Welcome to the Trade Wars

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I live in the REAL world not your KRAZY world. I care nothing for your economics bull #, our communities in the west outside the capitals you know in the industrial heartlands were in better shape in the 80's before we started engaging Commies................... It's just a fact!

originally posted by: [post=23452674]ScepticScotIn general low Tarrifs mean cheaper goods and higher standard of living which has been the case.

Ok why not bring back shipping loads of slaves out of their homelands and have them work for nothing, then we can all reap the benefits of even cheaper goods than now. Joyous times for all Point being there is a cost to cheap er and cheaper goods and the cost in the west is the demise of our traditional communities, not gradual but pretty much instant and you will get more right wing swings like in Italy etc until we get what the people really want and we been there before and it's scary.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
The way the trade is set up now, it benefits the consumer market in the states but inhibits the manufacturing market in the states.


We've been a consumer society for too long, in my opinion.


We need to get back to manufacturing. Only way to do that is to renegotiate trade agreements.

That’s not what ruined American manufacturing, what drove manufacturing out wasn’t tariffs but corporate greed where they wanted to pay slave wages overseas.

Thinking tariffs will bring manufacturing back is a pipe dream.

Trump’s Tariffs Won’t Restore Manufacturing Jobs, Data Shows

www.shrm.org...

The Trump administration's proposed tariffs on aluminum and steel are unlikely to bring back the manufacturing jobs lost in recent decades, and could instead cost tens of thousands of U.S. jobs, according to economists.

Would imposing tariffs bring manufacturing jobs back to the US?

David Autor, Ford Professor of Economics and Associate Head at MIT

No, very unlikely to do that. Manufacturing value chains are global. Many U.S. made goods have foreign components. Slapping on tariffs will raise prices and slow imports but it will make us poorer and impede growth.

www.quora.com...

originally posted by: RadioRobert
a reply to: luthier

Why do those countries have high taxes?

They have high tariffs because every country in the world recognizes a need to protect domestic industry except the US.

Who cares 

People employed by domestic manufacturing who don't get fair access to foreign markets while seeing duty-free foreign products cut into their market share.

They have high taxes because it is their philosophy the government is better at trade than the market. They also have less economic strengrh, less competition, and less choice and freedom.


It is your philosophy we need to protect an industry that doesn't exist.

Or that we should return to factory jobs.

The reality is we have record employment and no one in any industry thinks this is a good idea.

It will make the disadvantaged hurt far worse for little to no gain.

a reply to: Willtell

But it sounds cool to those who know nothing about economics.

Manufacturing in the world now is mainly in very low wage countries. And that is by design.

Do you want to manufacture Again on a large scale? Bring back strong unions. They won’t do that, so kiss goodbye to the good old days.


I know I was there; I worked 12 hard years at GM and got laid off a bunch of times. Saw the writing on the wall and went into IT.

a reply to: luthier

You got that right.

If they were going to really bring back manufacturing like the “good old days” that would have to include many more elements to it than tariffs

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: luthier

You got that right.

If they were going to really bring back manufacturing like the “good old days” that would have to include many more elements to it than tariffs

Why would we want to bring back crappy, dangerous, boring jobs?

To take a step backwards?

originally posted by: links234
a reply to: luthier

The idea is to 'trigger' liberals. That's the end-game here. Trump could s**t in their breakfast cereal and as long as at least one liberal mentioned how messed up that is, it would be enough for Red Hats to applaud and cheer.

Trump supporters don't care about this country or its freedoms or its laws. They've watched too much Fox News, listened to too much talk radio and read too much Ann Coulter to be more than happy when they perceive the 'other side' losing. That includes when everyone loses because at least the 'liberals' are still losing.

Wow, can I screencap this comment?

That has to be the worst projection that I have ever seen.
It highlights the issues we have with liberals today.

F'n constant bs and emotion based thinking.

You have the actual thought that he is so angry, his whole existance as a president is to piss off liberals?

This comment is actually kind of disturbing.

Get control of your emotions, jesus dude.

a reply to: Mandroid7

Plus why would it piss off liberals they love taxes.

a reply to: luthier

Because we can't just sell insurance to each other.

You sound like your talking down an industry you know nothing about.

Owning a factory will make you a millionaire.

Americans should be the millionaires and have the first shot, not F'n Bezos the middleman, outsourcing to Chang Chong in slave factories.

originally posted by: Willtell

originally posted by: DBCowboy
The way the trade is set up now, it benefits the consumer market in the states but inhibits the manufacturing market in the states.


