But our needs

a reply to: DoctorBluechip

No, you don't understand rights.

Rights are to protect the smallest minority -- the individual -- from the majority and mob rule.

Rights are to make sure that government doesn't use the barrel of a gun to prevent me from doing what is right and necessary and proper for myself and mine. To ensure that I am not put in harm's way for the benefit of the chosen few... the real privileged and entitled.

And that is exactly what is happening and what you are defending and promoting. You don't care who gets hurt as long as you benefit.

originally posted by: DoctorBluechip
a reply to: ketsuko

This is a good example of a reasonable argument boadicea ?

One that attacks the post , not the poster ?

It appears to be that a lot of you mericans have had this rights basis to seeing things conditioned into you , probably since birth.

I think if you lot 'd lived even much time at all without what you really need to live , you would not be giving it all this ' rights ' nonsense so much.
I've just gone and made it clear that the difference is , you're spoiled rotten in comparison to a lot of the rest of the world .
Honesty , constitution or not ( ever thought that was written to enslave you in confusion ? )
Rights are immaterial .
Needs are fundamental.
You can have necessary journeys necessary things , to fulfil needs ,
But as for temporarily in necessary you're saying , as if you'd been trained in it , but my rights ...
And , ever thought , you're living in a world of abuse off of rights based bullcrap. If you're constitution was based on needs , like the need to bear arms etc etc , you might live a bit more in a fairer and more reality based system .

There it is. Its jealousy.

Makes sense now. Should we forfeit our American freedoms to make you feel better? Seems to be the route of this thread.

a reply to: Boadicea

Thankyou . Now I can go to up work in peace .
Your bold forthrightness and absolute refusal to fear are respected qualities , as well. Things have been learned today thanks for your contributions.

originally posted by: DoctorBluechip
a reply to: tanstaafl
If rights are not respected , what do they become ?

Privileges that can be taken away at the whim of petty-tyrant-wanna-be's like yourself who are afraid of their own shadow..

You can't really call the new York subway , for example , a safe environment , at the moment

If I lived in NYC, I wouldn't hesitate - because I know my immune system is in great shape and am not afraid of my own shadow (or this virus).

If you are afraid - whether you are in the high risk category, or you're just afraid - then by all means, don't go there. That is a decision each person makes for themselves.

It is called personal responsibility. I know, not a concept people like you understand, but there is always hope that you will open your mind at some point. Not likely, but we can always hope. That is in fact the only reason I am replying to this.

a reply to: DoctorBluechip

We're not spoiled.

Spoiled is expecting to sit there and have everything provided to you.

We're used to providing everything for ourselves. It's damn hard work. Our rights are what guarantee we can do that. Those rights come with heavy responsibility, but the rub is that for everything given, the same can be taken.

If you sit there and allow government to provide, then what that same government provides, it can also withhold. You give it that power over you. Your wonderful health care? You get what the government gives as it chooses, no more or less. If there is a new treatment somewhere in the world that might address your particular issue? You have to wait on the government to decide it will provide that.

A system where it is incumbent upon you to provide for yourself at least gives you the hope that you might aspire to that treatment on your own as you are able. No system prevents it, only your own ability and means. Yes, those do limit, but people can and have moved mountains for the things they need/want under such systems. When government provides, there are no mountains to move. Everyone is limited, no one is free.

Rights don't matter because they're oppressed by the government, and right now, that's the system we're being kept under here in the US. You can call it selfishness, but I don't wear a collar.

FEMA will have all your needs taken care of.

They will liberate you from the responsibility and ownership of your house, car, belongings and even your pets!

Plus, it's a gated community!!

Although I'm not sure they'll give you a key to the front gate, but you could always say you "need" one.

🤷🏽‍♂️

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

You

So put simply your angry with capitalism, which is completely understandable, righteous even.

What. Modern farming has lead to the huge population that you claim you want to protect. A surplus of food with a majority of people not working themselves to death trying to live from ground/hand/mouth.

You

I'm not disagreeing with you other than I do not blame the city folk for being in their position

What. The size of the worlds population passed the brink of simply surviving by hunting and gathering long ago. If all the farm land in the world was retuned to its natural state tomorrow and repopulated by wild life, there would not be enough game and plants to support the world’s population without farming.

