Belief vs Fact

a reply to: glend

This is tough. You two are carrying on a conversation in two threads.
See: www.abovetopsecret.com...

also see: Wise Master Bob

a reply to: pthena

lol, luckily our nuerons capabe of multitaksing.

originally posted by: cooperton
Energy can neither be created or destroyed, you will persist in some way, one way or another, as I would assume this law applies to consciousness as well. This starts to get into Theology then, because we can begin to realize how consciousness is more fundamental than matter itself, as proven by quantum physics and the copenhagen interpretation. The Copenhagen Interpretation insists that matter does not have definitive properties until they are analyzed by a conscious measurer. As absurd as it may sound, it is true, and repeatable in a lab. If matter is subserviant in a sense to consciousness, then consciousness is a higher faculty than matter. If matter, according to Newton's Law, can not be created or destroyed, then neither can consciousness.

This enduring eternal consciousness is known as the Alpha-Omega. Words won't do it justice so I won't even try. You're taken care of, and the hairs on your head are numbered by a higher dimensional intelligence far greater than our own.

Water disproves your hypothesis.

As a gas it is one form, but still water, but disorganized.

As a rain drop, it is organized. Still water.

When it hits the ocean, the drop is destroyed. It becomes the ocean and loses its sperate "drop" nature. It's still water.

"You", your conscience, is the same. Before conception, "you" were nothing. Upon gaining consciousness, "you" became a raindrop. After death, "you" dissolve into all the energy around you.

As the body-battery shuts off, so does the light of consciousness.

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: Akragon

You are thinking in absolutes. What if there is only one absolute truth, that being the Father. Our mind exists in dualities where all truths are relative. So we each see that same creation as having different attributes. Your mind see's substance in creation and that is the truth for you. My mind still see's substance but perhaps not as much, and that is truth for me.

When we have experienced all that can be experience the substance of the void becomes emptier. When one becomes the will of the Father we see the void through that will. As being incredibly more beautiful than anything we can experience with our mind. So what dies are the limitations of mind. Mind still exists. But akin to calculator rather than that, which drives all our passions and motives.

IF there is only one truth which is "the Father"... what happens in the case of myself at least, when i don't believe said "father" is the true God... that being the one mentioned in the OT... which is not "truth" in my mind?

Your truth and my truth clash... so who is right?

Do we compare scripture and sharpen our steel... i've done that for far too many years only to accomplish... nothing

Perhaps IF there is only one truth which is "the Father" whoever that may be... then we are a part of said "Father" set out to experience this existence... And if that is truth... should we not enjoy what we experience... because for certain there will be times where we do not enjoy it...

keep in mind this is coming from someone that works in "heavens waiting room"

a reply to: Akragon

keep in mind this is coming from someone that works in "heavens waiting room"

Sometimes I wish I could use deathbed confessions to illustrate points. But alas! No permission slips for me to do so were signed.

when i don't believe said "father" is the true God

This definitely should have been in the other thread.

Tao te Ching, chapter 6, translated by Stefan Stenudd

The valley spirit never dies.
It is called the mystical female.
The entrance to the mystical female
is called the root of Heaven and Earth.

Though gossamer,
as if barely existing,
it is used but never spent.

See how heaven and earth are rooted in the valley.

I believe facts are only possible if there is non relative truth.
Which is attributed only to God.

a reply to: Akragon

Books are written by men that express their relative truths to the world. It is true to them and those that believe in those relative truths. But they are not the absolute truth. When we see untruth in all things then we will seek truth in the absolute.

Perhaps IF there is only one truth which is "the Father" whoever that may be... then we are a part of said "Father" set out to experience this existence... And if that is truth... should we not enjoy what we experience... because for certain there will be times where we do not enjoy it.

totally Agree

a reply to: cooperton

If mostly everything we have been told growing up is a lie, then anything is possible.

And where do you go when you find out that mostly everything your religion taught you was a lie... just like the rest of everything we've been told?

For a second, I thought this thread was about "truth over facts". -Joe Biden

When you say that you are in the world of material science it is like saying OK I exist. Ok I get that. However when you say I exist therefore I must know all things you need to take a step back and think about that for a while. How do you see them and therefor what do we really know ? I suppose a person could then argue this and that about things that we do not really understand but that is also pointless. Honestly It is harder to believe that there is no creative force behind the universe than nothing at all. Life imitates life and we should try to imitate god because god is above life. There would not be one speck of dust if not for god and life is breathed into people in a way that is astounding and that can not diminished or denied by any rational mind. So it is not hard to accept that god does exist and that he is good and he does care for all creation.

