Expected Patriot Sale Panics Pakistan

The ones being sold to India are supp to be a part of the US NMD program using the latest patriot PAC-III.. although IMHO India will only be offered PAC-II (still superior to the defective scud seekers)..
So mickey dee you say the indians should buy th Russian S-300?? Or Israeli arrow -2..
Or should the Indians just go back to feeding their homeless..??

en.wikipedia.org...

Feed the homeless, otherwise try and buy the Aster 15. That seems to be looking good, a lot better then the PAC-3 or the Arrow.

Originally posted by Odium
Feed the homeless, otherwise try and buy the Aster 15. That seems to be looking good, a lot better then the PAC-3 or the Arrow.

Homless are being fed and poverty is being reduced in a level in India in the scale quite literally never before seen in the entire of human history.

Indian military spending is 2.5% of GDP, far shorter than 6+% of Pakistan and 8-10% of China.

Before collectively repremanding India perhaps liquidate all your worldly belongins for charitable purposes first, lest one accuse you of disingenuity as well as lecturing us entirely out of your arse.

Cheers.
Raj



[edit on 7-3-2005 by rajkhalsa2004]

Originally posted by rajkhalsa2004
Originally posted by Odium
Feed the homeless, otherwise try and buy the Aster 15. That seems to be looking good, a lot better then the PAC-3 or the Arrow.

Homless are being fed and poverty is being reduced in a level in India in the scale quite literally never before seen in the entire of human history.

Indian military spending is 2.5% of GDP, far shorter than 6+% of Pakistan and 8-10% of China.

Before collectively repremanding India perhaps liquidate all your worldly belongins for charitable purposes first, lest one accuse you of disingenuity as well as lecturing us entirely out of your arse.

Cheers.
Raj
[edit on 7-3-2005 by rajkhalsa2004]

I actually only own things that I need - bar maybe my music collection. I give money to charity, every month (although not much, because I have to pay for College, my house, etc, etc.)

Maybe you shouldn't assume that I do not give to charity? Although I give it to mostly HIV or Cancer charities.

And my point was, I would put the money they'll waste on the PAC-3 into something more productive. Instead of wasting it. The productive outlet that Daedalus3 raised, was homeless people. So I used his prior example and in turn answered his question.

Maybe you shouldn't assume I do not give to charity? Or maybe you should stop lecturing me out of your arse? Or maybe you shouldn't think I waste all my money on luxary items?

total: 57.92 deaths/1,000 live births (Infant mortality rate)
total population: 63.99 years (Life expectancy at birth)
total population: 59.5% (Literacy)
25% (2002 est.) (Population below Poverty line)
India

I can find more problems with India if I tried. My point was, they should spend money on the homeless, poor, etc, then the PAC-3 which isn't worth the hype.

[edit on 7-3-2005 by Odium]

Actually it was a trick question,..
Daedalus3 is himself is of the opinion that India should assert itself as a economic/military power...
India has the resources to feed/educate ALL its people but the infrastructure is not in place..
crops lie rotting in godowns all over the country..
E.g: Tsunami relief..India relif ops were not only completely self sufficient but they sent food/aid to Sri Lanka and Aceh as well..

Infrastructure can only be built with funds which are powered by economic growth, a path India is trailblazing already along with China..
Secondly India should have the self-sufficiency to defend/protect its interests, hence no dependance on anybody's elses nuclear umbrella ..

I don't see why India should be singled out for its defense expenditure, seeing as it has among the lowest spending percentages of any major country, and moreso how only 70% of allocated defense funds in the last 10 years were actually spent with the rest returning to the exchequer, and especially so considering its security enviroment where it is the victim of 5 wars of territorial aggression plus terrorist insurgency under the nuclear bogey.

India's aggregate povery rates are appalling, sure, it is a developing country. However, taking as a representative whole, they are surely not so, and with population below poverty line declining at a rate of 15%+ on average in the last decade, and with growing margins each year -- to say nothing of the other socio-economic factors which show even greater success.


Surely, in an ideal world, everyone would stop buying guns for butter-derived products and join hands around the campfire singing kumbaiya.

But how incredibly presumptuous of you to sit here on an electronic ivory tower with no understanding of the ground realities and chide India about her incredibly low defense outlays considering the fact that as many Indian civilians died in India due to terrorist and conventional cross-border attacks as the entire middle east combined.

My comment to you about liquidating your assets, remains as a comparison to your suggestion India reduce its low defense expenditure. Perhaps a more adaquate one would be for you to take all the money you have going toward insurance as well as money you use for your pleasure and throw that toward the local homeless shelter in managamous gestures.

Your own medical financial insecurity in that scenario would be compounded by your 2 next door neighbors continuously chasing you around with billy clubs trying to break both your legs.

Do that first, then repeat what you say with the weight of a martyr behind your words.