You

Globalism has it's webs all over the place, once they start to fail it all falls apart and chaos ensues.

I hate seeing natural land “developed”. But I am sure as hell glad I don’t live like a peasant. Where one local drought might mean the death of my family. And even peasants had to pay taxes.

Farming, providing food that supports the population you claim you want to protect is not “globalism” in the evil sense you are implying.

originally posted by: DoctorBluechip
a reply to: Boadicea

Things have been learned today thanks for your contributions.

Thank YOU. This warms my cockles and gives me hope.

We can find a middle ground. We can do better for everyone.

a reply to: ketsuko

You

Spoiled is expecting to sit there and have everything provided to you.

Especially when that individual could lock themselves in their basement for six months to “survive” while the 98 percents of us that was going to survive this regardless of any mitigation go on living.

Quick hypothetical...

Say some chauvinistic douche coughs on your compromised child during a pandemic because he refuses to adhere to the rules. Now do I have the right to protect my child against this idiot, or do I simply have to watch him violate my child's rights?


One thing I am learning during this is that many people are arrogant self centered pricks who talk about freedoms and patriotism but when tasked with protecting others they will spike the ball.

Somewhere we lost the concept of what freedoms really are. It's not having the freedom to go buy nachos and cigarettes at 7-11 anytime. It's being able to do it without the fear of any harm coming to you.

If you think all this is an overreaction then by all means stick to you're convictions and go expose yourself to this "minor flu" to prove us all wrong. Volunteer at a hospital. I'll wait...

Just wanna say No...your "needs" don't outweigh anyone's "rights".

Unless you're a Communist...they'll agree with you.

originally posted by: JAY1980
Quick hypothetical...

Say some chauvinistic douche coughs on your compromised child during a pandemic because he refuses to adhere to the rules. Now do I have the right to protect my child against this idiot, or do I simply have to watch him violate my child's rights?

One thing I am learning during this is that many people are arrogant self centered pricks who talk about freedoms and patriotism but when tasked with protecting others they will spike the ball.

Somewhere we lost the concept of what freedoms really are. It's not having the freedom to go buy nachos and cigarettes at 7-11 anytime. It's being able to do it without the fear of any harm coming to you.

If you think all this is an overreaction then by all means stick to you're convictions and go expose yourself to this "minor flu" to prove us all wrong. Volunteer at a hospital. I'll wait...

Funny you bring that up.

I would volunteer at a Hospital, but the only Hospital in my city doesn't have ANY Covid19 patients.

They shut down our Arena to house all the victims of this pandemic, oh, it's empty too.

Our whole city is shut down for maybe 5 cases of C19..all over 60 years old with other conditions.

This is the situation all over the world.

Wake up.



BTW - I DO want to get it over with. The good old fashioned way...but I think I ate too much dirt as a kid...it won't penetrate....LOL

a reply to: DoctorBluechip

Very, succinctly well written. Thank you.
EMT

You say that, ultimately, people "need" to stay alive. Why do they need this? I can see how access to food and healthcare are "needs" that serve the interest of staying alive, but what need does staying alive itself serve?

a reply to: tanstaafl


"It is called personal responsibility. "

You're right about this , the role of informed and responsible behaviour was not factored in. Some governments have taken the line that they can't expect people to do they're asked to. And maybe they're paying somewhat for that from this backlash , only via discreditation though , at the moment at least. In Sweden they've taken the unusual step of allowing their public a lot more leeway , partly because they know the vast majority of them and they mostly trust their government. Their population is only 10 million.

wouldn't hesitate - because I know my immune system is in great shape

You're wrong about this. Corona has taken children and every age group, people with no other health conditions too. You'd be in danger of a cytokine storm ( immune system overreaction) , and the larger the initial dose of virus , the worse the resultant condition , which is why many medics have died of Corona . Besides that your immune system has never seen this virus before , similar yes , but this one has jumped from an animal , and it's zoonotic. If you catch it your pets can too your house will be infected including your housemates or family. You don't want to risk that , see what happens to carers for patients. You need to avoid Corona ( like the plague) .

Privileges that can be taken away at the whim of petty-tyrant-wanna-be's like yourself who are afraid of their own shadow..

There's no need to get personal . We re anonymous.
Mostly.

This is a talking point , what are rights if they're not respected ? (always, as you say.) ?

