Trying to resolve 9/11

originally posted by: Hulseyreport

History lesson is biased.

Isn't everything you post also biased?

That is the history, of the evolution of Thermite Theory, as I witnessed it.

originally posted by: Hulseyreport



How it can building drop quicker than free fall?
 

Dude, I kinda explained that to you in the post you're quoting. Momentum Transfer. Remember?

You really should of tried that transmission and chain experiment I suggested to you . If you had, you would now have a very clear understanding of momentum transfer.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: waypastvne

I would say you have painted Hulseyreport into a corner.

It's always fun to watch them dance.

originally posted by: Hulseyreport
It cost a lot of cash to do this on your own., and i suspect this may be the real reason this taking so long having now looked into it.  Again i could be incorrect and there another reason.  

Mark Basile was given 6,000 dollars 5 1/2 years ago to have the independent test performed.


So far....... Nothing.

Fully fueled jumbo jets at flank speed are perfectly capable of collapsing WTC 1&2, literally millions saw it with their own eyes.

Sure, "proving" controlled demo also proves a conspiracy, but it's not the only way....there's much more interesting evidence.

Oddly, I was supposed to be there at noon 9/11, in the plaza to display some new Audis, but I skipped the event and slept in.

originally posted by: waypastvne

originally posted by: Hulseyreport

You provide a formula for a paint mixture? 

That is not a paint formula, It's the paint formula.

Its the formula for the Laclede standard steel joist paint that was sprayed on the WTC 1&2 joist, made by the Leclede Steel Company.

There was around 600,000 sq meters of this paint sprayed on the joist. When one floor collapsed on to the next, the joist stretched and buckled, the paint and fire proofing chipped off, and was blown out the windows by the collapsing floors.

This is how the paint chips and the iron spheres from cement in the fire proofing were blown around the city along with the dust.

It's a paint chip not thermite.

Debunkers like yourself obviously can not deal with the information analyzed in this study
Harrit and analysts declared the aluminum was free. The composition was described. 
Red Layer when ignited produces Molten Iron so the chips are thermatic. 
What stopping the debunkers mixing the paint ingredients listed here and later analyzing it? They can procure all the ingredients you see there and operate their own experiments?
The complication that debunkers overlook is when baked the paint softens and flakes and when heated long enough it possibly shift to a powder. 
Harrit group placed the red primer paint applied at the Towers in a solvent and it softened and dissolved away. The placed the red/gray chips in the same paint solvent, and the chip remained the same. That establishes the chips are not paint in regards to this experiment. But since the debunkers are positive, it was Leclede paint- they should have by now completed their own experiments. They're no special ingredient in the Laclede paint that you can't purchase yourself and have it blended in paint shop!
Another matter the debunkers ignore is the Aluminum was observed as Nano-sized particles and there all uniform in shape. There no way the red/gray chips are paint then. 
The fact the chips ignite at low temps suggests this, not ordinary thermite you buy yourself. Liquid Iron produced by this rules out the paint.
The chips are not going to naturally form, end of the story. 
I welcome more debunkers getting interested and carrying out their own assessments. They're likely still samples around since the chips are solid. As long as chips are kept independent from contamination. Instead of guessing what happened here to do the tests as the truther community has. 

originally posted by: waypastvne

originally posted by: Hulseyreport



How it can building drop quicker than free fall?
 

Dude, I kinda explained that to you in the post you're quoting. Momentum Transfer. Remember?

You really should of tried that transmission and chain experiment I suggested to you . If you had, you would now have a very clear understanding of momentum transfer.

I have requested you and friend two times now at what stage did the building travel faster than freefall?
You have not explained at what stage and time of the collapse this arose. We already know the rate of fall- but you claim it moved beyond free fall and sped up even faster then that.
Present me the graphs of this movement from the roofline to the bottom. What floors collapsed faster?
You stating facts that you have not explained in any serious way to be true. 
Momentum transfer is not something you associate with Freefall ( removal of structural components below the upper floors) Where is the collision starting point? Provide examples that you think are relevant. 

a reply to: Hulseyreport

You

Harrit and analysts declared the aluminum was free.

This is what the study states.