Frankly though, India will not waste her money on the PAC3, simply because her own Akash system is nearing completion in the next couple years.

--

[added later]:Though I didn't see before that Daedalus3 made the initial homeless comment, which I had attributed to you (which I thought had just come out of the blue.) My apologies for jumping on you like that.

-Raj

[edit on 7-3-2005 by rajkhalsa2004]

I pay tax. My tax goes to things such as the NHS, money to those who're unemplyed, etc.

I'm not American. I don't pay health insurance and I choose to pay tax, as I'm still a student. I also work part-time (one day a week, but only day I have off) at a homeless shelter. -shrugs- I do as much as I can for others, because I can see the problems the world has.

My point is, if you're going to spend money on weapons - you should aim for the best you can get. The PAC-3 isn't.

I am neutral about the India-Pakistan crissis but tell you the truth because i have been reading past wars of the world, since Indias rival Pakistan was born it has only caused you Indians pain, and in the wars it fought you it had been out numbered by the worlds biggest army and one of the world biggest air force, but it has kicked your a$$ like hell and beatn you against the odds how would you react to this

I know you hate them but they love you Indians allot

my grand dad Turkish fought in WW2 and after that he was living now in Holland he went of in Pakistan in 1965 holiday and met the man who has the world record for craking your Indian a$$ MM Alam he shot 5 hunters in less then a minute and he did with a F86 Sabres that embarrassing to know
that is so fu*ked up

here is a source to back up my view about the Pakistani air force Defence against the Indian Air Force
www.topfighters.com...

the source about MM Alam Who shot 5 Indian Air Bomber HUNTERS DOWN IN LESS THEN A MINUTE

www.aircraftresourcecenter.com...

this a total Distruction that pakistanies did to the Indian Air Force
www.acig.org...

[edit on 3-6-2005 by Interseptor]

[edit on 3-6-2005 by Interseptor]

Originally posted by Interseptor
I am neutral about the India-Pakistan crissis but tell you the truth because i have been reading past wars of the world, since Indias rival Pakistan was born it has only caused you Indians pain, and in the wars it fought you it had been out numbered by the worlds biggest army and one of the world biggest air force, but it has kicked your a$$ like hell and beatn you against the odds how would you react to this

I know you hate them but they love you Indians allot

my grand dad Turkish fought in WW2 and after that he was living now in Holland he went of in Pakistan in 1965 holiday and met the man who has the world record for craking your Indian a$$ MM Alam he shot 5 hunters in less then a minute and he did with a F86 Sabres that embarrassing to know
that is so fu*ked up

here is a source to back up my view about the Pakistani air force Defence against the Indian Air Force
www.topfighters.com...

the source about MM Alam Who shot 5 Indian Air Bomber HUNTERS DOWN IN LESS THEN A MINUTE

www.aircraftresourcecenter.com...

this a total Distruction that pakistanies did to the Indian Air Force
www.acig.org...

[edit on 3-6-2005 by Interseptor]

[edit on 3-6-2005 by Interseptor]

i agree that is embarassing. But then again that was history and does not really reflect about the present state of thier airforce.

I would like to see a F-16 take on 5 or even 1 Su 30 MKI in less than a minute.

the sale is all about china not pakistan and india

Originally posted by kozmoWho needs 'em! It's apparent that they are harboring terrorists and protecting them within their own borders. Recent news reports indicate that the Pakistanis are now permitted to fire upon (NOT warning shots) American troops that breech their borders while in hot pursuit of terrorists. If they cannot watch out for our best interests then why should we watch out for theirs!?

Screw Pakistan, I would rather have India as an ally anyway. They are also at war with Islamic Fundementalism, and not a shadow public war like Pakistan.

A Question about Pakistan's Musharraf "Terrorist or not?"

Originally posted by MickeyDeeIsnt the US Patriot missile system a load of s**t anyway!Are these not the same missiles that were supposed to be bringing down the scuds heading for Tel Aviv durin the Gulf 1?

I remember reading several sources saying that the claimed number of scuds shot down compared to the real number brought down was very different.

If this is true then isnt America just unloading a bunch of missiles that dont work very well???

This absolutely cracks me up, the PAC3 Patriot is the BEST SAM system in the world that is land based period.

The PAC2 was not designed to be a ABM missile, a software upgrade is what they added and considering that they did hit their targets but with only 'proximity warheads' they only knocked the inaccurate Scuds off course.
As for shooting the planes (allied) down, do you understand how the system works? It did its job to well and the human link failed not the SAM. (Think transponder problems)

When you say this system is #, you don't know what you are talking about. The Russians have their version, and its selling to Syria and China so that should tell you something.