We've been a consumer society for too long, in my opinion.


We need to get back to manufacturing. Only way to do that is to renegotiate trade agreements.

That’s not what ruined American manufacturing, what drove manufacturing out wasn’t tariffs but corporate greed where they wanted to pay slave wages overseas.

Thinking tariffs will bring manufacturing back is a pipe dream.

Trump’s Tariffs Won’t Restore Manufacturing Jobs, Data Shows

www.shrm.org...

The Trump administration's proposed tariffs on aluminum and steel are unlikely to bring back the manufacturing jobs lost in recent decades, and could instead cost tens of thousands of U.S. jobs, according to economists.

Would imposing tariffs bring manufacturing jobs back to the US?

David Autor, Ford Professor of Economics and Associate Head at MIT

No, very unlikely to do that. Manufacturing value chains are global. Many U.S. made goods have foreign components. Slapping on tariffs will raise prices and slow imports but it will make us poorer and impede growth.

www.quora.com...

SMH, those opinion pieces, when stripped to their core are nothing but, "But", "Very Unlikely", not indicative of anything but a measure for leftist feed.

You still haven't got it yet? Common sense and a bit of the ol' Art of the Deal.

Your anti-Trump stance reeks with your post and as such, has deluded any real sensible reasons of any good merit, soley as a result of the absolute negativity you harbor for our POTUS.

Your two links, I raise you mine ONE and ONLY, it too is an opinion piece, by none other then fake news org, NYT.

"Is it any real shock that many believe that the rules of the game governing globalization have been rigged against typical American workers?" (Bivens et al)

Aside from the usual small jab at Trump, the article is actually decent and helps to bring back those to reality who are otherwise deluded that this is the end, doom all BS, lol.

Im conjunction with what is proposed, it helps to see the ALREADY existing problem American has been facing and the current challenges that exist to fix it.

Right now, Trade is so lopsided and bad that current remedies will be seen as negative, but its one of those, "rip off the band-aid" moment. There isn't any easy way out of this.




Sources:
mobile.nytimes.com...

originally posted by: Mandroid7
a reply to: luthier

Because we can't just sell insurance to each other.

You sound like your talking down an industry you know nothing about.

Owning a factory will make you a millionaire.

Americans should be the millionaires and have the first shot, not F'n Bezos the middleman, outsourcing to Chang Chong in slave factories.

Lol. I certainly do, I also know we have a higher average income than protectionist countries, we have more freedom of choice, and a stronger economy.

What you don't understand is actual economics.

Apparently you have never heard of the cpi and inflation.

I am.amazed trump has gotten his followers to be for taxes and government intervention in the market.

For what gains lower pay? Lol. So a few people can make cell phones and get rich to increase consumer prices?

originally posted by: Arnie123

originally posted by: Willtell

originally posted by: DBCowboy
The way the trade is set up now, it benefits the consumer market in the states but inhibits the manufacturing market in the states.


We've been a consumer society for too long, in my opinion.


We need to get back to manufacturing. Only way to do that is to renegotiate trade agreements.

That’s not what ruined American manufacturing, what drove manufacturing out wasn’t tariffs but corporate greed where they wanted to pay slave wages overseas.

Thinking tariffs will bring manufacturing back is a pipe dream.

Trump’s Tariffs Won’t Restore Manufacturing Jobs, Data Shows

www.shrm.org...

The Trump administration's proposed tariffs on aluminum and steel are unlikely to bring back the manufacturing jobs lost in recent decades, and could instead cost tens of thousands of U.S. jobs, according to economists.

Would imposing tariffs bring manufacturing jobs back to the US?

David Autor, Ford Professor of Economics and Associate Head at MIT

No, very unlikely to do that. Manufacturing value chains are global. Many U.S. made goods have foreign components. Slapping on tariffs will raise prices and slow imports but it will make us poorer and impede growth.

www.quora.com...

SMH, those opinion pieces, when stripped to their core are nothing but, "But", "Very Unlikely", not indicative of anything but a measure for leftist feed.

You still haven't got it yet? Common sense and a bit of the ol' Art of the Deal.

Your anti-Trump stance reeks with your post and as such, has deluded any real sensible reasons of any good merit, soley as a result of the absolute negativity you harbor for our POTUS.

