Donald Trump Says, 'Take the guns first, go through due process second'

this is great lol You will attack your RIGHT to bear arms but as soon as the RIGHT to due process is even looked at sideways, all of a sudden your rights mean something again, all with one sentence from the greatest #poster alive.



go out and buy an ar-15 to celebrate

a reply to: face23785

I first got a deferment for having a tooth problem. I had a doctor write a bull# story about a bad tooth and I got a deferment for a few months.

www.calledtoservevietnam.com...

Anti-war protesters during the Vietnam era brought attention to the disparities of the draft. White, wealthy men were more likely to receive college deferments since they could afford college tuition. They also could convince family doctors to write a letter to the draft board, urging a medical exemption. The poor, on the other hand, had to rely on Army doctors to grant them a medical exemption.

classroom.synonym.com...

It was possible, sometimes, to bribe a doctor into writing a letter to your draft board, excusing you from the war.

www.seas.upenn.edu...

That last one sounds a lot like:

He said he had visited a doctor who provided him a letter for draft officials, who granted him the medical exemption.

originally posted by: oddnutz
this is great lol You will attack your RIGHT to bear arms but as soon as the RIGHT to due process is even looked at sideways, all of a sudden your rights mean something again, all with one sentence from the greatest #poster alive.

go out and buy an ar-15 to celebrate

You seem to be missing the point. It is Trump who is the hypocrite.

a reply to: Phage

not at all, i know he is a hypocrite, bull# artist and liar. So only some American rights are open to attack, reinterpretation and adjustment but others are not? Let me guess only democrats decide what American rights and laws can be change to suit their political ideology?

I try not to get involved in the gun debate because i am not American and it is not my culture but it seems to me if changing gun rights to save lives is reasonable then changing due process rights to save lives is equally reasonable.
I do not have a problem with police deciding someone is too unstable to possess firearms at that time and the onus is on the gun owner to prove they are fit to own weapons. Sure it could be abused but there would legal recourse if you were unjustly treated but if it saves lives. I live in a nanny country though so my biases likely come from being wrapped up in cotton wool.

a reply to: oddnutz

Not everyone agrees that gun regulation is a violation of the 2nd amendment. Regulation, for example, which prohibits those who have been legally determined to be mentally unfit from owning guns. That's called due process, action through the legal system. The Supreme Court has made it clear that such regulation is indeed Constitutional.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: face23785

I first got a deferment for having a tooth problem. I had a doctor write a bull# story about a bad tooth and I got a deferment for a few months.

www.calledtoservevietnam.com...

Anti-war protesters during the Vietnam era brought attention to the disparities of the draft. White, wealthy men were more likely to receive college deferments since they could afford college tuition. They also could convince family doctors to write a letter to the draft board, urging a medical exemption. The poor, on the other hand, had to rely on Army doctors to grant them a medical exemption.

classroom.synonym.com...

It was possible, sometimes, to bribe a doctor into writing a letter to your draft board, excusing you from the war.

www.seas.upenn.edu...

Well I linked to Selective Service's own draft procedures, a .gov site. You linked to some unsubstantiated accounts that are from 40 year old memory. There are lots of people who have misconceptions about how the draft works, I'd really rather you post something a little more concrete and official. But let's not nitpick and I'll take their recollections at face value and assume they're accurate.

The first one is missing a piece. I love how you selectively quote the part that suits you

I first got a deferment for having a tooth problem. I had a doctor write a bull# story about a bad tooth and I got a deferment for a few months.

and leave the very next sentence out.

When that no longer was working I remember going for the physical.

The 2nd example, the key part is right in it, I'll just add some emphasis:

They also could convince family doctors to write a letter to the draft board, urging a medical exemption.

So if these accounts are accurate, they reveal the military didn't just take your family doctor's word for it and you were safe, they still make you report for your examination so they can check you out themselves. Your sources confirm that. How do you suppose Trump faked bone spurs to the military doctor?

Also, you've still yet to point to the part of Trump's quote where he says he chose his own doctor too. Are you prepared to admit it doesn't say that? It merely says he saw a doctor, it doesn't indicate whether it was civilian or military.

a reply to: face23785

Well I linked to Selective Service's own draft procedures, a .gov site.

Do you think that just maybe, procedures have changed in the past 50 years (never mind the fact that there is, as of now, no draft)?
www.sss.gov...

