Sumerians show why a natural interpretation of evolution is false

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: Snarl
Such acute logical thinking.

Forgive. Some folks need to be bludgeoned by the obvious.

Why don't you try philosophy. Or better yet, how about reading read textbooks and research papers.

No thanks. My degrees in Chemistry, Biology, Microbiology and Virology have me well-covered (but, not to be confused with indoctrinated). For backup, I wield degrees in History and Theology. Icing on the cake: I've met Him.

Idiot.

I'll reserve my name calling for later.

a reply to: Snarl

With all that paper hanging on the wall you should have no trouble reviewing 500 journals and 200,000 research papers in biological evolution. Pick out a few and prove they're wrong.

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: Snarl

With all that paper hanging on the wall ...

The science degrees came early. Maybe too early to really appreciate them. The topic of Evolution came up in almost every course (understand this was back in the mid 70s).

The professor I admired the most, would absolutely crush any graduate student who 'made believe' Evolution had anything to do with science. "Mutation and Evolution aren't even spelled the same," is how he would begin. Then he'd fix 'em with a falcon-like stare and tell 'em, "You had better be ready to deal with the consequences of choosing your terms poorly."

Now, as I turn grayer and my skin turns to paper, I give no credit to education. Darwin has passed on and so has my old professor. One day soon I will too. Let's hope the argument continues to thrive. It's outlived a lot of good men.

a reply to: Snarl

You obviously have an opinion about evolutionary science or you wouldn't be agreeing with Cooperton. If your opinion is based on "old" science, perhaps you should read some of the research articles in biological evolution journals from the past 10 years. It's hard to have an opinion in science when you can't understand how it's done.

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: Snarl

You obviously have an opinion about evolutionary science or you wouldn't be agreeing with Cooperton. If your opinion is based on "old" science, perhaps you should read some of the research articles in biological evolution journals from the past 10 years.

Don't waste your time snarl, there still hasn't been one example of a population of organisms evolving since you were in school. Despite countless generations of trying to artificially select fruit flies in the lab, they still remain fruit flies. Its settled science at this point - organisms adapt, but they cannot evolve into something else.

Sumerian astrology tablets make up the first historical record of astrology. The Sumerians gave the world astrology.

In Hinduism its said that the sage Bhrigu brought knowledge of Astrology to man. He lived in period of manu. Which is india's flood period (aka Noah). The sunken Indian city of Dwarka, now 131 feet below the ocean, is over 9500+ years old. So vedic knowledge could have been orally transmitted from 8000BC

So your assertion that knowledge appeared at once is based on the flawed assumption. That knowledge and the recording of that knowledge in clay, occurred during same time period by a single society. The sumerians may have adopted many cultural beliefs from around the world and wrote of them in their clay tablets. The clay tablets being the internet of that time period.

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: neoholographic
What you see as an explosion of knowledge is more likely missing pieces of history.

I remember being surprised to learn that were man's presence on the planet to be reduced to a few thousand, the population would likely rebound. In the thousand years that followed, nearly all traces of our civilization would erode to a point unrecognizable by a man transported those thousand years in a second. Traces of radioactivity, China's wall, the Pyramids ... all would remain ... and with the right equipment, some paths we traveled might also be seen.

"Absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence."

Also, as has been stated already in this thread, when humans have time to think about concepts beyond daily survival, we can be quite creative and innovative, and in a relatively short amount of time.

What can happen during the span of one's life is astonishing. You've just got to get old enough to appreciate it. -chuckle

I don't think there can be much argument at this point that evolution has merit, but as with all scientific study, evolution theory will also undergo changes as we understand more. It is not a finished science and neither is our current perception of the archaeological record.

Sometimes, back in the day, we'd ridicule one another over our beliefs while sampling quantities of alcoholic beverages and packs of cigarettes. And sometimes we'd wonder at how life seems to almost end, but then re-flourishes in a fresh array ... suddenly and with no clear explanation ... other than to maybe re-fill the void.

I guess other things in life are more easily obtained ... and I am as guilty as most for reaching to the lower hanging fruit.

There is no evidence of astrology in Sumer. Astrology was invented by the Babylonians, it would appear. The OP quoted an astrology website whose author apparently didn't know the difference between Sumer and Babylonia.

