Attorney General orders Me Too Kits to stop selling at-home sex assault kits in Michigan

a reply to: RazorV66

I was thinking the same thing, about time Michigan got something right. But I wouldn't put it past Whitmere to overturn this.

OP, thank you for posting this. I seriously doubt there is any type of disclaimer with these kits, warning the victim that they would be inadmissible in court, hence causing even more trauma for the real victims.
And I sure don't think its right, for this to be in the hands of some "crazy, man hating women" that are out there.
The potential to ruin lives is great here.

a reply to: chiefsmom
One of the reasons that I was hesitant to post this is because I am very restricted in what I can say or share on this topic.

When I say that members of the SART [Sexual Assault Response Team) are critiqued in the court room, that is actually putting it mildly. Activities that occur in your private life including your internet activity, can find its way into court, and I can assure you it is never to shed you in a positive light or used in your favor.

These kits have not escaped the eye of multiple law and justice based organizations, and they are already posting their views about this issue. My fear of this trend for self care with the aide of technology, is that it places the majority of us in danger without realizing it.

The home testing kits, the pushing for doctor and healthcare tele-medicine visits by way of your cell phone, are moves into a computerized real life world of the internet of everything.

Personally, I don't think we are ready to make the inevitable move to computerized medical care, especially when some many things can go wrong, and so many lives can be irreparably damaged.

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn

I am more concerned about the DNA of innocent men ending up in a database for sexual offenders than anything.

Like most Goverment data bases once your in, your in for life. I remember about 15 years ago all the wives in my neighborhood were in an up roar over a registered sex offender moving in. The guy was in his late 30s with a wife and kids, basically a very normal family, and I talked to him one day about it. He said he got busted when he just turned 18 and his girl friend was 15 whose parents pushed it as far as they could go, and so now he is marked for life. I agree that I do not truly know the whole story much past what he told me but he was very sincere. My point is this can be a very possible situation, and this kit looks to be a tool that could easily be used for malicious purposes.

One other scenario... black mailing... great tool for that too.

a reply to: Xtrozero
I wish I could say that this is something that never happens in our society but we all know good and evil can be the opposite side of the same coin.

The sad truth about rape is that those that are actual victims usually get buried underneath the headlines, the fanfare, and the #metoo social justice warriors. Those men and woman that used the process as a malicious tool to exact some kind of pain or vengeance, or to cover up a regretful decision or action, are few, but they do a lot of damage.

It is hard to believe that my job places me in a position of neutrality. It is not my job to determine quilt or innocence, right and wrong. My job starts with believing, and I do. I believe whatever my patient tells me until it is "proven" to not be true. My job is to provide medical care, mental care if needed, and emotional support. As I have said before, collection of evidence is just a small part of what I do.

I do not coerce, or dictate to a patient what they should do. That goes with reporting and moving forward with prosecution. Most people would be surprised at the number of women that have been brutally raped, by those they know and by strangers, that "refuse" to report or to move forward to prosecution, because the whole process is such a draining and traumatic experience, they feel it is an extension and drawing out of an event they just want to wipe from their minds.

The only thing that helps many endure the brutality of the event, is knowing that they may be able to stop some other person from going through what they went through.

These kits in the hands of the wrong people will be a nightmare for the entire system of justice.

a reply to: rickymouse

These kits should not be sold, women who were assaulted need to go to the hospital and get things done correctly.

Exactly. These kits are all about "the evidence" but there are other concerns like tissue damage or worse that could kill the women.

Also, I can not shake off the impression that this is used to evade a propper examination (as ugly as it might be for the victims).

Situation:
Had sex, but to make sure I do a swap. Who knows if the guy is an asshole or politician in a few years.

Of course after some years, they pull out the swab, cry wolf but have evaded a propper examination / after care. So now we have a case of a women accusing a men of rape, having evidence of sexual intercourse (his DNA on a swab).

Even if it does not proof the rape, it is evidence for the intercourse and thus gives the rest of the story credit.