Originally posted by edsinger

Originally posted by kozmoWho needs 'em! It's apparent that they are harboring terrorists and protecting them within their own borders. Recent news reports indicate that the Pakistanis are now permitted to fire upon (NOT warning shots) American troops that breech their borders while in hot pursuit of terrorists. If they cannot watch out for our best interests then why should we watch out for theirs!?

Screw Pakistan, I would rather have India as an ally anyway. They are also at war with Islamic Fundementalism, and not a shadow public war like Pakistan.

A Question about Pakistan's Musharraf "Terrorist or not?"

Originally posted by MickeyDeeIsnt the US Patriot missile system a load of s**t anyway!Are these not the same missiles that were supposed to be bringing down the scuds heading for Tel Aviv durin the Gulf 1?

I remember reading several sources saying that the claimed number of scuds shot down compared to the real number brought down was very different.

If this is true then isnt America just unloading a bunch of missiles that dont work very well???

This absolutely cracks me up, the PAC3 Patriot is the BEST SAM system in the world that is land based period.

The PAC2 was not designed to be a ABM missile, a software upgrade is what they added and considering that they did hit their targets but with only 'proximity warheads' they only knocked the inaccurate Scuds off course.
As for shooting the planes (allied) down, do you understand how the system works? It did its job to well and the human link failed not the SAM. (Think transponder problems)

When you say this system is #, you don't know what you are talking about. The Russians have their version, and its selling to Syria and China so that should tell you something.

dude I agree with you but the fact remains i wrote some info down the wars the Paks fought were the cause of a dispute in kashmir, the indians have 10 million solidiers in kashmer paks have about 10 million in the whole countery, the indians use different personalities when it comes to arms sale with America they all get happy and friendly bull sh*t
the indians are such in the war against terrorism why the Fu*k dont thy send 5 million army troops (even tough they have the worlds largest army a figure of 50 million troops for just pakistan) to Iraq/Afganistan because theyre using forign arms sales to increace there defence after all, all those defeats most prety embarasing and the last war they fought was in 1999 kargil also lost by India.

since the war against the terrorism India hasnt even spent a penny, on the war sends some stuff Iraqi troops give them trianing so that US troops would have some beter eye on Irag no!!, but the Pakistanies have been contributing in the war that has been condemned by the UN, sending there inteligence services to provide data to US Troops, I dont see them doing that, what you hear mostly from indians is terrorist in kashmir another why in saying bull sh*t and then asking for more arms, come on 10 million troops cant stop some kisds playing with fire works from china that is just low

Paks have some troops based in Afganistan to help out the war against terror, I am on the side of justice and not some bull sh*t from India.

and by the way havent you noticed why Americans dont give money to india so that it could help contribute towards the war on terror, because they dont know were the fu*k they spend on

[edit on 4-6-2005 by Interseptor]

[edit on 4-6-2005 by Interseptor]

Originally posted by rajkhalsa2004
Originally posted by Odium
Feed the homeless, otherwise try and buy the Aster 15. That seems to be looking good, a lot better then the PAC-3 or the Arrow.

Homless are being fed and poverty is being reduced in a level in India in the scale quite literally never before seen in the entire of human history.

Indian military spending is 2.5% of GDP, far shorter than 6+% of Pakistan and 8-10% of China.

Before collectively repremanding India perhaps liquidate all your worldly belongins for charitable purposes first, lest one accuse you of disingenuity as well as lecturing us entirely out of your arse.

Cheers.
Raj



[edit on 7-3-2005 by rajkhalsa2004]

china brought a lot more people out of poverty than india has done.

not even the highest estimates state that china spends over 5% on defence.

I could have saved you the trouble. i was in a patriot unit. And yes, they do suck for the most part. We spent a good portion of the 90's upgrading them and trying to get the friggin bugs out of em. The system is full of bugs. During our time in Saudi, everytime we were doing training and had scud alerts, the whole friggin system would freeze up. Of course at first, the missile dogs blamed the generators and I spent endless hours ding pointless needless checks on them to prove it wasn't the damn generators frying the system. But the system also froze when we had real scud alerts, which was downright scary. But it is also worthy of note too, that I cant fully comment on the system in general. You see, most patriot operators are complete idiots. I worked with them, and quite frankly, I was quite scared. They few that are competant are usually sent off to do stupid # to impress some bigwigs. It seems that the idiots are the ones at the helm most of the time.

I will say this, they have improved considerably from the first gulf war. Since we managed to shoot down our own planes in this one, I see they finally got that radar guidance problem fixed. They still got a long way to go on the IFF ( Identification Friend or Foe) tho. That never worked, and during some training exercises where they ran simulation tapes, we shot down entire squadrons of F-16s. I see they still aint got it fixed yet.