At least he didn't quote Sitchin though.

Harte

a reply to: neoholographic

You have to understand that there is evolution and then there is Evolution. The origin of species as Darwin shows versus what schools teach Darwin said..

originally posted by: neoholographic
I have shown in other threads why a natural interpretation of evolution is a fantasy. This is just one more reason why.

There's no evidence that modern civilization evolved. Homo Sapians that are very close to us have been around for 200,000 years. Some say it may go back to 400,000 years.

Modern civilization just happened. It just popped up out of nowhere.

We went from hunter gatherers to doing astrology, advanced mathematics, literature, political laws and more. Where's the evidence that shows than any of this evolved over time?

They went from living in caves and huts to building pyramid structures and great buildings. Here's more about the Sumerians.

Sumerian astrology tablets make up the first historical record of astrology. The Sumerians gave the world astrology. They are literally the oldest astrological documents. They named many of the constellations and defined the nature of numerous bodies in the solar system. The Sumerians taught the Babylonians astrology. Ptolemy and others then learned from the Babylonians. And we learned from them.

The Sumerians were not only advanced in astrology, but in all other aspects of culture as well. They produced great literature, their laws were as benign as British common law (C. Leonard Wolley, The Sumerians, New York: W.W. Norton, 1965, Pages 90-122), and their mathematics were only improved upon by the brilliant Greeks.

www.historicalastrology.com...

Are you saying for 195,000 years homo sapiens didn't write and then poof, we wrote down everything and built a modern civilization?

It makes no sense. It defies logic and reason.

There had to have been an advanced civilization that taught them these things. It sounds like someone ate off of the tree of knowledge.

We went from drawing animals on cave walls:

To astrology, literature and mathematics:

Again, it makes no sense. We went from this:

To this:

We went from living in caves and building huts to this:

It's obvious that there was an explosion of knowledge that happened almost instantly.

This is yet another blow to the fantasy that is a natural interpretation of evolution.

This makes so much sense. I have wondered about this. It's like one day people started wanting jobs to make money, building large buildings, dressing up to go to social events, paying taxes, having governments and they started to talk about gods from the sky who taught them these things.

More like one day people started writing about things.

And Sumer didn't actually have any astrology. That was Babylonia.

Harte

originally posted by: Harte
More like one day people started writing about things.

And Sumer didn't actually have any astrology. That was Babylonia.

Harte

The Sumerian's epic of gilgamesh makes specific references to astronomical precession. They talk about the slaying of the bull, which means the end of the age of Taurus. This coincides with the biblical timeline for the great flood that the epic of Gilgamesh refers to. The ancients used the stars as references to timelines

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Harte
More like one day people started writing about things.

And Sumer didn't actually have any astrology. That was Babylonia.

Harte

The Sumerian's epic of gilgamesh makes specific references to astronomical precession. They talk about the slaying of the bull, which means the end of the age of Taurus. This coincides with the biblical timeline for the great flood that the epic of Gilgamesh refers to. The ancients used the stars as references to timelines

Harte said astrology. You seem to be referring to astronomy.

Simply making mention of names of constellations when describing how the stars positions may change relative to the sun (i.e., precession) is not astrology, but just a way to describe the sky astronomical.

originally posted by: Harte
More like one day people started writing about things.

And Sumer didn't actually have any astrology. That was Babylonia.

Harte

This is just wrong. Here's some quotes.

The Babylonians and their predecessors, the Sumerians, also believed in a plurality of heavens and earths. This idea dates back to Sumerian incantations of the 2nd millennium BCE, which refers to there being seven heavens and seven earths, linked possibly chronologically to the creation by seven generations of gods.

en.wikipedia.org...

Who were the first astronomers?

The first astronomers were the Sumerians, who mapped the stars into sets of constellations, many of which survived in the zodiac and were also recognized by the ancient Greeks. They were also aware of the five planets visible to the naked eye, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn, and also followed the movement of the stars.

www.idesign.wiki...

Who Were the Ancient Sumerians?

Sumer was humanity's first great civilization. Even in today’s society you can still find traces of Sumerian inventions in agriculture, language, mathematics, religion and astronomy.