I can totally see this happening and this is why such kits need to be forbidden.

a reply to: Oleandra88
Though I understand what you are saying, the truth of the matter is that the kit is not needed to carry out that particular scenario.

Much like the infamous "blue dress", DNA is easily collectable and very easy to preserve, if the goal is to use it for blackmail at a later date. The kit just may make it look a bit more threatening, but a pair of underwear, or any article of clothing that contains the evidence of the encounter, would likely work just as well, minus the cost. Plus it doesn't look quite as obvious that it was a set up.

With the masses being so conditioned to being videoed, and cameras being everywhere, I wouldn't be surprised to see some technology on the horizon that will be utilized by both parties as protection against assaults or accusations of assaults. What a brave new world we live in.

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

Thank you for explaining this to me.

You writing about technology reminded me of that black mirror episode, once again. Where they all have chips behind the ear that records everything they see and hear.

So basically everyone is a walking video camera with replay function ("show me your last week in 64x speed"). Would solve many issues and prevent heavy crimes.

I also remember a conversation about "being raped by the nanny", said in a condescending tone towards a non-chip wearer that she is not to be trusted with her memory. I know it was the crews intent to make that moment how it was and they achieved exactly the reaction they wanted.

A WTF moment.

originally posted by: Oleandra88
a reply to: rickymouse

These kits should not be sold, women who were assaulted need to go to the hospital and get things done correctly.

Exactly. These kits are all about "the evidence" but there are other concerns like tissue damage or worse that could kill the women.

Also, I can not shake off the impression that this is used to evade a propper examination (as ugly as it might be for the victims).

Situation:
Had sex, but to make sure I do a swap. Who knows if the guy is an asshole or politician in a few years.

Of course after some years, they pull out the swab, cry wolf but have evaded a propper examination / after care. So now we have a case of a women accusing a men of rape, having evidence of sexual intercourse (his DNA on a swab).

Even if it does not proof the rape, it is evidence for the intercourse and thus gives the rest of the story credit.

I can totally see this happening and this is why such kits need to be forbidden.

Yeah, I totally agree. There are woman out there that will try to extort money from someone they had sex with if that person comes into money, claiming rape. This is just a small percentage, but it makes real rapes appear less credible. If a woman gets raped, I believe the guy should be put on trial, but if she is persuaded to have sex, that is not rape. Getting a woman drunk to get something is not acceptable, but then again I would bet a million people here in the USA had their parents or grandparents start out their relationships like that. That is how teenage relationships sometimes start, meet someone at a bar or party and it leads to marriage and children. Not all events like that are evil, it is a part of society sometimes.

It used to be the norm for a girl to say no right away and after cuddling the advance became something more. A girl who gave in right away was deemed too easy, a slut. And always initially they would say no but then they would change their mind after a while...so nowadays the guy is supposed to tell them no because they initially said no I suppose.

Society got so complicated since I was a teenager. I am glad I grew up in the seventies with the Hippies making things more acceptable.

a reply to: rickymouse
Honestly I have been black out drunk before (as in, I passed out) but I never, never had the feeling under the influence of alcohol, that I can not say "no".

It might be something different with stuff like "K.O. drops", or other hypno-inducing drugs that are used for such rapes.

I disagree very much with this though:

It used to be the norm for a girl to say no right away and after cuddling the advance became something more. A girl who gave in right away was deemed too easy, a slut. And always initially they would say no but then they would change their mind after a while...so nowadays the guy is supposed to tell them no because they initially said no I suppose.

You might not have thought about the consequences when you wrote this. Regardless if I said yes, when I veto this yes with a no afterwards, it still means no. Logically for you to turn a no into a yes, you must have pushed her a bit after that.

No judgement here, because there are differences in pushing:

If I said no when you want to go under my bra but you push further, you will have problems holding a pen for a while.
If I said no when you ask for sex and you ask a second time, the only negative thing yet happened is you badgering me.