In his book Working Class War: American Combat Soldiers and Vietnam, Christian Appy says, “Poor and working-class men ordinarily allowed military doctors to determine their physical fitness. Induction center examinations were often perfunctory exercises in which all but the most obvious disabilities were overlooked.” According to Chance and Circumstance, men who arrived at their induction physical with professional documentation of a disqualifying ailment had the best chance of getting a medical exemption. Induction centers usually did not have the time or desire to challenge outside opinions.

vvaveteran.org...

Word spread through college students and upper class society as to what doctors and medical students were known to be anti-war and willing to write letters. Individuals could even be exempted for orthodontic work. One dentist in Los Angeles advertised that he would put braces on anyone, regardless of need, for $2,000 plus expenses. Though costly, for many people an exemption was worth the price.

www.cvhs.cv.k12.ca.us...


Trump, like many others, paid a doctor to write a note which he took to his local draft board. The draft board accepted the note, as they often did. I was around at the time. My number was 364 so I didn't have much to worry about.

“I had a doctor that gave me a letter — a very strong letter on the heels,” Mr. Trump said in the interview.

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: chadderson
a reply to: theantediluvian

Strike one, Donald.

Strike one two three and its a no hitter. Trump just lost his re election bid. hes DUN. not just DONE but DUN.

Now, there's a Republican that Democrats can vote for. He's a shoe-in on next elections !

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: face23785

Well I linked to Selective Service's own draft procedures, a .gov site.

Do you think that just maybe, procedures have changed in the past 50 years?
www.sss.gov...

Word spread through college students and upper class society as to what doctors and medical students were known to be anti-war and willing to write letters. Individuals could even be exempted for orthodontic work. One dentist in Los Angeles advertised that he would put braces on anyone, regardless of need, for $2,000 plus expenses. Though costly, for many people an exemption was worth the price.

www.cvhs.cv.k12.ca.us...


Trump, like many others, paid a doctor to write a note which he took to his local draft board. The draft board accepted the note, as they often did. I was around at the time. My number was 364 so I didn't have much to worry about.

“I had a doctor that gave me a letter — a very strong letter on the heels,” Mr. Trump said in the interview.

I did think of that actually, in fact that's kind of what I was asking for. Thanks for the read. There's a complete lack of any mention of changes to the medical procedures. The medical procedures say you have to report to the military processing center to be examined. It doesn't say anything about getting a private doctor to do it. Why do you keep posting stuff that helps my case?

The fact he says the doctor gave him a letter to take to the draft board doesn't mean it wasn't a military doctor. Your local draft board has to be updated on your status. So you'll acknowledge that none of the Trump quotes you've posted say whether he saw a military or civilian doctor right? And all official sources that we can find say he would've had to have seen a military doctor.

a reply to: face23785

And all official sources that we can find say he would've had to have seen a military doctor.

False. Nothing says that he did. He himself doesn't say that he did. He, like many others, got a letter from a doctor which he took to his draft board. That was good enough for them because there were plenty of other big strong men who couldn't afford to buy a doctor.

Take the guns first, go through due process second,

I knew someone that went through this in calif.

It took him 6 month to prove that his mental health problem was really a bad drug interaction of two drugs that had warnings that they should never be used at the same time.

Once the gun hold for mental health problem was lifted by the court he went to the cops to get his guns back and found that the cops had melted them down two week after taking them.

He did get new guns after the law suit against the doctor for malpractice in the drug mixup.
And moved out of calif.

I also know of diabetics that have been held on a 5150 mental health hold because of doctors not proscribing the right diabetes meds and there blood sugar levels went over 600.
Clinically, patients with hyperglycemia of over 600 are much more likely to have altered mental status

Trump says keep the guns.......Liberals say take away the guns....Somehow Trump like Hitler......Insanity getting worse...

a reply to: Jobeycool

Trump says keep the guns

Actually, Trump said take the guns first then ask questions.

Take the guns first, go through due process second,

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: face23785

And all official sources that we can find say he would've had to have seen a military doctor.

False. Nothing says that he did. He himself doesn't say that he did. He, like many others, got a letter from a doctor which he took to his draft board. That was good enough for them because there were plenty of other big strong men who couldn't afford to buy a doctor.

It says that that's what's required. It doesn't say we have different rules for rich people, it doesn't say you can get your private doctor to do the exam.

I'll post it again:

sss.gov

Physical, Mental, and Moral Evaluation of Registrants Registrants with low lottery numbers are ordered to report for a physical, mental, and moral evaluation at a Military Entrance Processing Station to determine whether they are fit for military service. Once he is notified of the results of the evaluation, a registrant will be given 10 days to file a claim for exemption, postponement, or deferment.