Using a conventional quantification routine, it was found that the aluminum significantly exceeded the oxygen present (ap- proximately a 3:1 ratio). Thus, while some of the aluminum may be oxidized, there is insufficient oxygen present to ac- count for all of the aluminum; some of the aluminum must therefore exist in elemental form in the red material.

Harrit and Jones never did anything to prove the aluminum was free to carry a thermite reaction. They assumed it was there.


Sorry.

Name one other study that backs Harrit.

And here is your list by the way....

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Hulseyreport

You

They conducted a volume of tests and they claim the chips burn at low temps.

But not for paint chips and industrial coatings.

Please cite where Jones actually tested the dust for free elemental Al2 to confirm it could support a thermite reaction? Please cite where the dust was tested in an inert atmosphere to prove it could sustain a thermite reaction.


originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Hulseyreport

You

Debunkers claim it paint chips based on nothing but opinion.

False statement by you

Analysis of Red/Gray Chips in WTC Dust

Dr. James Millette
MVA Scientific Consultants
www.MVAinc.com

February 20-25 2012
American Academy of Forensic Science
www.AAFS.org
2012 Annual Meeting
Atlanta, Georgia
www.mvainc.com...

aneta.org...

Conclusions

The red/gray chips found in the WTC dust at four sites in New York City are consistent with a carbon steel coated with an epoxy resin that contains primarily iron oxide and kaolin clay pigments.

There is no evidence of individual elemental aluminum particles of any size in the red/gray chips, therefore the red layer of the red/gray chips is not thermite or nano-thermite.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Hulseyreport

You

Stop claiming Dr Millete work scientific. We have never looked at his red/grey chips.

Sad to see you resort to false arguments.

Link to study below.

A false statement ?

This qualified person, Replication of Bentham Thermite study by James Millette, PhD
of MVA Scientific Consultants

Determined this

Conclusions

aneta.org...

The red/gray chips found in the WTC dust at four sites in New York City are consistent with a carbon steel coated with an epoxy resin that contains primarily iron oxide and kaolin clay pigments.

There is no evidence of individual elemental aluminum particles of any size in the red/gray chips, therefore the red layer of the red/gray chips is not thermite or nano-thermite.

Please quote the study on what analysis was conducted, the result. And cite what test Millette should have conducted and did not?

Debunkers claim it paint chips based on nothing but opinion.

So you admit this is a false statement by you.

You

That false also - independents have analysed the chips and affirmed there was thermite materials embedded in the skin of the chips.

Quote where you posted cited evidence and linked to cited evidence that “ independents have analysed the chips and affirmed there was thermite materials embedded in the skin of the chips.“. Or is that a false statement by you.

I asked, “Please cite where Jones actually tested the dust for free elemental Al2 to confirm it could support a thermite reaction? Please cite where the dust was tested in an inert atmosphere to prove it could sustain a thermite reaction.”

Quote what posts you answered the above.

a reply to: Hulseyreport

So. Your up to at least three blatantly false claims? With no I was wrong statement by you?

You claimed the Harrit Jones results were verified by an independent lab. Is that false. Name the lab? Cite the results, and link to a source?

Why should we find your claims credible at this point?

a reply to: Hulseyreport

So the best Harrit and Jones could do was claim there was aluminum oxide that was free of the silica and assume there was free elemental Al2 for a thermite reaction?

J U N K SIENCE

A legitimate study would be a paper testing if the WTC Dust could burn in an inert atmosphere, and documenting the results. Then turn unreacted samples and reacted samples to a certified forensic labs that doesn’t treat established testing as a half aced science project for analysis and chemical composition.

XEDS spectrogram confirmed there was free AIumimum in the red layer part of the chip ( I added the graph) For me well know debate to be had, The sole way it can be false, is your fellow debunkers accusing them of faking experiment to land at the predetermined result. And that what you people do all the time. 
What is causing the red layer chip to flare up and generate high temps if there no aluminum in the red layer? You not reading the evidence. The calorimeter confirmed these are thermatic chips.
If there other chemical elements blended with the aluminum that would show up in tests they carried out. They're going to be percentage distribution that exhibit more or less of each one of those chemicals.
Harrit tested the red primer paint and did not match the red/grey chips.
Debunker can show its paint chips by performing a similar MEK test of the Leclade paint. They have not appeared to have done so? Why not? 

