Evidence of human occupation in Mexico around the Last Glacial Maximum

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: FishBait

I’m definitely not saying they weren’t sea fairing and skilled just that the need to traverse vast oceans might not have started until we ran out of land and close islands to explore which happened with the Polynesians.

Polynesian voyaging canoes were spaceships of the time. Boldly going. But they probably weren't seeking new civilizations. Because that did not often go well. For one party or the other.

But to settle a place requires intent. And technology.

Yep, thinking of that they would have encountered the, Micronesians, Melanesians and perhaps the Aborigines but who else at the time frame in that region?

Now I believe they pushed on and would have encountered the locals in the SA and NA directly but if they did they obviously did not prosper and were absorbed or destroyed

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: FishBait

I’m definitely not saying they weren’t sea fairing and skilled just that the need to traverse vast oceans might not have started until we ran out of land and close islands to explore which happened with the Polynesians.

Polynesian voyaging canoes were spaceships of the time. Boldly going. But they probably weren't seeking new civilizations. Because that did not often go well. For one party or the other.
But to settle a place requires intent. And technology.

Yep, thinking of that they would have encountered the, Micronesians, Melanesians and perhaps the Aborigines but who else at the time frame in that region?
Now I believe they pushed on and would have encountered the locals in the SA and NA directly but if they did they obviously did not prosper and were absorbed or destroyed

You know, it is such a big land mass, and we are talking about such small populations. I think it will be DNA that sorts out who met who, and when.

Yes, DNA allows us to see back into deep time. One wonders what my Great Grandmother x 2,500 generations was doing and where was she? That would have been approximately 50,0000 years ago. You and I might be related. She may have been in Central Asia or perhaps Asia Minor. The Eemian warming was over and cooling was on going and the Ice age was in full swing.

So what were all those folks doing sloshing backwards and forward across the Pacific and elsewhere. DNA and archaeology will give us some answers but in the end it will be but a mere skeleton of what they actually did.

At another forum another comment about the material used in stone tools found

www.hallofmaat.com...,628257,628306#msg-628306

1. Good dating.
2. Both PF and CC used poor lithic material in spite of the availability of better (and prettier) material in both Brazil and Mexico. Modern humans will go a long ways for good rock, capuchins won't.
3. "Michael R. Waters, a geoarchaeologist at Texas A&M University noted the absence of genetic evidence in modern populations to support Guidon's claim.[6]" and same for CC: "Geneticists led by Eske Willerslev at the University of Copenhagen searched for ancient human DNA in the cave dirt, but with no luck. “Of course, I was disappointed,” says Ardelean." (my note: I suppose Niede Guidon was disappointed at PF too!)
4. Both Pedra Furada and Chiquihuite Cave have abnormally long sequences without change, not very human like...but very capuchin like.

a reply to: Hanslune
Capuchins, really?

originally posted by: punkinworks10
a reply to: Hanslune
Capuchins, really?

No not really

Did you not sense my clever use of non-visible but sarcastic use of font...

Sorry Punkinworks10

I got interrupted:

This quote from the paper:

The lithic artefacts were made almost exclusively (>90%) from the green or blackish varieties, which reveals intentional selectivity. Although rare, the green or black limestones are available in the vicinity of the site, in the form of small loose nodules that have eroded from as-yet unidentified geological sources. Results from thin-section petrographic analyses suggest that these particular limestones do not belong to the petrology of the cave, being morphologically different from the rock conforming the walls and roof as well as from the dominant grey clastic material (Supplementary Information

Limestone isn't a great stone tool material but they will work but crumble or break easily. Despite the wording it is possible that the lithics are actually geofacts. They would need to see if the region is only limestone then the folks would be forgiven for using them. Historically people tended to find the best rocks for stone tools even if it was outside their normal areas, even distant. Mexico is rich in volcanic sources of great stone tool making material - so why limestone?

originally posted by: Hanslune
Limestone isn't a great stone tool material but they will work but crumble or break easily. Despite the wording it is possible that the lithics are actually geofacts. They would need to see if the region is only limestone then the folks would be forgiven for using them. Historically people tended to find the best rocks for stone tools even if it was outside their normal areas, even distant. Mexico is rich in volcanic sources of great stone tool making material - so why limestone?

Nixtamalization?

a reply to: Hanslune

Very true. Knapping obsidian isn't a terribly difficult task and the tools last longer and keep their edge much longer as well compared to knapped flint for example.

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: Hanslune

Very true. Knapping obsidian isn't a terribly difficult task and the tools last longer and keep their edge much longer as well compared to knapped flint for example.

Yes I learned used volcanic glass and based on the method used by Don E, Crabtree - still have the manual.

Occasional Papers of the Idaho State University Museum, Number 28: An Introduction to Flintworking - still stained with a bit of blood too.

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: Hanslune
Limestone isn't a great stone tool material but they will work but crumble or break easily. Despite the wording it is possible that the lithics are actually geofacts. They would need to see if the region is only limestone then the folks would be forgiven for using them. Historically people tended to find the best rocks for stone tools even if it was outside their normal areas, even distant. Mexico is rich in volcanic sources of great stone tool making material - so why limestone?

Nixtamalization?

Perhaps but there were no teosinte cobs found that I am aware of and the current understanding is that maize was domesticated around 7000 BCE. The early plant only produced a 20 mm cob (less than an inch) with little food value.

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

Have you ever heard about the London Hammer or the human footprint that was found below a dinosaur print in Paluxy River? Both in different parts of Texas. Both are thought to be millions of years old by some, or used by others to say the earth is only 6,000 years old, and others claim both are hoaxes. But who really knows. As a religious guy myself, the Bible never said anything about time or how the earth is so I really don't know where the whole "6,000 years old" thing came from. Anyways, I think humans have been here far longer than 40,000 years. I think we may even be a third or fourth civilization, bound to fark ourselves again, and bound to be eradicated before the next civilization starts over. Maybe next time, we'll be the ones being called aliens while we buzz silently over earthlings and keep up with their progression for thousands of years.

