Ammon Bundy Wants National Effort to Buck Coronavirus Rules

a reply to: Gandalf77

Believe me, it works both ways. There are plenty of folks here who hope Bundy can be educated too. (Personally, I'm not holding my breath.)

Fair enough and true enough.

And ya know what? I would lovelovelove to see that debate take place. It can only serve to educate and inform everyone. And it's probably the best way to find middle ground.

You good folks don’t understand the philosophical principles behind a so-called civilized society

You, intrinsically being a citizen, have only unlimited freedoms and rights, so the macrocosmic society as a whole (represented by the elected leaders) can order you to do things in times of peril that will impact on the common good.
You want your garbage picked up?
The firemen to come when needed?
The army to fight for your freedom when needed?
You want your kid to go to a school where he won’t get a disease?
What if people walked around naked in your community?
So we are forced to pay taxes...

Societal coercion is a part of any civilized society. It's an existential fact!

Now, in this case, I understand the dilemma since people are forcibly being kicked out of work so this principle here is under great strain.

The solution to this is compensating the people for that forced sacrifice

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters
So many people act like this is the first time Americans have been under quarantine. There were quarantines in 1918 as well.

Wow! I totally remember experiencing that!

You didn't have to experience it if you are intelligent enough to read and study history, noone experienced the American Revolution or talked to the founding fathers either, but a lot of them sure act like they did.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

Terrifying.

Worse...there are a lot of people convinced actions, like this, are for our own good.

It is terrifying. I honestly don't know if people just don't see the room for abuse... or if they think it just won't happen. Or maybe they really believe it won't happen to them but everyone else deserves it.

I really don't get it. And no one wants to have that discussion it seems.

Removing double post.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: themessengernevermatters

Please. I believe in principles, not people. I knew that the Feds were abusing their powers and authority in the west long before Bunkerville and the Bundys had even heard of the Bundy's. It is and always has been much bigger than the Bundys. it was then, and it is now.

If you can't see past the individuals to the principles involved, and you are not outraged at the jackboot thug tactics of the Feds against citizens, then you are part of the problem.

I am sure you have, I have as well. I have read and heard the conspiracy theorists who were warning in the 60s, 70s,80s,90s,2000s 2010s, now in 2020 and guess what. Nothing has every changed or ever will change about it. You think the people are suddenly going to wake up and fix it? They haven't yet and they won't now, nor will they in the future. You can have fun with your pipedream. i am sure I will hear it all again in the 2030s.

a reply to: Willtell

Sadly, you do make good points. Our "freedom" has been curtailed at the least for a very long time.

I would say the biggest distinction here is that we have some options or choices for the most part. If I don't want to pay car insurance, then I can ride a bike or take the bus or whatever. Or I can get a car but only purchase the minimum liability policy in the event I have an accident I have the means to make the other party "whole."

You want that kind of freedom go live in the woods by yourself...

I'd actually love to!

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Willtell

Sadly, you do make good points. Our "freedom" has been curtailed at the least for a very long time.

I would say the biggest distinction here is that we have some options or choices for the most part. If I don't want to pay car insurance, then I can ride a bike or take the bus or whatever. Or I can get a car but only purchase the minimum liability policy in the event I have an accident I have the means to make the other party "whole."

You want that kind of freedom go live in the woods by yourself...

I'd actually love to!

You can't own land without paying rent the kings rent ie taxes.

a reply to: Willtell

With due respect, you're looking at this from a majorly different angle than rural American like Bundy. That's part of the disconnect. I guarantee you Ammon Bundy doesn't worry about someone picking up his trash, the fire department keeping his house from burning down, or even police reporting to a call he makes. Rural America handles their own trash, they help their neighbor put out a fire, and they handle their own property security, we homeschool our kids, we skinny dip ponds, and we don't give a damn for taxation...

The stuff you're listing as intrinsic "benefits" of society aren't factors of benefit in the eyes of people like Bundy (or myself, being honest). I understand your confusion, because you're seeing "major benefits" so you comply fully with society, but consider someone to whom those benefits are considered non-factors, and maybe you can see why a lot of rural America sees your society as nothing but a cost to them and their freedoms.