I can just walk away from you in the second example and laugh. The first one, not so much.


No offense, I am not sure if you thought about that when you wrote it.

a reply to: rickymouse

Forgot something. You know, men can be sluts too... No offense again, but have you ever thought about the dynamics between men and women? I mean specifically the "easy slut part".

I will say it bluntly, you never come to the conclusion that there are women who layed you on your back?

Situation:
I sit at a bar going through their scotch menu. I have good ears. I hear you talking about the red haired one at the bar and I hear someone has the balls to walk over to me to try to "knock me up later". Chances are I will not even look at you. You walk back and tell them that I am a stubborn bitch, high nosed, picky.

Situation:
I sit at a bar going through their scotch menu. Someone sits next to me, starts a normal conversation (no fancy first sentences). We chat, I like you and I am in the mood and up for a adventure, as you are too. An hour and a few scotch later we leave.

Now, you watch both situations and you tell me, am I a slut or am I picky.

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn

The sad truth about rape is that those that are actual victims usually get buried underneath the headlines, the fanfare, and the #metoo social justice warriors. Those men and woman that used the process as a malicious tool to exact some kind of pain or vengeance, or to cover up a regretful decision or action, are few, but they do a lot of damage.

I have posted a number of times that I see the #metoo movement as a bad thing. Everyone is trying to get on the bandwagon..he touched me on a date back in 1982, as example...

What this has all done is what you suggest in it actually desensitizes everyone to TRUE rape, TRUE sexual assault by lumping horrendous events in with what is just a bad date or normal human interaction, and they take that and try to ruin people's lives.

a reply to: Oleandra88

What I am saying is back in the seventies, not many girls, even though they wanted to get intimate, would say lets do it right away. I wasn't the kind of guy who would even make an advance when I was young. I had a lot of the nicest looking girls in my town as friends and people thought I was gay because I did not go out with them. They were friends, I did not go out with friends. The majority of the best looking girls were targeted by guys that were control jerks. I did not want to start getting into that competition over a girl. I knew if you went out with them, sooner or later you would no longer be friends, what I did not understand is that when they got married, they could not be your friend anymore because of societies norms that stated it could not be so.


Yes, there are guys who were sluts too. I never in my post said I ever said anyone was a slut, I said girls did not want to get labeled as a slut, they did not want to give the impression they were easy.

Like I mentioned, I had some women as friends and Women often are worse than guys in talking about sex. You know what I am saying is true.

I almost got my clothes tore off going to the bathroom at a strip bar I had went to with my first wife and her girlfriend when I was about twenty two. When I got back to the table, I got a drink thrown in my face by my Ex-wife who was just my girlfriend at the time. She blamed me for not fighting back when the women were trying to tear off my shirt, all the buttons were shot.

I learned never to go into a strip bar when male dancers were there. That was back in the mid seventies.

Any time I hear about a court restricting free commerce, it bothers me. It bothered me this time when I read the title.

But...

There is, IMO anyway, a point where the government does have a role in restricting commerce. That role is where fraud exists. We have government agencies that monitor for this: everything from how accurate the gas pump is to whether the label on a can of beans reflects the actual amount of beans in the can. These are good and proper uses of government powers, as free commerce cannot exist without also being fair commerce.

After reading the OP, I now consider this one of those times when maybe we do need the government stepping in and saying "You can't do that."

My reasoning is simple: in the case of someone sexually assaulting a woman, a serious crime has been committed. The violator should be harshly punished for justice (at least what we can do to try and create actual justice) to be served. In our society, one is innocent of a crime until proven guilty, and even the guilty are entitled by right to their day in court. The courtroom is a battlezone between lawyers, with each side willing and able to use any method to win their case... and that would include lying, distracting, and theatrics.

In short, any decent lawyer could shoot one of these kits down in a New York heartbeat. "Do you have any proof of when you executed the testing?" "If you were so distraught, why did you order a kit instead of reporting the incident to authorities?" This is a sure way for the perpetrator of an actual crime to go free. Yet, it is being marketed as a method to ensure one is legally protected, the exact opposite of what the kits accomplish if used instead of actual medical examination.

