Opposition cardinals go on with declaration of "truths" against pope Francis

originally posted by: danbuter
The "innovative reform" is people wanting the Church to change God's laws to suit their own sins. This current Pope is an appeaser to everyone. He apparently doesn't understand that weakening the Church to make non-believers happy will not change their minds, and will, in fact, anger the faithful that he should be concerned about.

The Pope seems to be following the teachings of Jesus and not the man-made laws and interpretations found in the Old Testament.

Third, Cardinal Burke and the pope's critics are right; the pope is presenting a new way of thinking about moral issues in Chapter 8 of Amoris Laetitia. He is moving the church away from an ethics based on rules to one based on discernment. Facts, circumstances, and motivations matter in such an ethics.

Under this approach to moral theology, it is possible to see holiness and grace in the lives of imperfect people, even those in irregular marriages. Rather than seeing the world as divided between the good and the bad, we are all seen as wounded sinners for whom the church serves as a field hospital where the Eucharist is food for the wounded rather than a reward for the perfect. Gone is any attempt to scare people into being good.

www.ncronline.org...

Sounds like something Jesus would teach, to me.

originally posted by: InTheLight
While Pope Francis is away looking to make peace, what are the cardinals and others there doing - writing declarations to take us back to the dark ages and secure themselves in their golden castle.

Francis is the head of that golden castle, and he perpetually does nothing about their polices while chastising the rest of the world over their own policies and practices.
biblehub.com...

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Francis can't seem to get his own house in order, so perhaps he should focus his attention within and clean up that reeking mess before he "shoulds" the rest of the world to death. He is a hypocrite.

a reply to: 2012newstart

Why Not just Poison him Already , it has been Done Before ..........

a reply to: burdman30ott6

I think it boils down to faith. Either these Cardinal have faith in the machinations that arise from their doctrine, or they're losing it, or they already lost it.

a reply to: InTheLight

I will start from your quote, and will continue wherever it leads me

well, the so much discussed Amoris Laetitia says nothing new. The possibility of a second marriage.

The Orthodox Churches that are fully recognized by Rome to have 7 valid sacraments, allow for 3 marriages for centuries (without encouraging the people to divorce). And for married priesthood too.

Is it possible, the ongoing battle inside the Catholic Church to result in stronger Orthodox Churches in the world? What we witness in Russia is a real revival of religious life. A great power under the Christian banner. Not even Trump can deny that.

Because after all, if all our religion is only for the Sunday show up at mass, and we continue living for the Mammon and not for God, what use of it? Regardless how we call ourselves. My direct first hand experience with ultra-conservative catholics in USA is, they are not much different than agnostics when it comes to the MONEY. The modern day Golden calf. No matter what they preach, their deeds expose them more than anything else.

Weren't the conservatives at the helm of the Catholic Church for centuries? Then why the Catholic Church is in such a bad fix? It is not because Vatican II. It is long before Vatican II.

Pope Francis may not be a saint, but at least he tries to change something to better. He doesn't change dogmas. He changes things that have been changed in history already.

Burke is a spiteful guy who was demoted by this Pope from #2 in the heirarchy to a non-job liaising with the Knights of St. John for overstepping his authority and challenging the Pope. He went from a man of power to a floating apex.

Look at his authoritarian moves when he was Archbishop of St. Louis and he tried to take a Polish Church from some stubborn Polacks who just wanted a mass in Polish. Threats? Stubborn Polacks don't respond well to threats. He was outwitted at every turn. No priests assigned? They called Poland and got their own. He went to court to force the issue. The judge ruled that "the Archbishop may own the souls of wayward St. Stanislaus parishioners, but the St. Stanislaus Parish Corporation owns its own property."

www.saintstan.org...

ETA: Mormons and Catholics aren't the only religions with abuse scandal coverups. It seems that holier-than-thou types are also hypocrites. www.vindy.com...

a reply to: 2012newstart

Yes, I won't judge him because I am not in his shoes. I can only acknowledge his deeds as good. His next visit will be to Iran and I hope peace can be reached there too.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Through his deeds, so far, to me, he looks to be a man of action.

a reply to: pteridine

That is disgusting. Absolute power corrupts even the holier-than-thou.

I was nominally raised Catholic but experience has made me very much Agnostic.

I think the very fact that these reactionary Cardinal's are trying to oppose Pope Francis suggests that he is at least attempting some sort of modernising reform.

Its true The Catholic Church sits on an obscene amount of wealth and hidden knowledge.
Who knows what good they could do with all that?
And their complicity in the failure to take any action against the relatively high number of its ordained ministry involved in paedophile activities is simply inexcusable.

I suspect The Curia and The Synod of Bishops dislike much of Pope Francis's personal beliefs and possible intentions.
I think The Vatican bankers and their 'associates' will also be very distrustful of Francis.

Reform will not happen over night.....only way to eat an elephant is one piece at a time.

a reply to: Freeborn

I was immersed in Roman Catholicism for the most impressionable years of my life, but like you experience, a presence of mind and a questioning nature, plus reading the teachings of Jesus and some of the unpublished gospels left me in a position where I seek only an intimate union with the creator, whatever that may be; wherever that will take me.

originally posted by: InTheLight
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Through his deeds, so far, to me, he looks to be a man of action.

Beware wolves who come dressed as sheep. I think you're seeing what you want to see from this fraud and missing the massive wall of hypocrisy and lies he's standing on.

