Science indicates evolution of species.

a reply to: cooperton

Regardless of that, you still need to either prove that somehow the electron transport chain can work without ATP synthase, or admit that it is irreducibly complex.

Let me remind you that YOU never proved your interpretation. You merely post a jpg, rework it and expect everyone to accept your inept way of describing the system. You don't even understand the electron transport system. Your description is 100% wrong. Go back to school (I recommend starting in the 1st grade) and learn science properly.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Phantom423

Please cite a textbook, research article or other professional material which says that evolution is about one organism changing into another. And give an example like: A mouse turning into an elephant or a bedbug turning into a dog.

Thank you.

Evolutionary theory insists that organisms have been evolving into other organisms over time. We never observe this. Populations of organisms cannot change into another over time. Your faith that they do is unfounded in empirical science

Cooperton, I never thought I'd see the day when you admit to being a fraud. I guess the Silence of the Lambs says it all.



Your pal's jail cell is empty at the moment. Perhaps you'd like to start your sentence early for potential early release?




en.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: Phantom423

Please cite a textbook, research article or other professional material which says that evolution is about one organism changing into another.

Ape-like creatures were theorized to have changed into another organism over time - home sapiens. The entire point of evolutionary theory is that all organisms mutated from the progenitor first living organism.

Let me remind you that YOU never proved your interpretation

Yikes... it was such basic biology I would've figured you knew it. The electron transport chain needs ATP synthase to generate ATP from the electrochemical gradient that emerged from the preceding metabolic processes. Since all the complexes of the electron transport chain need each other to have a fully functioning metabolism, it can not work properly without ATP synthase. Therefore, the electron transport chain is irreducibly complex

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Phantom423

Please cite a textbook, research article or other professional material which says that evolution is about one organism changing into another.

Ape-like creatures were theorized to have changed into another organism over time - home sapiens. The entire point of evolutionary theory is that all organisms mutated from the progenitor first living organism.

Let me remind you that YOU never proved your interpretation

Yikes... it was such basic biology I would've figured you knew it. The electron transport chain needs ATP synthase to generate ATP from the electrochemical gradient that emerged from the preceding metabolic processes. Since all the complexes of the electron transport chain need each other to have a fully functioning metabolism, it can not work properly without ATP synthase. Therefore, the electron transport chain is irreducibly complex

You avoid answering the question like the plague. The reason is because there is no textbook, professional journal or research article that ever said that an ape turned into a man. You think you can fool everyone by inserting terms like "over time", etc. Well you don't. You fool no one.

And no, you don't understand the physics of the electron transport system. You're making it up as you go along inserting crap along the way. If you understood anything about the electron transport system you would know that it is an excellent example of evolution itself.

originally posted by: Phantom423

there is no textbook, professional journal or research article that ever said that an ape turned into a man.

You know thats not what I said. When I refer to an "ape-like creature" that is a reference to the theorized hominids that preceded the evolution of homo sapiens.

You think you can fool everyone by inserting terms like "over time", etc. Well you don't. You fool no one.

You need to relax

And no, you don't understand the physics of the electron transport system.

Where was I incorrect in my analysis? Do you have a solution to how it could work without ATP synthase? The electron transport chain needs ATP synthase to function, among many other required proteins, therefore it is irreducibly complex

I'll take the inability to answer the question as a total FAIL. Question remains unanswered.

You're a weasel who squirms around the obvious in an attempt to obscure the truth. That's a definition of a fraud.

As for the electron transport system, you have zero understanding of its development, its components or why it's even there.

During evolution, proton pumps have arisen independently on multiple occasions. Thus, not only throughout nature but also within single cells, different proton pumps that are evolutionarily unrelated can be found. Proton pumps are divided into different major classes of pumps that use different sources of energy, have different polypeptide compositions and evolutionary origins.

Early cells are believed to have been bacteriumlike organisms living in an environment rich in highly reduced organic molecules that had been formed by geochemical processes over the course of hundreds of millions of years. They may have derived most of their ATP by converting these reduced organic molecules to a variety of organic acids, which were then released as waste products. By acidifying the environment, these fermentations may have led to the evolution of the first membrane-bound H+ pumps, which could maintain a neutral pH in the cell interior by pumping out H+.

The properties of present-day bacteria suggest that an electron-transport-driven H+ pump and an ATP-driven H+ pump first arose in this anaerobic environment. Reversal of the ATP-driven pump would have allowed it to function as an ATP synthase.As more effective electron-transport chains developed, the energy released by redox reactions between inorganic molecules and/or accumulated nonfermentable compounds produced a large electrochemical proton gradient, which could be harnessed by the ATP-driven pump for ATP production.