That is fraud.

I will also add my thoughts to the discussion on being labeled a sex offender. I have known people in my life who certainly deserved be on a sex offender's list somewhere, and I have known people who did not. Whether or not they deserved to be there seems to have little bearing on whether or not they were there. it was common at one time for underage girls with fake IDs to approach men in order to... well, you know... and then if caught, try to save face by announcing their actual age. A man could be tricked easily into escorting a young lady he truly believed to be 19 to his place... after all, she said she was 19, she was drinking in a bar, she acted 19, she looked 19... only to find out later that she is actually not yet 17 and what we used to call "jailbait." Too late, of course.

On the other hand, i have known a few Casanovas that would intentionally target an underage girl and simply keep her happy and/or threaten her to get away with doing their deeds.

There are also many women who use their gender as a weapon against the men they meet. It's a way to get money and favors, receive attention, or just take out frustrations. The law does not allow this, but it also encourages it by the fact that women are to some degree protected inside that courtroom battlefield. A decent lawyer can use heavy-handed tactics of his opponent towards a woman seen as fragile and score major points with a jury.

The sex offender laws are biased against men in general. Strangely enough, the one thing that probably saved me in my younger days was the fact that I was a drunk. I was such a serious drunk that I didn't go to bars... I lived in one! So I rarely found myself in the position of being approached by a fraud when I was drunk.

TheRedneck

a reply to: rickymouse
Very interesting. Before I dive into the topic, I want to say it was just an example, I did not want to paint you in a bad light and I do not want to do now.

Women often are worse than guys in talking about sex. You know what I am saying is true.

I guess it is like that, can not deny it, reflecting about myself

What I feel swings in your post, but I know it is not your opinion, is that "easy girl" thing. Men are okay when they screw around, it is expected from them and it is justified by spreading your genes. I can acknowledge the "historic reasons" it is like it is. They are the heros then.

We women can only loose if we do not find the perceived middle line between being "too easy" and "too picky". That middle line is different for everyone so we are bound to be judged one way or another.

Of course not every man is like that.

Do not even get me started on the "do not dress like that if you do not want to get prolonged looks on your breasts". I have no issues with my body and I go to "naked public pools" and beaches preferably. So I can not speak for everyone, never can. But it is not about the looks. Not every women who dresses on the lighter side, signals they are ready for mating.

But on a hot summer day in the city, it is somehow supposed that I have to dress myself up to the neck or else "I want to be stared at". It is just hot you know, and those bags in front of me need cooling too.

Not addressing you but the male reader who thinks all women are sluts or want to signal they need penetration ASAP. Women can be the same by the way. We can be very cruel to each other and use the same tactics that men use. It is so ironic.

originally posted by: Oleandra88
a reply to: rickymouse
Very interesting. Before I dive into the topic, I want to say it was just an example, I did not want to paint you in a bad light and I do not want to do now.

Women often are worse than guys in talking about sex. You know what I am saying is true.

I guess it is like that, can not deny it, reflecting about myself

What I feel swings in your post, but I know it is not your opinion, is that "easy girl" thing. Men are okay when they screw around, it is expected from them and it is justified by spreading your genes. I can acknowledge the "historic reasons" it is like it is. They are the heros then.

We women can only loose if we do not find the perceived middle line between being "too easy" and "too picky". That middle line is different for everyone so we are bound to be judged one way or another.

Of course not every man is like that.

Do not even get me started on the "do not dress like that if you do not want to get prolonged looks on your breasts". I have no issues with my body and I go to "naked public pools" and beaches preferably. So I can not speak for everyone, never can. But it is not about the looks. Not every women who dresses on the lighter side, signals they are ready for mating.

But on a hot summer day in the city, it is somehow supposed that I have to dress myself up to the neck or else "I want to be stared at". It is just hot you know, and those bags in front of me need cooling too.