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
Coming up from those good people at Nature magazine. Nothing on line yet, but my spies tell me that more is promised for tomorrow. This changes the dating of the peopling of the Americas yet again. Still doesn't hit the 40KYA date that I heard muttered about in Monte Verde, Chile...but getting there!

Damn illegals been coming here a long long time...

originally posted by: LSU2018
I think humans have been here far longer than 40,000 years. I think we may even be a third or fourth civilization, bound to fark ourselves again, and bound to be eradicated before the next civilization starts over. Maybe next time, we'll be the ones being called aliens while we buzz silently over earthlings and keep up with their progression for thousands of years.

When you say here, do you mean the Americas?

One point...if there has been other civilizations lets say millions of years ago, they wouldn't be human...just saying... They also haven't been to the moon either...

I would also say they wouldn't have been high tech either...Today if we were wiped off the earth millions of years from now most would be gone, but much would still be seen in one way or another.

originally posted by: LSU2018
a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

Have you ever heard about the London Hammer or the human footprint that was found below a dinosaur print in Paluxy River? Both in different parts of Texas. Both are thought to be millions of years old by some, or used by others to say the earth is only 6,000 years old, and others claim both are hoaxes. But who really knows. As a religious guy myself, the Bible never said anything about time or how the earth is so I really don't know where the whole "6,000 years old" thing came from. Anyways, I think humans have been here far longer than 40,000 years. I think we may even be a third or fourth civilization, bound to fark ourselves again, and bound to be eradicated before the next civilization starts over. Maybe next time, we'll be the ones being called aliens while we buzz silently over earthlings and keep up with their progression for thousands of years.

Thed london hammer is unequivically a fake. it is a brand of prospecting hammer that was widely sold in Tx in the later part of ther 19th cent.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: LSU2018
I think humans have been here far longer than 40,000 years. I think we may even be a third or fourth civilization, bound to fark ourselves again, and bound to be eradicated before the next civilization starts over. Maybe next time, we'll be the ones being called aliens while we buzz silently over earthlings and keep up with their progression for thousands of years.

When you say here, do you mean the Americas?

One point...if there has been other civilizations lets say millions of years ago, they wouldn't be human...just saying... They also haven't been to the moon either...

I would also say they wouldn't have been high tech either...Today if we were wiped off the earth millions of years from now most would be gone, but much would still be seen in one way or another.

Yes the current society would be detectable even millions of years in the future. Besides the kilometer long tunnels bored into granite mountains, hundreds of thousands of oil well holes, there has been massive disturbance of the soil. Unless these are eroded away they will remain until the crust is subducted. Not to mention items we've left on the Moon and in orbit plus countless cut diamonds and other gems that will survive for huge periods of plus radioactive waste material, endless mines, gold coins, pottery, glass and etc., etc.

originally posted by: punkinworks10

originally posted by: LSU2018
a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

Have you ever heard about the London Hammer or the human footprint that was found below a dinosaur print in Paluxy River? Both in different parts of Texas. Both are thought to be millions of years old by some, or used by others to say the earth is only 6,000 years old, and others claim both are hoaxes. But who really knows. As a religious guy myself, the Bible never said anything about time or how the earth is so I really don't know where the whole "6,000 years old" thing came from. Anyways, I think humans have been here far longer than 40,000 years. I think we may even be a third or fourth civilization, bound to fark ourselves again, and bound to be eradicated before the next civilization starts over. Maybe next time, we'll be the ones being called aliens while we buzz silently over earthlings and keep up with their progression for thousands of years.

Thed london hammer is unequivically a fake. it is a brand of prospecting hammer that was widely sold in Tx in the later part of ther 19th cent.

Yep that fake has been bouncing around for ages now almost a century. One of the darlings of the Creationists.

a reply to: Xtrozero

No, when I say here, I mean on earth. And I think they were humans as well. But over a long period of time, they ended up basically where we're at today and we then eradicated outside of a few. It would depend on how civilization was destroyed as to whether or not things still stand. What would find if we dug into the ocean floor? Deep into the sand dunes throughout the deserts? How do we know Atlantis isn't a myth, and might be a city from a previous civilization? Most of civilization was wiped out in 40 day floods. And if you read the Bible, it tells of people who had life spans of hundreds of years before that event. Giants, people seen as gods, etc., all lead back to before the flood.

a reply to: punkinworks10

Ugh. Thanks for popping my bubble, Debbie Downer.

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: punkinworks10

originally posted by: LSU2018
a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

Have you ever heard about the London Hammer or the human footprint that was found below a dinosaur print in Paluxy River? Both in different parts of Texas. Both are thought to be millions of years old by some, or used by others to say the earth is only 6,000 years old, and others claim both are hoaxes. But who really knows. As a religious guy myself, the Bible never said anything about time or how the earth is so I really don't know where the whole "6,000 years old" thing came from. Anyways, I think humans have been here far longer than 40,000 years. I think we may even be a third or fourth civilization, bound to fark ourselves again, and bound to be eradicated before the next civilization starts over. Maybe next time, we'll be the ones being called aliens while we buzz silently over earthlings and keep up with their progression for thousands of years.

Thed london hammer is unequivically a fake. it is a brand of prospecting hammer that was widely sold in Tx in the later part of ther 19th cent.

Yep that fake has been bouncing around for ages now almost a century. One of the darlings of the Creationists.

You could have made your point without that last sentence in there. Makes you look angry since it might somehow tie into someone's religion. There are plenty of things other than the hammer for that.