Dr Millete indicates their Iron Oxide and where he contradicts the free Aluminum- he states its a Kaolin pay pigment ( i assuming here he means aluminum silicate?  So obvius he running with leclade paint explanation?
It be fascinating to discover if this paint was hinted at before Milette tests or later. Dr Milette claimed this before everyone was reporting about the Leclade paint then it be interesting. From what we recognize though Dr Millete paint chip is same configuration of the Mcclade paint. Since he never exhibited the experiments and illustrations of what he did, there no way of knowing he discovered the same red/gray chips in the dust. He could be studying the wrong material?
You need to get out of habit accusing people of false statements. I produced evidence of the experiments they did, that you don't understand it not my problem. 

a reply to: Hulseyreport

You

XEDS spectrogram confirmed there was free AIumimum in the red layer part of the chip ( I added the graph)

I don’t think anyone is disputing there was Aluminum in the paint / epoxy chips.

Side note: Can you cite what thermite recipe calls for epoxy by the way.....

Is the below the test used?
How did they now it was free thermite

Energy-dispersive X-ray spectroscopy

en.m.wikipedia.org...

Energy-dispersive X-ray spectroscopy (EDS, EDX, EDXS or XEDS), sometimes called energy dispersive X-ray analysis (EDXA) or energy dispersive X-ray microanalysis (EDXMA), is an analytical technique used for the elemental analysis or chemical characterization of a sample. It relies on an interaction of some source of X-ray excitation and a sample. Its characterization capabilities are due in large part to the fundamental principle that each element has a unique atomic structure allowing a unique set of peaks on its electromagnetic emission spectrum[2] (which is the main principle of spectroscopy).

It seems XEDS spectrogram can only give if a particular atom is present. How can you use XEDS spectrogram to determine if the element is bounded to another element or not?

This is all I can find on the supposed free aluminum?

benthamopen.com...

It was discovered in this process that a significant migration and segregation of aluminum had occurred in the red-chip material. This allowed us to assess whether some of the aluminum was in elemental form.

What test was conducted to prove it was pure Al2. Please quote what test was ran that the aluminum found was not bound to another chemical?

Again

The next XEDS spectrum (Fig. 17) was acquired from a region that showed a high concentration of aluminum. Using a conventional quantification routine, it was found that the aluminum significantly exceeded the oxygen present (ap- proximately a 3:1 ratio). Thus, while some of the aluminum may be oxidized, there is insufficient oxygen present to ac- count for all of the aluminum; some of the aluminum must therefore exist in elemental form in the red material. This is an important result. Aluminum particles are covered with a layer of aluminum oxide irrespective of size, thus it is rea- sonable to find a significant oxygen content with the alumi- num, given the very high surface area to volume ratio of these very fine particles.
benthamopen.com...

If they confirmed the presence of actual pure Al2, why are they talking about the ratio of found aluminum atoms to oxygen atoms. They are assuming pure Al2 is present. Funny they ignore telling if there was any silicone atoms present and in what ratio to show if the aluminum was or was not from Al2SiO5?

Junk science


Please cite where the Harrit / Jones analysis was verified by an independent lab.

Please state what test was ran to show the aluminum found was elemental and free to carry a thermite reaction.

Please state where Harrit and Jones tried to burn the WTC dust in an inert atmosphere to prove it could support a thermite reaction.

a reply to: Hulseyreport

You

The calorimeter confirmed these are thermatic chips.

How did the calorimeter prove they are thermite chips. The calorimeter only showed an energy output that can be attributed to anything that burns in the presence of oxygen. Harrit / Jones was hoping it would be a reading similar to thermite. It wasn’t. So they made the crap up about super thermite. Now. If the Calorimeter test was ran with hot nitrogen instead of oxygen, and showed a energy output, then Harrit / Jones would have something. And didn’t they say they were going to run such a test, but never released the results?

