'Fentanyl has changed the whole landscape': San Francisco faces worst drug epidemic ever

originally posted by: AaarghZombies

originally posted by: Magnivea
a reply to: AaarghZombies

That is wholly untrue. Garage chemists in China are responsible for AT LEAST the same amount (3500lb/yr) that is made and sold legally. That much has been known for 3-4 years. They used to be as bad with homemade alprazolam but that's been cracked down on by the Chinese government for whatever reason while fentanyl production seems to be almost promoted.

Source, please.

On the other hand, it's not Chinese dealing it on the streets.

They don't have to.

The cartels are always willing to make that money; same with the gangs.

Why should China have to directly get their hands dirty? They know it weakens the US at a several step remove that can't easily be traced directly back to them. They get what they want through a policy of benign neglect.

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

Most alcoholics and drugs addicts will tell you, "they don't care". The whole reason why so many them do drugs in the first place. They don't want to care.

One could extrapolate on this topic for ages. That could maybe make me draw back my last opinion in this thread of opening the eyes of young children to the effects of drugs. Scare em to much and maybe it would open their eyes to the fact that their lives will likely be a shambles by the time they hit puberty. I'm at a loss.

originally posted by: xuenchen
a reply to: AaarghZombies

Interesting isn't it.

Clever Chaos takes the ribbon 👀

Sad, more like.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: AaarghZombies

originally posted by: Magnivea
a reply to: AaarghZombies

That is wholly untrue. Garage chemists in China are responsible for AT LEAST the same amount (3500lb/yr) that is made and sold legally. That much has been known for 3-4 years. They used to be as bad with homemade alprazolam but that's been cracked down on by the Chinese government for whatever reason while fentanyl production seems to be almost promoted.

Source, please.

On the other hand, it's not Chinese dealing it on the streets.

They don't have to.

The cartels are always willing to make that money; same with the gangs.

Why should China have to directly get their hands dirty? They know it weakens the US at a several step remove that can't easily be traced directly back to them. They get what they want through a policy of benign neglect.

China has a reputation for manufacturing fake drugs, and it used to be a big supplier of the pre-cursor ingredients for meth, but it was often more the case of companies simply shipping goods to whoever wanted them rather than knowingly participating in the drugs trade.

In China knowingly manufacturing fentanyl for use in the illegal drugs trade is considered to be a "Crime against Public Order". This might not sound like something very serious, but it's one of the highest categories of felony, and it's a capitol offense.

The Chinese government might be a lot of things, but a bystander in the drugs trade isn't one of them. People who manufacture drugs are put up against a wall and shot.

Beijing stamps down on companies that produce drugs for consumption overseas because of the fear that these companies will start selling domestically. They're much harder on dealers, cookers and addicts than the US. Selling fentanyl to a cartel would get you shot, and possibly your family and friends as well. It's a high risk activity, and there are much better ways to make that kind of money without that kind of risk.

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

Most alcoholics and drugs addicts will tell you, "they don't care". The whole reason why so many them do drugs in the first place. They don't want to care.

One could extrapolate on this topic for ages. That could maybe make me draw back my last opinion in this thread of opening the eyes of young children to the effects of drugs. Scare em to much and maybe it would open their eyes to the fact that their lives will likely be a shambles by the time they hit puberty. I'm at a loss.

With things like fentanyl the addicts have often hit rock bottom already and are past caring. They don't think that the can go much lower.

It may sound absolutely crazy at first, but the only way to solve this problem is to completely legalize real opiates and make them free.

No need for anyone to buy fentenyl , which would destroy the drug trade for it, as well as for opiates.

Sure, there would be a surge of new addictions but over time, opiate use would dwindle back. At least people will not be dying like flies, and this is also the only way to remove the drug trafficking for any of this stuff.

It is a roots cause approach. Ugly as it is, there will always be a fentenyl problem unless you can destroy the need for it.

a reply to: AaarghZombies

I"m not so sure that Edward G Robinson's solution in Soylent Green would be a bad thing. If you don't know the film, old people could take themselves to a huge theater with nice young people to escort them to a very pleasant room where they could have a nice meal and go to sleep watching fond memories from their past on a dome filled screen.