You've yet to post anything official that contradicts that, just biased, unsubstantiated claims from people who hate the rich and a quote from Trump that doesn't say what kind of doctor he saw and you're falsely claiming he says he saw his own doctor when he clearly doesn't say that. It's ambiguous at best, it doesn't prove anything. And even some of the stuff you've posted backs me up. You posted claims from admitted draft dodgers who said even after their doctor wrote them a bs excuse they still had to report to be examined. You've posted a sss.gov page specifically listing changes from the Vietnam era to now that contains no mention of changes to how the medical exams are done and the only official source I can find says you have to report to them to be examined.

Find something official that says there's an exception to that and they take a note from your private doctor that stops you from having to report to them for examination. Obviously I can't drag you back in time with me and watch Trump go through the process, I'm going by what the official procedure say and they don't say you can do what you claim he did. Provide some proof what you claim was allowed. I've given you a lot of chances here.

originally posted by: theantediluvian

As for the quote in the title. It's frankly disturbing and I'm hoping it will finally snap a few among Trump's supporters out of their stupors. Trump doesn't believe in the rule of law — not really — he sees due process as an impediment to be overcome or sidestepped when convenient for what he wants.

You know what I like about your long posts is I can go right to the end and get 99% of what you are aiming for... Why is it that Trump could go 100% alt left and the left would still explain how wrong he is...lol

He was saying that there can be situations where the safely of an individual and others could create a scenario that the removal of their guns is in the best interest and then sort it all out since the court is extremely slow. He is looking for doable options that CONGRESS would provide to him. He wants action...and that is something that Washington doesn't seem to actually do most of the time.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: projectvxn

Does that mean that someone who has been legally determined to be mentally ill but has committed no crime must be allowed to purchase a gun?

No, because an adjudication satisfies due process in these cases.

originally posted by: Phage
Actually, Trump said take the guns first then ask questions.

The bottom line is there are cases where we need distance between a person and their guns in a situation where the person is not stable. He is asking questions...seeking viable actions that we need...

a reply to: face23785

You've yet to post anything official that contradicts that

Heh. You want something official which says that everything wasn't done by the book? Fat chance.

Many men were obtaining medical deferments because their personal physicians were writing letters claiming ailments that would qualify them for exemptions. A favorite ailment was manic depression. The New York Times reported that one New York psychiatrist was writing about seventy-five letters a week for a fee of $200 each, all to be paid “cash in advance.” With the help of physicians, whether for financial gain or opposition to the war, the failure rate for Vietnam War-era inductees was triple what it had been during World War II.

poli.hevra.haifa.ac.il...


Enough off topic chit chat for me.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: theantediluvian

As for the quote in the title. It's frankly disturbing and I'm hoping it will finally snap a few among Trump's supporters out of their stupors. Trump doesn't believe in the rule of law — not really — he sees due process as an impediment to be overcome or sidestepped when convenient for what he wants.

He was saying that there can be situations where the safely of an individual and others could create a scenario that the removal of their guns is in the best interest and then sort it all out since the court is extremely slow. He is looking for doable options that CONGRESS would provide to him. He wants action...and that is something that Washington doesn't seem to actually do most of the time.

This is a legit point in that there are instances already where rights can be suspended without adjudication or due process. For example when cops find probable cause to arrest you they're effectively removing your personal freedom, albeit temporarily, and obviously before any type of adjudication has taken place. There are still legal guidelines in place for when they are allowed to do that and when they're not to.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: face23785

You've yet to post anything official that contradicts that

Heh. You want something official which says that everything wasn't done by the book? Fat chance.

Many men were obtaining medical deferments because their personal physicians were writing letters claiming ailments that would qualify them for exemptions. A favorite ailment was manic depression. The New York Times reported that one New York psychiatrist was writing about seventy-five letters a week for a fee of $200 each, all to be paid “cash in advance.” With the help of physicians, whether for financial gain or opposition to the war, the failure rate for Vietnam War-era inductees was triple what it had been during World War II.

poli.hevra.haifa.ac.il...


Enough off topic chit chat for me.

So now you're at least admitting the procedure was they were supposed to be examined by military doctors, they just weren't following procedure? That's progress I suppose. So let me get this straight, the draft office was in on this scheme with these rich people to let them avoid going to get a military doctor to examine them? They'd just accept these private doctor notes even though procedure didn't allow for that? Did they have to forge some exam records so no one asked why x, y or z registrant hadn't been processed according to procedures? How many people were involved in this conspiracy?