It goes on to say:

And the Babylonians, who created the first star maps, seem to have inherited some of their knowledge of astronomy from the Sumerians as well. The Babylonian people had two sets of constellations — one for tracking farming dates and another to recognize the gods. The latter was passed onto us today thanks to the Greeks and formed the foundations for the 12 zodiac constellations. And the star names that they used seem to date back to the Sumerian people, implying this ancient civilization had a seriously sophisticated knowledge of much more than the Earth below their feet.

www.discovermagazine.com...

This is the point. A modern civilization pops up about 10,000 years ago and they pass information to Babylon and Babylon passes information to the next modern civilization. There's no modern civilization that passed information to the Sumerians. They say the learned from the gods.

The Sumerians were among the first astronomers, mapping the stars into sets of constellations, many of which survived in the zodiac and were also recognized by the ancient Greeks. They were also aware of the five planets that are visible to the naked eye.

www.crystalinks.com...

Again, where did this burst of knowledge come from? You see in subsequent civilizations, the building of knowledge based on knowledge from the previous generation.

There's no civilization prior to the Sumerians that they used to build their knowledge on. They tell you were they got their knowledge. They say they learned from the gods. Here's more:

Sumer was an ancient civilization founded in the Mesopotamia region of the Fertile Crescent situated between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Known for their innovations in language, governance, architecture and more, Sumerians are considered the creators of civilization as modern humans understand it. Their control of the region lasted for short of 2,000 years before the Babylonians took charge in 2004 B.C.

Where did this knowledge come from? There's not a shred of evidence this evolved in any way, shape or form.

The Sumerian language is the oldest linguistic record. It first appeared in archaeological records around 3100 B.C. and dominated Mesopotamia for the next thousand years. It was mostly replaced by Akkadian around 2000 B.C. but held on as a written language in cuneiform for another 2,000 years.

Cuneiform, which is used in pictographic tablets, appeared as far back as 4000 B.C., but was later adapted into Akkadian, and expanded even further outside of Mesopotamia beginning in 3000 B.C.

Where did this knowledge come? Why did they all of a sudden want to have a linguistic record on tablets? Why did they want to start keeping track of their history and their lives in such a modern linguistic way?

Architecture on a grand scale is generally credited to have begun under the Sumerians, with religious structures dating back to 3400 B.C., although it appears that the basics of the structures began in the Ubaid period as far back as 5200 B.C. and were improved upon through the centuries.

Homes were made from mud bricks or bundled marsh reeds. The buildings are noted for their arched doorways and flat roofs. Elaborate construction, such as terra cotta ornamentation with bronze accents, complicated mosaics, imposing brick columns and sophisticated mural paintings all reveal the society’s technical sophistication.

Where did this knowledge come from? All of a sudden, their building homeswith arched doorways while writing down their history and keepting track of their lives in a modern way? Where's the evolution?

Sculpture was used mainly to adorn temples and offer some of the earliest examples of human artists seeking to achieve some form of naturalism in their figures. Facing a scarcity of stone, Sumerians made leaps in metal-casting for their sculpture work, though relief carving in stone was a popular art form.

We went from isolated hominids to one civilization that dominated other hominids and the globe and built a modern civilization with knowledge they say came from the gods. There's no evidence of evolution. There's no evidence of the Sumerians building modern civilization based on knowledge from a previous civilization.

Sumerians had a system of medicine that was based in magic and herbalism, but they were also familiar with processes of removing chemical parts from natural substances. They are considered to have had an advanced knowledge of anatomy, and surgical instruments have been found in archeological sites.

One of the Sumerians greatest advances was in the area of hydraulic engineering. Early in their history they created a system of ditches to control flooding, and were also the inventors of irrigation, harnessing the power of the Tigris and Euphrates for farming. Canals were consistently maintained from dynasty to dynasty. Their skill at engineering and architecture both point to the sophistication of their understanding of math.

These quotes came from this site: www.history.com...

Again, no evolution or anything natural needed or can explain this sudden burst of knowledge. They tell you exactly where they got their knowledge from. We can see traces of Sumerians civilization in the world today. Again, this is what happens as knowledge is passed down from civilization to civilization. This knowledge can be traced back to the Sumerians 10,000 short years ago with no evolution of this knowledge in any natural way from a previous civilization.

a reply to: neoholographic
It's apparent that you don't know the meaning of the word "astrology."