As for faith it is a matter of belief in what cannot be seen. More like giving in to a higher power that is real but beyond our understanding. What is not seen can be felt and that is what makes things that are substantial. Or faith is the substance of things not seen.... ... hebrews chapter 10 Although what everything comes down to in the end is love. It really is just as simple as that. a reply to: kiro8lak

... Getting back to what I was saying;

originally posted by: dffrntkndfnml
This does not imply agreement, more so the acknowledgment of another's insight, and the awareness of the possibility of how those ideas can work for them...

This brings to mind some of the more heated discussions I've had with my kids.

The awareness of the possibility of how an idea works opens the door for someone to to watch and see it's influence for themselves. It's a more passive approach to working a concept without necessarily endorsing it.

a reply to: kiro8lak

Excellent subject !

What do you figure is different, between : beliefs, opinions, consensus reality, facts, and truth ?

a reply to: dffrntkndfnml

The awareness of the possibility of how an idea works opens the door for someone to to watch and see it's influence for themselves. It's a more passive approach to working a concept without necessarily endorsing it.

I've got this Grand Daughter. She doesn't ordinarily go to church. But her Grand Mother took her to church one time. We had this indoors dog who was brought outside to go on the lawn.

My Grand daughter said to me one day, "Look! Sally's poop is in heaven!"

Thinking that that would be an extraordinary thing to see, I asked "Where? How?"

She pointed to a spot on the lawn covered with loose gravel. "I got these rocks from over there and buried the poop."

I thought about this for a while and asked, "So that's heaven? Buried?"

"Yes" she said, smiling, "I learned that at church".

Then I considered for a while, she either should never go to church again or maybe she should go more. But she has since then overheard conversations between myself and her father that would sort of preclude her from wanting to go to church. I guess we'll wait and see if she wants to go on her own accord.

a reply to: kiro8lak

If you, like me, are either Agnostic or Atheist, how do you feel about the possible survival of consciousness after physical death?

In things of Vedic lineage this is called "Atman" and "Anatta".

In Buddhism there are "three universal truths". (And a major component of my cherry picked ideas and current world view.)

Annica - Impermenance - Everything dies - everything has an end.
Dukkha - Suffering - The universe is hostile and imperonal to our existence.
Anatta - Non Self. Life is phenomenal. That which can be perceived by the senses and non-eternal. In short; no soul or an essence of self that exists beyond what is experienced in life.

The 3rd one is the major point of disagreement between Hindu/Buddhists, with the former subscribing to Atman.

I really can't say I have beliefs. I have ideas. Ideas today that were different today then they were 5 years ago. A constant adding to and refinement of things.

a reply to: kwakakev
Quite!

a reply to: pthena

That's really amusing! Off topic, but it reminds me of when my foster daughter & I used to attend a Hindu temple. The lesson of the day had to do with truth telling, but not so as to harm another. Someone asked her what she had learnt that Wednesday evening, & her prompt reply was, "It's OK to lie when you need to!"

a reply to: Degradation33

My own views, exactly . . sort of

a reply to: Nothin

A very good question. Honestly, I don't know . . . . .but I suspect that an opinion is a mental conviction which can possibly be changed by logic & reasoning; a belief might be a more deep-seated opinion possibly with some sort of moral overtone; consensus reality would probably be a world view that has been inculcated into one since birth & is unavoidable if one were to function in society without being committed to an institution; a fact, I imagine would something incontrovertible in keeping with consensus reality (yet I can think of several rebuttals already!) & truth. . . well, maybe a more abstract fact, also with possible moral overtones, & subject to interpretation in accordance with one's world view.

I suspect many of these are interchangeable in common parlance. What's your view?

originally posted by: stormson
Water disproves your hypothesis.

As a gas it is one form, but still water, but disorganized.

As a rain drop, it is organized. Still water.

When it hits the ocean, the drop is destroyed. It becomes the ocean and loses its sperate "drop" nature. It's still water.

"You", your conscience, is the same. Before conception, "you" were nothing. Upon gaining consciousness, "you" became a raindrop. After death, "you" dissolve into all the energy around you.

As the body-battery shuts off, so does the light of consciousness.

originally posted by: Akragon

And where do you go when you find out that mostly everything your religion taught you was a lie... just like the rest of everything we've been told?

I'll take a lesson from the trees. When a leaf dies it falls to the ground... it then fertilizes and reintegrates its energy back into the tree that gave it life.