Because preformed organic molecules were replenished only very slowly by geochemical processes, the proliferation of bacteria that used them as the source of both carbon and reducing power could not go on forever. The depletion of fermentable organic nutrients presumably led to the evolution of bacteria that could use CO2to make carbohydrates. By combining parts of the electron-transport chains that had developed earlier, light energy was harvested by a single photosystem in photosynthetic bacteria to generate the NADPH required for carbon fixation. The subsequent appearance of the more complex photosynthetic electron-transport chains of the cyanobacteria allowed H2O to be used as the electron donor for NADPH formation, rather than the much less abundant electron donors required by other photosynthetic bacteria. Life could then proliferate over large areas of the Earth, so that reduced organic molecules accumulated again.

About 2×109 years ago, the O2 released by photosynthesis in cyanobacteria began to accumulate in the atmosphere. Once both organic molecules and O2 had become abundant, electron-transport chains became adapted for the transport of electrons from NADH to O2, and efficient aerobic metabolism developed in many bacteria. Exactly the same aerobic mechanisms operate today in the mitochondria of eucaryotes, and there is increasing evidence that both mitochondria and chloroplasts evolved from aerobic bacteria that were endocytosed by primitive eucaryotic cells.

What this means is that all proton pumps are component systems. They evolved from primitive proton pumps to more complex structures when more complexity to support the organism was required.

There is no "irreducible complexity" here. It's a series of systems built over time to accommodate life. ATP synthase itself has several molecular structures. And an enzyme complex may not always be required to produce ATP.

Your explanation is based on Michael Behe's work which was proven in court to be unsubstantiated. An irreducible complex system would have no precursors and would be a stand-alone, unique structure with no precedence. The electron transport system as we know it today does not fill that definition. What's more, it will continue to evolve to accommodate whatever the lifeform requires.

You failed again, Cooperton. I would hate to be you presenting my report card to Mom and Dad.


I will have to enlarge these jpgs to make them readable


The oxidation of formic acid in some present-day bacteria
In such anaerobic bacteria, including E. coli, the oxidation is mediated by an energy-conserving electron-transport chain in the plasma membrane. As indicated, the starting materials are formic acid and fumarate, and the products are succinate and CO2. Note that H+ is consumed inside the cell and generated outside the cell, which is equivalent to pumping H+ to the cell exterior. Thus, this membrane-bound electron-transport system can generate an electrochemical proton gradient across the plasma membrane. The redox potential of the formic acid-CO2 pair is -420 mV, while that of the fumarate-succinate pair is +30 mV.

The jpgs come out of a book so the illustrations can't be enlarged. The captions are posted beneath the illustration.


The oxidation of formic acid in some present-day bacteria
In such anaerobic bacteria, including E. coli, the oxidation is mediated by an energy-conserving electron-transport chain in the plasma membrane. As indicated, the starting materials are formic acid and fumarate, and the products are succinate and CO2. Note that H+ is consumed inside the cell and generated outside the cell, which is equivalent to pumping H+ to the cell exterior. Thus, this membrane-bound electron-transport system can generate an electrochemical proton gradient across the plasma membrane. The redox potential of the formic acid-CO2 pair is -420 mV, while that of the fumarate-succinate pair is +30 mV.


Some of the electron-transport pathways in present-day bacteria
These pathways generate all the cell's ATP and reducing power from the oxidation of inorganic molecules, such as iron, ammonia, nitrite, and sulfur compounds. As indicated, some species can grow anaerobically by substituting nitrate for oxygen as the terminal electron acceptor. Most use the carbon-fixation cycle and synthesize their organic molecules entirely from carbon dioxide. Both forward and reverse electron flows occur from the quinone (Q). As in the respiratory chain, the forward electron flows cause H+ to be pumped out of the cell, and the resulting H+ gradient drives the production of ATP by an ATP synthase (not shown). The NADPH required for carbon fixation is produced by an energy-requiring reverse electron flow; this flow is also driven by the H+ gradient, as indicated.


The evolution of oxidative phosphorylation mechanisms. One possible sequence is shown; the stages are described in the text.


The general flow of electrons in a relatively primitive form of photosynthesis observed in present-day green sulfur bacteria
The photosystem in green sulfur bacteria resembles photosystem I in plants and cyanobacteria. Both photosystems use a series of iron-sulfur centers as the electron acceptors that eventually donate their high-energy electrons to ferredoxin (Fd). An example of a bacterium of this type is Chlorobium tepidum, which can thrive at high temperatures and low light intensities in hot springs.