Each element has a special atomic structure!!!!
The different peak ranges will be displayed in results. Look at the graph- AIumimum present. We recognize that a fact from XEDS results.
How we recognize it was not bonded a MEK test would prove it. If Aluminum was bonded with another chemical it would not have separated in the MEK solution. In the solution, it showed silcon was not blended with the Aluminum. 
We have lot of confidence from two tests iron oxide and elemental aluminum present in the red layer.
Aluminum Silicate- contains Alumimum oxide. That why they could paint the floors trussses using this pigment- it will not react.
Aluminum reacts with the Iron oxide and takes its Oxygen a ( reaction of atom occur) that why it heats up. Since they discovered very little Oxygen i believe this why they felt the red/gray chips are also unreacted thermite?
The biggest failure on Debunker side to get it paints dissolve in MEK solution they don't stay solid. There literally no way the paint chips can be the red/gray chips since placed in the same solution nothing developed to the change the chips shape or formation.  Harrit left in there for 55 hours. 
What supports it not paint when heated the red/gray chips to just 400c the energy release was enormous molten Iron spheres started to form. There no standard thermite that behaves at those temps, end of the story. 
Dr Milette also never ignited the paint chips by DSC he had that documented- so we have no indication if his paint chips are identical. Debunkers know this to be accurate.  

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Hulseyreport

You

The calorimeter confirmed these are thermatic chips.

How did the calorimeter prove they are thermite chips. The calorimeter only showed an energy output that can be attributed to anything that burns in the presence of oxygen. Harrit / Jones was hoping it would be a reading similar to thermite. It wasn’t. So they made the crap up about super thermite. Now. If the Calorimeter test was ran with hot nitrogen instead of oxygen, and showed a energy output, then Harrit / Jones would have something. And didn’t they say they were going to run such a test, but never released the results?

It measures what happens when chips are ignited. They're measuring the heat. You don't get molten Iron from just oxygen. There to be a chemical reaction taking place.

a reply to: Hulseyreport

Again..

Quote where I said there was no aluminum in the dust. I said there is no proof of Al2 to react on a thermite reaction.

You

How we recognize it was not bonded a MEK test would prove it. If Aluminum was bonded with another chemical it would not have separated in the MEK solution.

Your confusing that MEK was used to remove the physically supporting epoxy matrix.


The MEK is a solvent to break down epoxy coatings.

Why would MEK break the chemical bond with silica. Why would MEK act differently concerning Aluminum vs Aluminum Silicate?

Aluminum Silica is basically a clay?

Considerable amount of oily waste is generated from petroleum refinery in Malaysia. A typical refinery produces about 40 tons of sludge per month. Disposing via landfilling (common method) is becoming less accepted and more expensive. As a result, refineries and other facilities have accumulated large volumes of this waste in makeshift landfills or other storage areas. For this reason, solvent extraction method has been selected for oil recovery and to minimize the solid waste. Three solvents (chloroform, MEK, and n-hexane) and two extraction methods (sludge–solvent mixing method, and Soxhlet apparatus) were applied to recover the oil from the refinery sludge. Soxhlet extraction method has shown higher efficiency in extraction than sludge-solvent mixing method. Soxhlet extraction method using MEK solvent can recover about 48.3 % of oil, as compared to mixing method which accounts to only about 32.5 % of recovered oil. It has an added recovery of about 7.1 %, 15.8 % and 5.7 % for n-hexane, MEK and chloroform solvents respectively. FTIR results confirmed that MEK has the highest capability to extract hydrocarbon from refinery waste.

www.researchgate.net...

I don’t think MEK reacts with Aluminum nor aluminum silica.

originally posted by: Hulseyreport

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Hulseyreport

You

The calorimeter confirmed these are thermatic chips.

How did the calorimeter prove they are thermite chips. The calorimeter only showed an energy output that can be attributed to anything that burns in the presence of oxygen. Harrit / Jones was hoping it would be a reading similar to thermite. It wasn’t. So they made the crap up about super thermite. Now. If the Calorimeter test was ran with hot nitrogen instead of oxygen, and showed a energy output, then Harrit / Jones would have something. And didn’t they say they were going to run such a test, but never released the results?