Not addressing you but the male reader who thinks all women are sluts or want to signal they need penetration ASAP. Women can be the same by the way. We can be very cruel to each other and use the same tactics that men use. It is so ironic.

I remember back in the sixties listening to my mother and aunt having "the talk" with my sister as to dressing appropriately. It was a different time back then, a girl who dressed sexy didn't have any chance of winning a rape case. That was not a right way of thinking in our society and I am glad that changed. Bikinis were considered too revealing in the sixties, a guy probably would have got off with rape charges if the woman was wearing a Bikini. That was wrong.

Part of my mothers speech to my sister was that women should dress appropriately at work. And their behavior should not be so that the boss would be targeting her. Not to even give anyone the idea that they could try to get them to go out with them. That was a common speech by mothers back in the late sixties evidently, at least in our town.

I see lots of things in the new society that are better than it used to be, but lately the liberals and progressives are getting a little overboard, demanding that people from thirty years ago should be liable for ongoing changes in society, most of those people are not like that anymore, they changed too to fit into the evolving society. I see a lot of that in politics and people going after people who did things forty years ago that were socially acceptable at the time. That is wrong. It is like saying that if you broke the law before the law was formed, they can go back and toss you in jail now for committing a crime when it was not illegal.

I used to skinny dip when I was young, that is not something that is new, the young have been skinnydipping since we became a species. Nude beaches were not common though, a lot of Christians frowned on things like that.

a reply to: rickymouse

I can be glad that I live in the current times, then.

Yes I agree, I also dress appropriately at work. No décolleté visible. No flirting with the boss.

I see a lot of that in politics and people going after people who did things forty years ago that were socially acceptable at the time. That is wrong.

The governments and companies of this world are already collecting stuff on you and me all the time. If I connect your observation (you are not alone) to this...scary times ahead maybe.

Nude beaches are great
We have many of them here, they are called FKK-beaches or lakes "free body culture beach". In some public swimming pools you have to leave, either it is your clothes that vanish, or you, at a certain day in the week. Be naked or go. Only towels allowed for sitting.

originally posted by: Oleandra88
a reply to: rickymouse

I can be glad that I live in the current times, then.

Yes I agree, I also dress appropriately at work. No décolleté visible. No flirting with the boss.

I see a lot of that in politics and people going after people who did things forty years ago that were socially acceptable at the time. That is wrong.

The governments and companies of this world are already collecting stuff on you and me all the time. If I connect your observation (you are not alone) to this...scary times ahead maybe.

Nude beaches are great

We have many of them here, they are called FKK-beaches or lakes "free body culture beach". In some public swimming pools you have to leave, either it is your clothes that vanish, or you, at a certain day in the week. Be naked or go. Only towels allowed for sitting.

When I was young (less than thirty six) and working and in good shape, I would consider doing something like that. Now, I look a little like this fellow after being retired for many years. www.youtube.com...

Haha, I spent a while deciding to click that link or not. Was slightly pacified when I got your joke

a reply to: TheRedneck

After reading the OP, I now consider this one of those times when maybe we do need the government stepping in and saying "You can't do that."

I would like to think that this product will die on the vine. I pray that people learn quickly to not waste their money, and cause this company to go belly up before it even makes it out of dock.

I can't help but think of all the unprocessed rape kits sitting on shelves around the country. How would they justify processing of the #metoo kits, with so many legitimate kits waiting to be processed?

An Epidemic of Disbelief Across the country, as many as 200,000 rape kits sit unopened in police storage while assailants—the people whose genetic fingerprints are decisively coded within such kits—are able to dodge prosecution and, in some cases, strike again.

www.theatlantic.com...

a reply to: rickymouse

Nude beaches were not common though, a lot of Christians frowned on things like that.

That's something I have never figured out. If mankind was made in the image of God, why are Christians so ashamed of the image of God?

The human body is nothing to be ashamed of. We need to get over that.

TheRedneck