I wonder if there were emporiums with profound sense stimulation tech that people could go to for their final fix. Hook ups to the best tech and a ''trip'' to end all trips on a slow slow drip, how many washed out and hopeless people would go for that quick option rather than the slow death that they face. But not caring would also mean that even that decision would be meaningless.

a reply to: AaarghZombies

Source for what? Do a damned Google search. Or go to one of the big, bad darknet markets. Every last listing for fentanyl acknowledges that it's not big laboratory made, it's sourced from "unknown producers" in China, usually with a purity test report. Yes, junkies can be discerning as well.

Here, for the "I can take the time to comment but if you disagree with me I can't be bothered to search for myself" crowd:

For Buemi, the China connection was hardly a surprise. According to the State Department, China has between 160,000 and 400,000 chemical companies operating legally, illegally or somewhere in between — an expansive estimate that reflects both the vastness of the industry and the scarcity of the information available. Some of these facilities manufacture tons of chemicals every week, or more than a million pills per day. In 2016, the industry made up 3 percent of China’s national economy, with over $100 billion in profits annually. Most of these companies are members of the vast pharmaceutical underclass, pumping out huge quantities of inexpensive generic drugs and pharmaceutical ingredients. It’s a low-cost, low-profit business, but the barriers to entry are minimal, and the market is immense: The basic pharmaceutical ingredients that China produces are needed by more advanced drug companies everywhere in the world — including the United States — for synthesis into more complex and profitable medicines.

First search result.

I'm also in the NorthEast, and what we've been seeing here for about ten years is a tolerance to addicts that encourages them to try harder drugs.

The heroin was a huge problem here- to the point that the junkies and addicts were venturing out from down town to steal from the suburbs and carry their wares back towards down town- stopping at the pawn shops along the way.
So the wicked smaht gub'ment said... lets help these people!
They decided to help by providing "free" (read: my tax dollars pay for them) clean needles, bandages, and other things used to inject heroin. They even went so far to pay people "in the know" to ride bicycles from tent village to hobo jungle to distribute these things.
Of course, those same people were the ones selling the heroin. Buy a hit- get a free clean needle!

The campaign was a huge success in really making the junkies comfortable with their lifestyle.

Then the Fentanyl started flooding in. Some people switched for that stronger high- some people switched to save money... but most switched because the dealers found out they could cut their heroin with just about anything and just bump up the potency for cheap by adding a touch of this new stuff.

We've seen several decent size busts coming from the northwoods of maine, where 3-4 junkies get together and head for Boston, where they can sell their home made garbage for big bucks. IIRC we've seen enough of the stuff to give a lethal dose to 100,000 people just in two busts here in my small town alone in the last year... both junkies from further north heading for I-95.
I'm not sure if they're importing it pre-made somehow, or importing the chems needed to make it themselves... but there's no shortage of the stuff coming from up my way.

a reply to: ElGoobero

hopefully the progressives are waking up to the fact that 'tolerance' of drug use is destructive, to users as well as neighbors.

Who cares? It's San Francisco.

a reply to: ElGoobero

hopefully the progressives are waking up to the fact that 'tolerance' of drug use is destructive, to users as well as neighbors.

Who cares? It's San Francisco.

originally posted by: 727Sky
... When I hear of drugs I always think of natural selection... Yep rather cold hearted but you wanna play sooner or later you are going to pay.

Exactly my thought. The phrase societal darwinism came to mind.

This is what ubiquitous warning labels have gotten us; a society chock full of friggin' idiots. Worse thing about this situation is not the state of the "poor addicts; it's the ultimate burden on hardworking taxpayers who don't make stupid life decisions.
:

a reply to: charlyv
I totally agree. It's exactly the same as prostitution. They should be made legal, then they could be monitored and controlled. The drugs could be controlled for purity and strength etc, but the biggest thing is taking it out of the hands of criminals.