You are wrong. Just wrong.
Your own quote proves it - and you didn't even notice that.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

Sometimes I wonder if pseudoskeptics are in a bizarro world where up is down.

It's like you read my post and said, forget it, just deny the obvious truth.

This is just another nail in the coffin of a natural interpretation of evolution.

Where did this burst of knowledge come from? All of a sudden, a civilization wants to write down these stories on how the gods gave them this knowledge.

Where did their language come from? Why did they form Priesthoods? Why did they start giving people bill of sales? When you look, Babylon was influence by the Sumerians but you can't find any evidence of the civilation that influenced the Sumerians and how their knowledge evolved in any way. They just showed up out of nowhere and built a modern civilization.

The origin of the Sumerians is uncertain. They apparently came from the south through the Persian Gulf. Their literature speaks of their homeland being Dilmun, which could have been one of the islands in the Persian Gulf such as Bahrain. But no ruins comparable in age and complexity to those of Sumer have been found in the proposed locations of Dilmun. However the balance of the evidence is that Dilmun was the island of Bahrain.

The Sumerians apparently had practiced trading in their original homeland. The frequency of animal beings in the pantheon of their gods suggests some previous pastoral history. The Sumerian language is of no help in identifying their origins because it appears to be unrelated to any other language in the world. It is an agglutinating language like Turkish, Hungarian, Finnish and Inuit (Eskimo); i.e., statements are constructed by adding prefixes and suffixes onto the core word.

Many technical innovations are attributed to the Sumerians.

www.sjsu.edu...

Let me repeat:

The Sumerian language is of no help in identifying their origins because it appears to be unrelated to any other language in the world.

Again, this destroys a natural interpretation of evolution alongside other things. Older civilizations influence future civilizations:

The Sumerian civilization influenced other civilization, notably that of Babylon to the north. Egypt was also influenced by the Sumerians. Upper Egypt would have been influenced through the sea routes from the Persian Gulf to the Red Sea. Lower Egypt could have had contact with the Sumerians by that same route or by way of the overland route along the coast of the eastern Mediterranean.

www.sjsu.edu...

This civilization shows up and develops writing, starts writing about the gods giving them knowledge, building huge buildings, forming governments, knowing about math, astronomy and anatomy and more.

originally posted by: neoholographic

originally posted by: Harte
More like one day people started writing about things.

And Sumer didn't actually have any astrology. That was Babylonia.

Harte

This is just wrong. Here's some quotes.

The Babylonians and their predecessors, the Sumerians, also believed in a plurality of heavens and earths. This idea dates back to Sumerian incantations of the 2nd millennium BCE, which refers to there being seven heavens and seven earths, linked possibly chronologically to the creation by seven generations of gods.

en.wikipedia.org...

Who were the first astronomers?

The first astronomers were the Sumerians, who mapped the stars into sets of constellations, many of which survived in the zodiac and were also recognized by the ancient Greeks. They were also aware of the five planets visible to the naked eye, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn, and also followed the movement of the stars.

www.idesign.wiki...

Like cooperton. you seem to be confusing astronomy with astrology. Astronomy is the study of celestial bodies, including their movements. Astrology, on the other hand, is the belief that the movement of those bodies can have a profound influence on human nature an human history.

Nobody (i.e., Harte) is disputing that the Sumerians were good astronomers. However, that does not mean they practiced astrology. From what scholars can tell, astrology stated with the Babylonians, which came after the Sumerians.

"Babylonian astrology is the earliest recorded organized system of astrology, arising in the 2nd millennium BC. There is speculation that astrology of some form appeared in the Sumerian period in the 3rd millennium BC, but the isolated references to ancient celestial omens dated to this period are not considered sufficient evidence to demonstrate an integrated theory of astrology. The history of scholarly celestial divination is therefore generally reported to begin with late Old Babylonian texts (c. 1800 BC), continuing through the Middle Babylonian and Middle Assyrian periods (c. 1200 BC).

en.wikipedia.org...


"The Sumerians in Mesopotamia—a historical region of Western Asia—were the first to start noting the movements of the planets and stars. In around 3000 BCE, they recorded and identified the prominent constellations and patterns. Within Mesopotamia, the Babylonians (also known as the Chaldeans) became the first great astronomers. Continuing on from the Sumerians’ research, the Babylonians created the first zodiac wheel.