Some major events that are believed to have occurred during the evolution of living organisms on Earth
With the evolution of the membrane-based process of photosynthesis, organisms could make their own organic molecules from CO2 gas. As explained in the text, the delay of more than 109 years between the appearance of bacteria that split water and released O2 during photosynthesis and the accumulation of high levels of O2 in the atmosphere is thought to be due to the initial reaction of the oxygen with abundant ferrous iron (Fe2+) dissolved in the early oceans. Only when the iron was used up would oxygen have started to accumulate in the atmosphere. In response to the rising levels of oxygen in the atmosphere, nonphotosynthetic oxygen-using organisms appeared, and the concentration of oxygen in the atmosphere leveled out.


A phylogenetic tree of the proposed evolution of mitochondria and chloroplasts and their bacterial ancestors
Oxygen respiration is thought to have begun developing about 2 × 109 years ago. As indicated, it seems to have evolved independently in the green, purple, and blue-green (cyanobacterial) lines of photosynthetic bacteria. It is thought that an aerobic purple bacterium that had lost its ability to photosynthesize gave rise to the mitochondrion, while several different blue-green bacteria gave rise to chloroplasts. Nucleotide sequence analyses suggest that mitochondria arose from purple bacteria that resembled the rhizobacteria, agrobacteria, and rickettsias—three closely related species known to form intimate associations with present-day eucaryotic cells. Archea are not known to contain the type of photosystems described in this chapter, and they are not included here.


A comparison of three electron-transport chains discussed in this chapter
Bacteria, chloroplasts, and mitochondria all contain a membrane-bound enzyme complex that resembles the cytochrome b-c1 complex of mitochondria. These complexes all accept electrons from a quinone carrier (Q) and pump H+ across their respective membranes. Moreover, in reconstituted in vitro systems, the different complexes can substitute for one another, and the amino acid sequences of their protein components reveal that they are evolutionarily related.

Why is nature so ordered? Why does science follow hard coded rules? Why is there not more chaos on this randomly evolved planet?

originally posted by: jjkenobi
Why is nature so ordered? Why does science follow hard coded rules? Why is there not more chaos on this randomly evolved planet?

In a word, survival. In biology it's called the structure-function relationship. The better the structure, the better the function. That's the idea of evolution. If systems do not evolve - all systems, not just ones that are "alive" - to meet the demands of their environment, they die off or disappear.

a reply to: cooperton

Sometimes in life you get a second chance. Here's yours. Learn something.



www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: Phantom423

During evolution, proton pumps have arisen independently on multiple occasions.

Show me empirical evidence that proton pumps can arise through random mutation. Your source admittedly makes faith-based assumptions - which is the opposite of science:

Early cells are believed to have been bacteriumlike organisms living in an environment rich in highly reduced organic molecules that had been formed by geochemical processes over the course of hundreds of millions of years. They may have derived most of their ATP by converting these reduced organic molecules to a variety of organic acids, which were then released as waste products. By acidifying the environment, these fermentations may have led to the evolution of the first membrane-bound H+ pumps, which could maintain a neutral pH in the cell interior by pumping out H+.

notice all the "may have's", and even their statement of faith: "believed to have been". It is faith, not science. They have the conclusion they want to prove, and then try to make stories to fit that narrative. It is backwards science.

Thus, not only throughout nature but also within single cells, different proton pumps that are evolutionarily unrelated can be found. Proton pumps are divided into different major classes of pumps that use different sources of energy, have different polypeptide compositions and evolutionary origins.

More faith. Never has it been seen in a lab that such a complex quaternary protein can come to be by the proposed evolutionary mechanisms. That wasn't even the debate either. The dilemma was that the electron transport chain needs all components to work.

The properties of present-day bacteria suggest that an electron-transport-driven H+ pump and an ATP-driven H+ pump first arose in this anaerobic environment. Reversal of the ATP-driven pump would have allowed it to function as an ATP synthase.

Yet this would be useless unless the rest of the electron transport chain were present, and if the rest of the electron transport chain were present, it would be hitherto useless because it didn't have ATP synthase. That is the paradox you can't wrap your head around because you're caught up in your biased dogma.

Once both organic molecules and O2 had become abundant, electron-transport chains became adapted for the transport of electrons from NADH to O2, and efficient aerobic metabolism developed in many bacteria. Exactly the same aerobic mechanisms operate today in the mitochondria of eucaryotes, and there is increasing evidence that both mitochondria and chloroplasts evolved from aerobic bacteria that were endocytosed by primitive eucaryotic cells.

cool story, but no empirical evidence to prove it. They are making creation myths. They take evolution as a presumed fact, and they make up a story to fit that narrative. Again, this is backwards science.

There is no "irreducible complexity" here. It's a series of systems built over time to accommodate life. ATP synthase itself has several molecular structures. And an enzyme complex may not always be required to produce ATP.