It measures what happens when chips are ignited. They're measuring the heat. You don't get molten Iron from just oxygen. There to be a chemical reaction taking place.

What.

Calorimeter just measures how much energy a substance gives off when it burns. That’s all it does.

A calorimeter is a device used to measure the heat flow of a chemical reaction or physical change. The process of measuring this heat is called calorimetry.

www.thoughtco.com...

You know. Like calories in food.

a reply to: FlyingFox

Funny, the engineer who helped design the towers tells the exact opposite from your claim. In fact, the towers were designed to withstand the impact of a fully loaded 707. In fact, the towers DID that.

What a conundrum--to believe you or him?

a reply to: neutronflux

I do distinctly remember a presentation by Dr. Harrit where MEK usage "was the way it is done", not in "Oil Recovery from Refinery Waste" applications though.

From 8 minutes 40 secs to be precise.

Or

youtu.be...

a reply to: democracydemo

What I was showing in that MEK is used to pull things out of petroleum sludge. One of the items in sludge might be clay. Aluminum silica is a type of clay. The correct wording that Harrit should use is MEK was being used to dissolve the epoxy matrix. MEK is not going to draw out aluminum. The wording of the paper is “ significant migration and segregation of aluminum had occurred”. Please explain how MEK can cause a migration of aluminum when all it does is dissolve epoxy. The MEK is going to leave aluminum silica behind. Is that false? Can you cite otherwise. And if the MEK was breaking chemical bonds to make a “migration” of aluminum, then the aluminum wasn’t it the form of Al2 for a thermite reaction in the first place.

Now. State what test Harrit and Jones specifically conducted to conform there was free aluminum in the form of Al2 for a thermite reaction? You cannot. The paper specifically shows they assumed the presence of Al2 off the oxygen atom ratio. They didn’t do any additional testing to show the aluminum wasn’t bonded to something other than oxygen.

The next XEDS spectrum (Fig. 17) was acquired from a region that showed a high concentration of aluminum. Using a conventional quantification routine, it was found that the aluminum significantly exceeded the oxygen present (ap- proximately a 3:1 ratio). Thus, while some of the aluminum may be oxidized, there is insufficient oxygen present to ac- count for all of the aluminum; some of the aluminum must therefore exist in elemental form in the red material. This is an important result. Aluminum particles are covered with a layer of aluminum oxide irrespective of size, thus it is rea- sonable to find a significant oxygen content with the alumi- num, given the very high surface area to volume ratio of these very fine particles.

The next XEDS spectrum (Fig. 17) was acquired from a region that showed a high concentration of aluminum. Using a conventional quantification routine, it was found that the aluminum significantly exceeded the oxygen present (ap- proximately a 3:1 ratio). Thus, while some of the aluminum may be oxidized, there is insufficient oxygen present to ac- count for all of the aluminum; some of the aluminum must therefore exist in elemental form in the red material. This is an important result. Aluminum particles are covered with a layer of aluminum oxide irrespective of size, thus it is rea- sonable to find a significant oxygen content with the alumi- num, given the very high surface area to volume ratio of these very fine particles.

The next XEDS spectrum (Fig. 17) was acquired from a region that showed a high concentration of aluminum. Using a conventional quantification routine, it was found that the aluminum significantly exceeded the oxygen present (ap- proximately a 3:1 ratio). Thus, while some of the aluminum may be oxidized, there is insufficient oxygen present to ac- count for all of the aluminum; some of the aluminum must therefore exist in elemental form in the red material. This is an important result. Aluminum particles are covered with a layer of aluminum oxide irrespective of size, thus it is rea- sonable to find a significant oxygen content with the alumi- num, given the very high surface area to volume ratio of these very fine particles.

benthamopen.com...

And the results of Harrit / Jones was never verified by an independent lab. Is that false.

They never published the results of trying to burn the dust in an inert atmosphere. Is that false.

Cite what test was ran to conclusively show there was free aluminum. They only assumed there was free aluminum based on oxygen ratio, without addressing what other atoms there were. And in what rations. And what tests did they ran to show the Aluminum was not chemically bound to a compound vs oxygen?

The study is junk science