What unrespected rights become is empty shells , useless artifacts. Of past significance but present disregardability.
Just maybe , rights as a central constitutional concept are a fundamental con. A gift that's really worth very little , but which you're expected to prize , as if your life and liberty depended on them .
But maybe you're being conned out of something more important , that being your very needs.
No I'm not rewriting a Communist manifesto , but when human needs are constant, simple rights to them can be disregarded , taken away , given out unjudicially to favoured groups , and otherwise altered and molested. By government and by others .
Crucially, when rights are not respected and all you have is empty rights , and not necessarily what you need, you're now open to exploitation .
What you don't have a right to is now given to others to have rights to , and then your unrespected rights become a burden on yourself and an easy ride for others , on your back . A good demonstration is some having rights over vast tracts of land , and you as human need land , you still have the right to buy some , but only if current owner s are ready to waive their own for money. Rights create a grossly unfair system of things , but had the us constitution addressed needs instead , wouldn't you be better off . Much better off. And things would be fairer by far. And more reliable.
There's no such thing as a defunct or ignorable need. Needs are definite , while rights are built on sketchy ground. Also needs are finite , there's only so many , but rights , inalienable or not , can be confusingly arranged and multiplicitous . Rights enable conflict , needs are basic and nobody except fools argue with what's necessary.
You need to not be homeless , but helpless people wander around , what good are their rights to solve it ? You need to not be hungry and underfed , but hungry people there are , rights don't solve it.
You need to drink water , but do you have even a right to do that ? No you can expect get off my property if you approach the wrong piece of water . It's not your right . You have other rights to explain your lack of rights to use it , hand take them up elsewhere instead.

Needs are always more important than rights . You definitely had into drilled into you that rights are what you want , and accommodate for what you need . But clearly that s a lie and an illusion , with liberty and justice for all. You've had it drilled out of you to forget what you need , and gifted with false pledges in replacement. And here explains the backlash , you've taken our rights as well ? And that's q fair point. So much so ,because it's been forgotten what's needed , the emphasis taken away, the meaning made devoid. Needs being something that commies talk about , and fundamentalists .

You forgotten realities and exchanged them for rights , and don't understand so well when something becomes necessary , becomes required , becomes fundamentally important instead.
In this pandemic the government now has needs , and people who understand the necessities of life here are saying , you need to act correctly here. Your rights are of little importance , the needs of life always did matter more, and now you must understand this matter . Things just got more real , and it's time you were enlightened. The truth cannot be denied and it's time to realise that what's needed is far far more important than rights.

originally posted by: DoctorBluechip
Needs are always more important than rights.

“The liberties of our country, the freedoms of our civil Constitution are worth defending at all hazards; it is our duty to defend them against all attacks. We have received them as a fair inheritance from our worthy ancestors. They purchased them for us with toil and danger and expense of treasure and blood. It will bring a mark of everlasting infamy on the present generation – enlightened as it is – if we should suffer them to be wrested from us by violence without a struggle, or to be cheated out of them by the artifices of designing men.”
― Samuel Adams

I guess it isn't a crazy conspiracy theory anymore, is it? When the chips are down, you see what the authoritarians really want. They want it all. Everything you got. They will not be satisfied until you can't do anything without permission.

You think all these restrictions are going to go away when/if the virus does? Nope. Oh they'll "let" you go back to work (because what's the point of owning a bunch of slaves if you can't make them work?) but it will be on THEIR terms.

The healthcare system is your kryptonite and they know it. Once they have full control over healthcare, that's it. (I mean once they force everyone into any and every compulsory treatment that is deemed to be good for society. They already own healthcare but you don't necessarily have to submit to them.....yet)

a reply to: DoctorBluechip

Leave my nation, fascist vermin.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

That's a funny looking sheep.

a reply to: tanstaafl

Well yes that does sound like an elaborately worded con trick . Including a call to duty , a somewhat useless gift , a leaning on expectation to recognise the price , which someon else had to pay in times gone by , a threat , an ego grooming affirmation of sentimental valuations , a fear mongering over tenability against jealousy , and an expectation of preservation , despite that there might be better alternatives .

That's a list of how you con people ( the masses ) with chosen words. Had Samuel Adams any progress to bring forth and develop for his nation ? No , he had a regressive protectionism of devisive means in mind.