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Willtell

Sadly, you do make good points. Our "freedom" has been curtailed at the least for a very long time.

I would say the biggest distinction here is that we have some options or choices for the most part. If I don't want to pay car insurance, then I can ride a bike or take the bus or whatever. Or I can get a car but only purchase the minimum liability policy in the event I have an accident I have the means to make the other party "whole."

You want that kind of freedom go live in the woods by yourself...

I'd actually love to!

You can't own land without paying rent the kings rent ie taxes.

...which is why "ownership" of anything in modern times is a total scam. If the government can legally steal it from you, then you don't actually own it.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: Willtell

With due respect, you're looking at this from a majorly different angle than rural American like Bundy. That's part of the disconnect. I guarantee you Ammon Bundy doesn't worry about someone picking up his trash, the fire department keeping his house from burning down, or even police reporting to a call he makes. Rural America handles their own trash, they help their neighbor put out a fire, and they handle their own property security, we homeschool our kids, we skinny dip ponds, and we don't give a damn for taxation...

The stuff you're listing as intrinsic "benefits" of society aren't factors of benefit in the eyes of people like Bundy (or myself, being honest). I understand your confusion, because you're seeing "major benefits" so you comply fully with society, but consider someone to whom those benefits are considered non-factors, and maybe you can see why a lot of rural America sees your society as nothing but a cost to them and their freedoms.

Even the most ardent prepper i have seen uses fuel and needs supplies of some kind. They like to pretend they don't need the system but most are full of it. Even in the wilds of the country people will end up having to result to fur trading to get money for fuel and supplies, which all come from the system.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Gandalf77

Believe me, it works both ways. There are plenty of folks here who hope Bundy can be educated too. (Personally, I'm not holding my breath.)

Fair enough and true enough.

And ya know what? I would lovelovelove to see that debate take place. It can only serve to educate and inform everyone. And it's probably the best way to find middle ground.

Boad, it's not going to happen until people understand they cannot force people into giving up their businesses, cannot force people into pennilessness, without blowback or repercussions to make THEM feel better about something with a high rate of mutation (Iceland already found 40 variants of 19, REMEMBER PEOPLE?) Ultimately, this is going to make flu vaccines look like a smashing success, forcing hiding in our houses while bankrupting everyone and everything isn't going to change that.

When the money runs out and the prices spike -- and they will -- it will be nasty and forgiveness & all that hippy dippy jazz will go right out the window. Blame will be plentiful, and guess who's going to be targets? I wouldn't blame anyone, either. It would be far wiser to never get to that point and put the willing back to work and let the unwilling hermit their lives away. If people cannot respect that and work with it, then I have no reason to consider anything they have to say, let alone respect them for any reason. That's the other side of the Me Me Me coin they're wailing about, and it's more insidious & destructive because it can destroy much more than just killing a small percentage of people would.

If you believe in principles then you believe in the common understanding that in any society one has a pact, more or less, being a citizen, to act in certain ways based on coercion.

You do pay taxes, you do buy car insurance.

Now when there are extremities within the society (war, pandemic, natural disasters) often the leaders for the sake of the general welfare of everybody have to implement degrees of coercive acts.

One has every right to disobey but then one has to suffer the consequence’s

These are principles underlying the very essence of what being a citizen of a civilized society is all about.

Now, the higher judgment, whether we as a species are civilized is a whole question in itself!

But this guy, with all due respect, doesn't have a principled leg to stand on, IMO.

He takes advantage of the societal intrinsic, coercive actions when he likes it but when there are personal challenges he hides behind a myopic concept of freedom he has no understanding about.


I totally understand being against this but not based on freedom but the suffering of any of my fellow Americans.

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: Willtell

With due respect, you're looking at this from a majorly different angle than rural American like Bundy. That's part of the disconnect. I guarantee you Ammon Bundy doesn't worry about someone picking up his trash, the fire department keeping his house from burning down, or even police reporting to a call he makes. Rural America handles their own trash, they help their neighbor put out a fire, and they handle their own property security, we homeschool our kids, we skinny dip ponds, and we don't give a damn for taxation...