Your two links, I raise you mine ONE and ONLY, it too is an opinion piece, by none other then fake news org, NYT.

"Is it any real shock that many believe that the rules of the game governing globalization have been rigged against typical American workers?" (Bivens et al)

Aside from the usual small jab at Trump, the article is actually decent and helps to bring back those to reality who are otherwise deluded that this is the end, doom all BS, lol.

Im conjunction with what is proposed, it helps to see the ALREADY existing problem American has been facing and the current challenges that exist to fix it.

Right now, Trade is so lopsided and bad that current remedies will be seen as negative, but its one of those, "rip off the band-aid" moment. There isn't any easy way out of this.




Sources:
mobile.nytimes.com...

We have a higher average income than just about anywhere, low unemployment, and a robust economy..

Not sure how trade wars will be positive.

If we were return to manufacturensure as a base. It would produce less jobs.

Why? Automation and robotics would be used to keep cost down.

But hey the almighty trump said so even though the man tanked all his businesses when he ran them and inherited his wealth.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: DBCowboy

Again fair is a pretty vague concept here.

If it reduces the standard of living in the US is that still more fair?

Fair is not vague.


If we can bring back manufacturing, then I think that would outweigh any perceived negatives.


Why focus on service industry jobs when we have the opportunity to bring back jobs that paid 40, 60, 80 thousand a year?

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: DBCowboy

Again fair is a pretty vague concept here.

If it reduces the standard of living in the US is that still more fair?

Fair is not vague.


If we can bring back manufacturing, then I think that would outweigh any perceived negatives.


Why focus on service industry jobs when we have the opportunity to bring back jobs that paid 40, 60, 80 thousand a year?

This is not a realistic model. Manufacturing would decrease the jobs. You are talking about machinists. Which are very limited in modern manufacring. What would be used are programmers. It's exactly the opposite direction for employment numbers unless you decrease wages.

If you believe that factories would hire a majority of high paying jobs you do not understand how that would effect cost.

a reply to: luthier

SMH

I can't believe I'm actually have a debate with someone who is not for high paying jobs.


I can find any number of models that would support my side. I'm sure you could find any number of models that would support your side.


Bottom line is this; We've been doing the same thing over and over for decades and have been expecting different results. That is a sign of insanity.


I am for anything that even "might" bring back high paying jobs instead of spending time arguing over jobs that pay 11 dollars an hour!

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: luthier

SMH

I can't believe I'm actually have a debate with someone who is not for high paying jobs.


I can find any number of models that would support my side. I'm sure you could find any number of models that would support your side.


Bottom line is this; We've been doing the same thing over and over for decades and have been expecting different results. That is a sign of insanity.


I am for anything that even "might" bring back high paying jobs instead of spending time arguing over jobs that pay 11 dollars an hour!

Please do. Find those models.

My father owns a manufacturing business.

You really don't understand automation and robotics use to reduce cost if you believe there would be a net positive result.

High paying jobs are in research, science, programming, etc..

Do you know how many machinist my father uses. 1. 1. Machinist in a factory of 97. The rest are low paying a monkey could do pulling parts. With the exception of an engineer and a programmer.

The result would be to lower cost for the consumer unless of corse you are falsely taking away competition which is what tariffs partly do.

To lower costs you use more automation that a single or few programmers can do and you hire unskilled labor to pull parts.

How many people does an auto plant use compared to 1950? Use that as reference.

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: DBCowboy

Again fair is a pretty vague concept here.

If it reduces the standard of living in the US is that still more fair?

Fair is not vague.


If we can bring back manufacturing, then I think that would outweigh any perceived negatives.


Why focus on service industry jobs when we have the opportunity to bring back jobs that paid 40, 60, 80 thousand a year?

And I am pointing out that tarrifs on raw materials will hurt not help manufacturing.

a reply to: DBCowboy

Is there any indication that we have a shortage of service workers? If we move everyone from engineering and manufacturing (replacing them with cheap foreign labour) where is the underserviced industry those workers move into? Mass shortages of hoteliers? Baristas? Waiters and waitresses?

Now let's double down and couple that with our push to open borders to flood the low end of the labour pool.

How does anyone think this represents a stronger economy in the long run than our closed economy of yesteryear?

Why are countries like China, Germany, France, etc all implementing out of proportion tariffs to protect their own domestic manufacturers or growers from our products? Didn't they get the memo that buying US goods, sending their currency abroad, and turning all their workers into baristas is the economic model for success?