The oxidation of formic acid in some present-day bacteria
In such anaerobic bacteria, including E. coli, the oxidation is mediated by an energy-conserving electron-transport chain in the plasma membrane. As indicated, the starting materials are formic acid and fumarate, and the products are succinate and CO2. Note that H+ is consumed inside the cell and generated outside the cell, which is equivalent to pumping H+ to the cell exterior. Thus, this membrane-bound electron-transport system can generate an electrochemical proton gradient across the plasma membrane. The redox potential of the formic acid-CO2 pair is -420 mV, while that of the fumarate-succinate pair is +30 mV.

thanks for inadvertently proving my point. Even anaerobic microbes have a full electron transport chain - using sulfates, nitrates, or sulfur as the electron accepter rather than oxygen. This shows that even the most rudimentary organism requires a complete electron transport chain. No organism has ever been found that doesn't require ATP synthase, since this is true, this demonstrates that the electron transport chain can not function without ATP synthase - which was my original point. Your round-about answer resolved nothing except a lengthy specious speech.




"One possible sequence is shown".... Just more faith-based statements. No real science to prove what they're saying.

**I noticed with your edit you removed that snippet that said "one possible sequence is shown". Stop hiding.




Oh boy this is a good one... "some major events that are believe to have occurred

No empirical evidence, just faith.


It was a nice attempt, but all you posted was theoretical speculation without any proof of its validity. electron transport chains require ATP synthase, therefore making it irreducibly complex. You showed no example where an organism can live without ATP synthase. Instead you showed how much these people "believe" in these theorized mechanisms, yet cannot find actual proof for it. Therefore, it is not science.

a reply to: cooperton

Write the equation that says that proton pumps do not evolve. Empirical evidence is in the equations and the laboratory data. It's all there. You just refuse to acknowledge it. Everything posted above has laboratory evidence.

So go ahead. Give it your best shot. Do the math and the equations that prove your hypothesis.

a reply to: cooperton


P.S. I'm not posting ANYTHING until you prove unequivocally that your description is proven both mathematically and experimentally. As I remember, you're the one who says everything is impossible. So go ahead, make my day.

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: cooperton


P.S. I'm not posting ANYTHING until you prove unequivocally that your description is proven both mathematically and experimentally. As I remember, you're the one who says everything is impossible. So go ahead, make my day.

I always know when I win an argument with you because you resort to demanding impractical things. Rather than discuss the straight-forward fact that all organisms require ATP synthase for the electron transport chain, you demand that I write a mathematical equation to prove a negative?? I'd love to.

ATP synthase is made of multiple sub-unit proteins. Each sub-unit protein is comprised of amino acid chains that form various functional groups that are meticulously necessary to generate proper form. The problem for evolution as that even generating one effective functional group via random mutation is estimated to be around 1/10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000...
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

according to this study: Source

To put things in perspective, the odds of winning the powerball lottery are 1/292,000,000

Now that super large number above is simply to arrive at some random functional group, let alone the exact functional group needed to create the desired function in that region of the amino acid sequence. Remember, each sub-unit requires many functional groups, and each ATP synthase requires many protein sub-units.

So if the probability for hitting a successful mutation to a functional group is approximately 1/10^67, and this would have to hit literally many, many times... therefore it is mathematically nearing absolute impossibility. About as possible as winning the lottery literally millions of times in a row. Not to mention that the rest of the electron transport chain is useless while it is desperately waiting for ATP synthase to randomly evolve... There is no way evolution can overcome these hurdles.

a reply to: cooperton

Answer the question. Do the math. Show the experimental data.

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: cooperton

Answer the question. Do the math. Show the experimental data.

Can I play
Just fill me in so I can show you how stupid your argument is please Phantom
I love this

Pretending you understand science is your first clear and observable (I have tested it as well repetably) failure 🌈🦄💃

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: cooperton

Answer the question. Do the math. Show the experimental data.

I just did. The odds of a functional group forming to create one component of a sub-unit of ATP synthase is approximately 1/10^67, and many of these functional groups are needed per sub-unit. That means the probability of ATP synthase evolving is nearly 0. You still haven't shown that the electron transport chain can work without ATP synthase, so therefore the electron transport chain is irreducibly complex.

originally posted by: jjkenobi
Why is nature so ordered? Why does science follow hard coded rules? Why is there not more chaos on this randomly evolved planet?

Exactly. A great question. Evolution is antithetical to the meticulously ordered universe we observe all around us. This shows that the theory simply does not belong. The physical laws are so precise, and so are biological organisms. We therefore must be the contrivance of a higher Intelligible Force

a reply to: cooperton



Answer the question. Do the math. Show the experimental data.

a reply to: cooperton

One last chance before you fail again.


Answer the question. Do the math. Show the experimental data.

a reply to: cooperton

Here's a list of references which contain the mathematical and experimental evidence. Pick one out and tell us why it's wrong. Then you can write a letter to the author.


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