So i still dont see why Pakistan is panicing. That should tell you something about their own defense capabilities if they fear the Patriot missile. If the Indians do successfully operate it, it will confirm to me that the entire population of Ft Bliss are complete morons.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_ElfI will say this, they have improved considerably from the first gulf war. fear the Patriot missile. If the Indians do successfully operate it, it will confirm to me that the entire population of Ft Bliss are complete morons.

Well that they have the PAC3 is quite nice from what I understand.

As for idiots - come on how long were you in the Army? That is why we design crap to be idiot proof.

If you think it was a piece of # then fine, go back to the I-Hawk.

But in reality what the Patriot was being asked to do in Gulf War 1 was not in its design - it was a patch job and you know it.

On the Plains of Germany, it would have been fine for the massive aircraft engagements.

And yes the IFF has some issues, but it can not help it when one is damaged on the aircraft now can it?

The indians are scarde of pakistan really no jokes

the indians have woping 24.4% on there military hard budget GDP ware were as pakistan has a 3.6% of military budget they have recently reduced it is because they feel that they should look towards the future of there country financialy

this source comes from
www.checkpoint-online.ch...

wille india is just increacing it there is more to come of the budget and saying that there is no need for lowering and looking after 1 billion population of india at the momment it is the world fastest growing population opposit to China the worlds fastest growing ecconomy.

well the patriot missiles are just peace of crap in the crisis of pak-indo
because no body is stupid enough or accept the indians to try shoot down in a conflict a nuke missile it will either explode in the air or nuclear radiation is going to spread around the area very smart choice of india (power hungery Dum A$$E$) and another thing what ever country has missile factories and is nuke capable oke how many missiles can you take down not many after all it be launching at least 50 every half an hour and we are talking about indo-pak.

really deep down inside india fears pakistan and they have #ted in their pants before and also they have got some issues with the chinnese its all FU*ked up for the indians

why the FU*K dont they under stand that buying sommething useless in there conflict with nuke neighbours wont really scare there nieghbours but only give them joy to know that there enemy complete idiots in trusting and showing off something that only be costly piece of junk.

the indians should look towards there country and help it improve and settle the dispute between pakistan peacfully

GOOD EXAMPLE TO ALL YOU INDIANS IS CHINA LOOK AT ITS GROWTH RATE AND IT POWER IT HAS REALLY BEEN A SUCCESS STORY AROUND THE WORLD I HOPE THEY BE THE WORLD NUM 1 POWER BECAUSE THEY DESERVE IT!!!

Originally posted by edsinger

Well that they have the PAC3 is quite nice from what I understand.

As for idiots - come on how long were you in the Army? That is why we design crap to be idiot proof.

If you think it was a piece of # then fine, go back to the I-Hawk.

But in reality what the Patriot was being asked to do in Gulf War 1 was not in its design - it was a patch job and you know it.

On the Plains of Germany, it would have been fine for the massive aircraft engagements.

And yes the IFF has some issues, but it can not help it when one is damaged on the aircraft now can it?

I was in for 4 years. Same friggin unit.

Unfortunately, as I was a mechanic, the army doesnt idiot proof its equipment near as good as it should, otherwise, id not have spent half of my tour doing 24-48 hour shifts fixing really stupid things that normal, intelligent, sentient people do not break.

There were actually quite a few old timers in my unit who were Hawk personnel who wished we would not have replaced the Hawk. They said although it it lacked the people friendly radar, the power, and speed of the PACs, it was far more reliable and accurate, it had not nearly half the problems Patriot missiles did. Just dont stand downrange from its radar. They used toss turkeys in front of the old Hawk radars while they were radiating to make them explode for #s and giggles on thanksgiving.

You are correct on one thing tho: the original PACs were not designed for missile interception. During my time in, much in the way of time and resources was spent upgrading it, along with trying to work out the bugs. They put in new GPS units, which were supposed to make the aiming circles outmoded, but they didnt work to well, and the system mechanics were down range replacing them as often as I was downrange on the generators draining and purging fuel systems because some moron put antifreeze in the fuel tank, or transmission fluid in the radiator.

As far as the PAC3s go, my sources.....old friends still in ADA, the IFF is still a piece of #, and while the system no longer feezes during scud alerts, it does have problems with false radar sigs and false launches.

They were gonna replace it with THADS, because when I was in, they were starting to send missile guys back to bliss to retrain on THADS, but Ive heard no more about that.

Crap double posts.

[edit on 5-6-2005 by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

why do you think they have moved on to thel? lol

Interseptor WTF are you spilling.

India have beaten pkaistan to submission in all the 4 wars the 2 countries have fought.

Shall i remind you of how 96000 paki soldiers surrendered in 1971 or how pakistan ran away from kargil.

Heck, go check out : www.abovetopsecret.com...

and www.abovetopsecret.com...

and the rest of the thread

PAK will be a failed state by 2015 (US INTELLIGENCE)

[edit on 5-6-2005 by Stealth Spy]