What "deeds" has he done? Cajoling others into performing deeds doesn't equal "action" it equals cajoling. To date I've seen him do nothing of substance, heard him say a lot, and witnessed him clearly acting the opposite of his public words. The most impactful actions he's been responsible for have included covering up sexual abuses of children, interjection of his opinion into forums where it is neither wanted nor intelligent enough to be deserved, and constant attacks on the traditions of an institution which is truly built on a foundation of Tradition.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: InTheLight
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Through his deeds, so far, to me, he looks to be a man of action.

Beware wolves who come dressed as sheep. I think you're seeing what you want to see from this fraud and missing the massive wall of hypocrisy and lies he's standing on.

What "deeds" has he done? Cajoling others into performing deeds doesn't equal "action" it equals cajoling. To date I've seen him do nothing of substance, heard him say a lot, and witnessed him clearly acting the opposite of his public words. The most impactful actions he's been responsible for have included covering up sexual abuses of children, interjection of his opinion into forums where it is neither wanted nor intelligent enough to be deserved, and constant attacks on the traditions of an institution which is truly built on a foundation of Tradition.

I don't see what you see.

a reply to: InTheLight

OK, what "deeds" do you see. then?

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: InTheLight

OK, what "deeds" do you see. then?

I posted one deed above where him and the Imam signed a peace declaration. Now, he will be soon headed off to Iran to do the same. Nobody else is heading to Iran that I can see perhaps nobody else cares.

If any of you expect one man to clean up the corruption, confusion and dysfunction within the Catholic hierarchy, you are deluding yourself.

Who am I to judge? (What does this phrase remind me of? What about you?)

July 29, 2013 - During his first news conference Francis makes the statement, "If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?" while discussing the gay and lesbian community within the church.

Rethink some traditions - progressive thinking when more and more people are leaving this faith.

November 26, 2013 - Francis releases "Evangelii Gaudium" (The Joy of the Gospel), an 85-page call for the church to rethink some traditions.

Forgive.

August 30, 2015 - Francis announces that priests around the world will be able to forgive the "sin of abortion" during the Catholic Church's "Year of Mercy" beginning on December 8 and ending on November 20, 2016.

Ordaining women.

May 13, 2016 - Says the Vatican should study the possibility of ordaining women as deacons, answering a call that women, particularly in the United States, have been asking the church to address for decades.

www.cnn.com...

And recently how he's handling the sexual abuse situation -

www.bbc.com...

“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden” (Mt 5:14). Our Lord Jesus Christ calls every believer to be a shining example of virtue, integrity and holiness. All of us, in fact, are called to give concrete witness of faith in Christ in our lives and, in particular, in our relationship with others.

press.vatican.va...

What more do you suggest he do?

originally posted by: InTheLight

What more do you suggest he do?

Avoiding openly blaming and attacking victims of sexual abuse by his organization would be a good start.
www.apnews.com...

Pope Francis accused victims of Chile’s most notorious pedophile of slander Thursday, an astonishing end to a visit meant to help heal the wounds of a sex abuse scandal that has cost the Catholic Church its credibility in the country.

Not promoting the bishop directly responsible for covering up sexual abuses when the Pope, himself, knew he was guilty of covering it up and then lying from the Holy See would be a wonderful follow through.
www.lifesitenews.com...

in this case where the Pope appointed a bishop with a history of complicity in child sex abuse. The Pope’s claim that he had never received any victim testimony regarding the complicity of Chilean Bishop Juan Barros in child sex abuse has proven to be false.

Or perhaps he could realize that, within an organization rife with sexual abuse history and a record of internal cover ups, a mandate that says reports should be made to Church higher ups rather than law enforcement and civil authorities is little more than maintaining the status quo?
www.apnews.com...

Pope Francis issued a groundbreaking new church law Thursday requiring all Catholic priests and nuns around the world to report clergy sexual abuse and cover-ups by their superiors to church authorities, in a new effort to hold the Catholic hierarchy accountable for failing to protect their flocks.

*Now, if you want to defend this one, imagine you reaction if it was a corporation like, say, Exxon who did this. "Any environmental or labor violations must be immediately and only reported to corporate staff" would be INSTANTLY ridiculed as a step towards ensuring these violations remained in house and weren't addressed by civil authorities.

To top it all off, there's the McCormick scandal and the mishandling of money.
stream.org...

If this is what the Church calls "infallible," then I'd truly hate to see their definition of flawed.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

He said he made grave errors in the Cuban scandal, apologized and has since worked to deal with the predators. How do you think he should deal with a he/he he/she said situation where there is no evidence?

Of course he is flawed because he is human, but so far he is the only Pope in history trying to tackle this horrible problem.

a reply to: InTheLight

How can someone who is head of an organization, yet infallible, incapable of making mistakes or being wrong on Earth, admit to making grave errors?

I mean you have to see or appreciate the hypocrisy at least?

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: InTheLight

How can someone who is head of an organization, yet infallible, incapable of making mistakes or being wrong on Earth, admit to making grave errors?

I mean you have to see or appreciate the hypocrisy at least?

Where did the Pope say he was infallible or incapable of making mistakes? Nowhere, because he didn't say any of that.

originally posted by: InTheLight
How do you think he should deal with a he/he he/she said situation where there is no evidence?

Multiple sources from within the inner machinations of the Church and the Vatican, itself, have stated that there was a lot of evidence and it was known to Francis well before he attempted to throw victims under the bus. I mean seriously, what human being in the 21st Century question whether the Church has sexual abused children? What manner of flat Earthery is that?