At around the end of the 5th century BCE, Babylonian astronomers divided the ecliptic into 12 equal “signs,” that correspond to the 12 months of the year at 30 days each. Each sign contained 30° of celestial longitude, creating the first known celestial coordinate system. Each segment was often identified by the name of an animal. The Greeks later provided the term for the zodiac when they described it as the zodiakos kyklos, aka “animal circle.”

mymodernmet.com...

edit on 2/10/2021 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)

originally posted by: neoholographic
a reply to: Harte

Sometimes I wonder if pseudoskeptics are in a bizarro world where up is down.

It's not surprising that you wonder - about a lot of things - since you can't comprehend what you read (assuming you do read.)

originally posted by: neoholographicIt's like you read my post and said, forget it, just deny the obvious truth.

Nowhere in your post do you provide even a glimmer of evidence for Sumerian Astrology. And you don't even realize this fact.

originally posted by: neoholographicThis is just another nail in the coffin of a natural interpretation of evolution.

More evidence that you can't comprehend what you read.

originally posted by: neoholographicWhere did this burst of knowledge come from? All of a sudden, a civilization wants to write down these stories on how the gods gave them this knowledge.

Writing appeared. THAT was the "burst." How in hell is anyone supposed to know exactly what was known before said knowledge could be recorded?
Not that this has a single thing to do with astrology.

originally posted by: neoholographicWhere did their language come from? Why did they form Priesthoods? Why did they start giving people bill of sales? When you look, Babylon was influence by the Sumerians but you can't find any evidence of the civilation that influenced the Sumerians and how their knowledge evolved in any way. They just showed up out of nowhere and built a modern civilization.

Do you purposefully keep yourself ignorant of the known archaeology of the region, just so you can hold this position?

originally posted by: neoholographicThe origin of the Sumerians is uncertain. They apparently came from the south through the Persian Gulf. Their literature speaks of their homeland being Dilmun, which could have been one of the islands in the Persian Gulf such as Bahrain. But no ruins comparable in age and complexity to those of Sumer have been found in the proposed locations of Dilmun. However the balance of the evidence is that Dilmun was the island of Bahrain.

"Their literature speaks of" Dilmun being the site of the creation of the human race, and the birthplace of several gods in their pantheon - as well as being the location of Paradise. It does NOT speak of Dilmun being the homeland from which Sumerians came into Sumer.
The fact that WE don't know the location of Dilmun today is meaningless in this context. Dilmun is known to have existed - it was conquered and ruled by the Assyrians as recently as 1500 BC. The Assyrians could write too - and they wrote about this.

originally posted by: neoholographicThe Sumerians apparently had practiced trading in their original homeland. The frequency of animal beings in the pantheon of their gods suggests some previous pastoral history. The Sumerian language is of no help in identifying their origins because it appears to be unrelated to any other language in the world. It is an agglutinating language like Turkish, Hungarian, Finnish and Inuit (Eskimo); i.e., statements are constructed by adding prefixes and suffixes onto the core word.

Many technical innovations are attributed to the Sumerians.

Where they came from has exactly what to do with your claim of them practicing astrology?

originally posted by: neoholographicLet me repeat:

The Sumerian language is of no help in identifying their origins because it appears to be unrelated to any other language in the world.

Let me repeat:
That has NOTHING TO DO WITH SUMERIAN ASTROLOGY.

originally posted by: neoholographicAgain, this destroys a natural interpretation of evolution alongside other things. Older civilizations influence future civilizations:

The Sumerian civilization influenced other civilization, notably that of Babylon to the north. Egypt was also influenced by the Sumerians. Upper Egypt would have been influenced through the sea routes from the Persian Gulf to the Red Sea. Lower Egypt could have had contact with the Sumerians by that same route or by way of the overland route along the coast of the eastern Mediterranean.

www.sjsu.edu...

By that logic, there can be NO "first civilization."

originally posted by: neoholographicThis civilization shows up and develops writing, starts writing about the gods giving them knowledge, building huge buildings, forming governments, knowing about math, astronomy and anatomy and more.

And? Where did they write about astrology?

Harte