In answer to Magnivea:- sourced from unknown producers in China, usually with a purity test report???? Yes, junkies can be discerning too ??? Where did you get that silly bit of nugget from. Junkies don't give a flying fu## about a purity test, they accept it as is. The purity test is for the supplier for him to decide if he wants to cut it or not.

This may sound bad but I cannot understand pushers supplying strong stuff that can kill because they are killing their golden gooses. Once an addict is dead that's one less customer they can sell to.

originally posted by: TonyS
a reply to: ElGoobero

hopefully the progressives are waking up to the fact that 'tolerance' of drug use is destructive, to users as well as neighbors.

Who cares? It's San Francisco.

To be fair, its pretty much every major city, coast to coast.

California is just more readily willing to cry about problems they created instead of trying to fix them.

a reply to: ElGoobero
I'm all about personal choice. If someone wants to play the risky game with fentanyl, then who am I to stand in their way?

originally posted by: lordcomac
California is just more readily willing to cry about problems they created instead of trying to fix them.

California is just more readily willing to throw money at the symptoms of the problems they created instead of trying to fix them.

I'm a hard libertarian when it comes to personal choices good or bad and so though I believe in having social networks to help these people I'm more incline to say have fun whether you die or not. If you want help I'll help, but we all need to get back to the point to understand that personal choices is what effects us 99% of the time, not Trump or Biden as example.

I drink bourbon and smoke cigars, so what is the difference, its my choice as would be if I choose to drink brake fluid instead. Go back 100 years and if you didn't truly work for your life no one else would and you died. When I say work I don't just mean a job, but to truly work hard to live...

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
Forgive me for being naïve, and I am when it comes to drug use, but I thought fentanyl was used as an anesthetic, not as a narcotic. So, how is it addictive?

Anything close to opiod has the potential to addict. There are both chemical dependencies and psychological dependencies too. Something that isn't chemically addictive can still create a powerful psychological addiction that functions almost identically.

My hypothesis on the success of 12-step programs is that those who succeed almost always transfer the psychological need to something else, say faith, which is a component of many 12-step programs. But really, former addicts can transfer that psychological component to lots of things so long as whatever it is is powerful enough to hold their fascination over drugs.

It's true, been clean around 20 years, I definitely put the energy into hobbies..intensely I do have the "addictive" personality..I'm sure it(hobbies) keeps me somewhat grounded. Hobbies or not though, no going back to that life.

a reply to: AaarghZombies
The Chinese government is only tough on drugs with their own citizens. As long as the drugs are leaving the country they don't have a problem with it. They are making tax dollars off of the American addicts so it's a win/win for them. Have you noticed China doesn't have a fentanyl problem comparable to the U.S.?

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
a reply to: ElGoobero

I"m in favor of a drug intensive education in Kindergarden. Give those 5 year olds a solid week of videos showing the effects of drugs on peoples lives and health. Push it hard. Add into that some of these commercial type videos of people who have to talk through a hole in their throats and some with their jaws deformed from smoking ciggies . Pound it in hard so that those images stand out in their brains instead of a hand full of dancing powder puffs singing ''don't do drugs don't do drugs''.
Scare the bejezzus out of em.

That said El, blaming the ''progressives'' I think is a bit short of the mark. Where are the conservative bills in congress over the last say, 20 years that would address the severity of our drug problem. I don't see it as a partisan problem.

You just described the 90's D.A.R.E program.

it didn't do jack # for the kids. I still picked up smokes, drink now and then, and partake in Legal Rec. Those videos never scared me, whole different thing than watching a birth video in Sex Ed -- that kept MY legs shut for my entire teen years stretch. Not even kidding, birth vids work. Even the happiest mother will scream like some unholy creature from the netherworld. The D.A.R.E vids conflicted with what kids knew already from observing relatives (potheads, mostly) and did the exact opposite of what the D.A.R.E instructors wanted -- we toked up.

Nagging actually doesn't work, it just makes us WANT to do the opposite, to piss off the neo-teetotalers.