The stuff you're listing as intrinsic "benefits" of society aren't factors of benefit in the eyes of people like Bundy (or myself, being honest). I understand your confusion, because you're seeing "major benefits" so you comply fully with society, but consider someone to whom those benefits are considered non-factors, and maybe you can see why a lot of rural America sees your society as nothing but a cost to them and their freedoms.

Even the most ardent prepper i have seen uses fuel and needs supplies of some kind. They like to pretend they don't need the system but most are full of it. Even in the wilds of the country people will end up having to result to fur trading to get money for fuel and supplies, which all come from the system.

Don't confuse issues. Going to a store to purchase supplies or fuel isn't "society," it's commerce. Commerce has existed for thousands of years, predating anything even remotely close to today's "system." I have X, you have Y, trade me some of X for some of Y. Today that trade usually happens with dollars, but it just as easily happens with bartering where a lot of goods and services in rural America are concerned.

originally posted by: themessengernevermatters
You didn't have to experience it...

No, I didn't have to experience it, and I certainly don't need to be experiencing this one with its massive government overreach and economic destruction.

a reply to: Willtell

The problem with all of that is that the US Constitution is absolutely a restriction on government directed partly at restricting what the government is allowed to demand from the citizens in that pact. They CANNOT demand citizens surrender their Right to freedoms enumerated in the Constitution and remain a Constitutional Republic. At some point in the not too distant future, there will be claims that the contract which formed our Republic (the Constitution) has been violated and the Republic is void and, frankly, anyone making that claim isn't wrong. This likely won't, but certainly should result in some states calling for separation from the Republic because the federal government failed to uphold their end of that deal.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

But commerce depends on a civilized society where always the hidden hand of the law or authority is keeping the peace so you can sell your wares in a peaceful environment.

What happens when one gets robbed? You go to the police. Your taxes pay those cops.

By the law, you aren’t allowed to practice your own justice and go take out the robbers yourself.

One has to look at the whole society as having rights as well as the individual. That’s the principle behind coercive governmental authority: protecting the rights and welfare of the whole.

a reply to: burdman30ott6


Rights are not unlimited; therefore, any government has the authority to restrict your rights for the sake of a common good in certain times of societal stress.


Now the judgment behind what is the common good often is subjective, sure, but the principle is always upheld.

When there’s a war they can draft you unless you claim conscientious objector.


In times of societal challenges like war, natural disasters, this pandemic, rights can be restricted, that’s just in the law itself.

Rights and freedom are not unlimited. The constitution does not say rights and freedom are unlimited

They’re relative only.

originally posted by: Willtell
What happens when one gets robbed? You go to the police. Your taxes pay those cops.

By the law, you aren’t allowed to practice your own justice and go take out the robbers yourself.

Seems to me like the system is self propagating.
The law created a problem: handling property crime yourself is illegal
The law created the solution: We will form police for the purpose of handling crimes
and the law set the price: You'll pay taxes to fund this

It's an extreme case, as police exist in some capacity to defend Constitutional Rights and Liberties as well, but look at so many other aspects of "society's benefits" and you see the same self propagating loop all over the place. The government exists largely to justify the existence of the government, which is not freedom nor a good use of our resources.

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: burdman30ott6


Rights are not unlimited; therefore, any government has the authority to restrict your rights for the sake of a common good in certain times of societal stress.

The lawsuits, the mountains of lawsuits, that the governments (federal, state, and local) will be hit with when this passes will be interesting. I think we will ultimately see whether the government's power is infinite and the Constitution truly is little more than a set of suggestions, easily tossed aside when the going gets a little rocky, or if the government screwed the pooch on this one and a lot of Americans will suddenly have egg on their faces and a realization that the Constitution means a lot more than they wanted it to.

ETA: What's being called for by Bundy isn't unlimited Rights. The Right to congregate in observance of your religious practices, for example, is a fundamental human right. The right to freedom of movement is also a fundamental human right. The right to work for your own benefit is a fundamental human right. These extend beyond the Constitution and what's happening now would be considered human rights violations by the international community if each of their countries weren't doing the exact same thing.