organization is using the first amendment to fight these charges.


neonnettle.com...
A Jehovah's Witnesses official has blown the whistle to reveal that the religion covers-up reports of child abuse by destroying records as the religion's elders believe that Satan will use the evidence against them.


Want to talk about “love” Christian love is about protecting victims and the abused
Your church organisation has no love, it’s a nest of vipers
Clean it up, even the Catholic Church cleaned most of their issues up, stopped denying and defending and lying, unlike your organisation

Any individual still within jw,org is a passive supporter of child abuse and there is so much evidence to that fact, only a peon would deny it

originally posted by: MidnightHawk

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: MidnightHawk

Self policing has always been the problem. Whether its written or not, administrators will always try to maintain a visual appearance of cleanliness by sweeping all the dirt under the carpet. Even when it is not law, everyone should be morally obliged to report all complaints of sexual abuse of children to the police. The police are trained to investigate such claims.

Yes an moral man may be tainted by a false accusation. But an moaral man knows that a childs safety is of greater importance.

Check the first link above exactly where I directed you. You'll see that is the official policy. I am guessing you either didn't read my post, or skipped over it so fast you didn't read it just like raggyman.

All the evidence suggests your own rulers actively ignore and deny official policy to protect themselves
If you can’t see that, you are no better than the Catholics were, no different, not capable of questioning your corrupt leadership.

Show me the rules and I will show you the evidence that proves that your organisation is a nest of pedos being protected


And that’s why I disagree with the op, secular society should judge the churches, those who lead, those in charge, because of ignorance like yours

a reply to: Raggedyman

I read through the findings report from your link. One thing that stands out, JW does appear to maintain records of all complaints even against elders. Something many organizations don't do (keep paper trails). So there isn't an obvious attempt to protect members from further scrutiny.

In one case a young girl went to the elders complaining of sexual abuse from her father. The result ending in a JW verdict that couldn't prove guilt. When the girl reached maturity she left JW and took her father to court. The court decision resulted in a hung jury. It took two more court cases to convict the father who ended up serving 3 years prison. If judicial system has difficulty in proving guilt. Then what hope has three untrained elders got.

Statistically 1 in 3 girls and 1 in 6 boys are sexually abused before they reach the age of 18, So society itself is the cesspool. It would not surprize if sexual abuse in JW is far lower than the average. I would hope that would be the case for all religions.

a reply to: glend

So society itself is the cesspool. It would not surprize if sexual abuse in JW is far lower than the average. I would hope that would be the case for all religions.

Even the Boy Scouts of America.
Boy Scouts bankruptcy plans anger some, welcomed by others.

“This is the tip of the iceberg,” said lawyer Ken Rothweiler, whose firm says it’s representing more than 16,000 survivors. "Now we go after the next step and see what happens with the insurers."

The BSA sought bankruptcy protection in February 2020, moving to halt thousands of lawsuits by men who were molested as youngsters decades ago by scoutmasters or other leaders. The filing was intended to try to reach a global resolution of abuse claims and create a compensation fund.

I think clicking so many links about abuse has corrupted my Internet Cache cookies or something. That Boy Scouts article popped up as a result.

Time to delete cookies or something.

a reply to: Raggedyman

And that’s why I disagree with the op, secular society should judge the churches, those who lead, those in charge,

The U.S. doesn't have a very good track record on busting sects (sometimes called cults). It took decades before Tony Alamo was convicted of 10 child rapes.

A couple of situations concerning Christian boarding schools for at risk youths have been discussed on ATS in the last 3 years or so. ATS members almost unanimously sided with the creeps running the unaccredited schools. Why? Well freedom of religion in the U.S. Freedom of parents to send their kids off to these institutions. None of the business of the State.

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When it comes to freedom of conscience issues, I am of the firm opinion that that should be applied as an individual matter. Not an institutional matter. The individuals rights should always take precedent over the institution.

The institutions have the money, and the lawyers, and the political clout.

My opinions.

a reply to: pthena

Thanks pthena. Not sure how these associations will be able to safeguard children unless they demand full parental supervision at all times.

Think google and co keeps track of what we search of all the time. So may not be cookies.

Having spent nearly 30 years studying theology (yeah, I'm a nerd. Its fun for me), I can tell you all about the similarities of religions all over the world. I suppose the final line of it all is this: It doesn't really matter what you believe, just believe in something. You can't break down that belief.

Take care of yourself and others. Be kind. Hail Satan. Whatever.