Homicides per state, wow.

a reply to: Subaeruginosa

Gun Murders in England, Scotland and Wales 2011/12 There were 640 Murders / Homicides in Britain (England, Scotland and Wales) in 2011/12 (10.43 per million population) Of these 640 Murders / Homicides, 44 involved a gun or firearm as the main weapon. Gun murders in Britain in 2011/12 represent 6% of the murder cases, (0.72 gun homicides per million population).

www.citizensreportuk.org...

what about the people who were killed by other means? As has been said at least once, if you can't find a gun, but you really want to kill someone, you will find a way.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
Yeah but do states like California not have more problems with gang violence for example.

Would also be interesting to look at those numbers per capita given that there are about 10 million more people in California than Texas yet only 471 more deaths. That alone pretty much debunks the premise of your thread.

And the highest percentage of illegals too...just had to put that out there...

I think a better measurement would be with cities and compare cities with anti-gun laws to ones that have favorable gun laws, and look at all criminal statistics. As example, are violent crimes less in cities where guns are outlawed or are they less in cities where guns are allowed to be owned and legally carried?

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Subaeruginosa

Gun Murders in England, Scotland and Wales 2011/12 There were 640 Murders / Homicides in Britain (England, Scotland and Wales) in 2011/12 (10.43 per million population) Of these 640 Murders / Homicides, 44 involved a gun or firearm as the main weapon. Gun murders in Britain in 2011/12 represent 6% of the murder cases, (0.72 gun homicides per million population).

www.citizensreportuk.org...

what about the people who were killed by other means? As has been said at least once, if you can't find a gun, but you really want to kill someone, you will find a way.

Murder rate in the UK is far lower than in the US. If you make it harder to kill (less guns), less people get killed.

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa

originally posted by: Edumakated
Look at Chicago... in 2017, we had 678 murders. 527 of the victims were black. 118 were hispanic. 20 were white/other. 15 unknown. So 78% of murder victims were black. Add in the hispanic gangbangers and you are 95%! Let that sink in for a moment. In the City of Chicago with 2.75 million people, only about 20 whites were murdered in 2017.

I don't know dude... But I think even if we go by your numbers and exclude Hispanics and blacks from your stats, we've still got 20 gun homicides, which still seems like a damn high amount, for a city of only 2.75 million... going by gunpolicy.org, the whole of the UK, which is a country of 65 million only had 23 gun related homicides in 2014.

But anyway, lets have a little fun and take the US completely out of the equation for a second... Since I've been told on ATS on multiple occasions that you can't compare stats of other countries with the US to prove that lax gun laws result in more gun related homicides... apparently because the US has a "unique" culture, which can't be compared to other countries... apparently.

Ok, so according to gunpolicy.org Cananda, which has a population of about 36 million and also has extremely lax gun laws, had 156 gun related homicides in 2014... that's 0.45 per 100,000 people.

But Australia on the other hand, which has a population of about 24 million and has extremely strict gun laws, only had 10 gun related homicides in 2014... Or 0.12 per 100,000 people.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me... the easier it is to legally obtain guns in any given society, has a direct correlation to how high their gun homicide rate is going to be.

Yes, there is a correlation, but the question is if it is statistically significant? I'd say 20 homicides in a city with poverty and crime is pretty insignificant especially when you consider how many legal and illegal firearms there are in circulation.

You are basically making an argument like Australians don't die in car accidents at the same rate because the speed limit capped at 55mph while Americans can drive at 80mph. Therefore it is the speed limit that is cause. However, you are ignoring that even if American's drive at 80mph, maybe they are driving two or three times the number of miles thus increasing the likelihood of a crash. In this case, we are saying only 20 deaths in a city awash with legal and illegal firearms is actually not that bad considering the availability of guns.

While you can argue that if there were no guns, the rate would be lower, I don't think it makes sense logically. I can also argue if people walked everywhere, we could stop 30,000 deaths from automobile accidents. However, the reality is that we aren't going to ban cars and we have accepted that there will be deaths. People would never die from plane crashes, if we just didn't fly. Kids would never drown in swimming pools if we banned backyard pools.

There are cultural differences whether you want to acknowledge them or not. We don't know if those 20 deaths were drug related, domestic violence, robberies, etc.

Regardless, my point was mainly that gun violence is largely concentrated in a specific demographic.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

Murder rate in the UK is far lower than in the US. If you make it harder to kill (less guns), less people get killed.

Is that because Americans are more aggressive by nature or because the UK makes it harder to kill? Remember that correlation does not also mean causation.

I would say that Americans are typically more aggressive and much quicker to go to the extreme than brits. All we need to do is compare our police forces to see how they mirror the society they work in.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Subaeruginosa

Gun Murders in England, Scotland and Wales 2011/12 There were 640 Murders / Homicides in Britain (England, Scotland and Wales) in 2011/12 (10.43 per million population) Of these 640 Murders / Homicides, 44 involved a gun or firearm as the main weapon. Gun murders in Britain in 2011/12 represent 6% of the murder cases, (0.72 gun homicides per million population).

www.citizensreportuk.org...

what about the people who were killed by other means? As has been said at least once, if you can't find a gun, but you really want to kill someone, you will find a way.

Murder rate in the UK is far lower than in the US. If you make it harder to kill (less guns), less people get killed.

the population in the US is a bit larger than the UK. My point was there were still homicides without guns. People still needed to kill other people.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: ScepticScot

Murder rate in the UK is far lower than in the US. If you make it harder to kill (less guns), less people get killed.

Is that because Americans are more aggressive by nature or because the UK makes it harder to kill? Remember that correlation does not also mean causation.

I would say that Americans are typically more aggressive and much quicker to go to the extreme than brits. All we need to do is compare our police forces to see how they mirror the society they work in.

Why would Americans be more aggressive by nature? ( and if you think they are you have never been an old firm game).

Is one of the reasons US police are more aggressive due to the far higher likelihood of being shot? Armed police in the UK are the exception because armed criminals are the exception.

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Subaeruginosa

Gun Murders in England, Scotland and Wales 2011/12 There were 640 Murders / Homicides in Britain (England, Scotland and Wales) in 2011/12 (10.43 per million population) Of these 640 Murders / Homicides, 44 involved a gun or firearm as the main weapon. Gun murders in Britain in 2011/12 represent 6% of the murder cases, (0.72 gun homicides per million population).

www.citizensreportuk.org...

what about the people who were killed by other means? As has been said at least once, if you can't find a gun, but you really want to kill someone, you will find a way.

Murder rate in the UK is far lower than in the US. If you make it harder to kill (less guns), less people get killed.

so is the population. but thanks Captain Obvious.

The key word was 'rate'.

a reply to: ScepticScot

I edited my post to clarify my point

a reply to: Edumakated

Lack of family structure.

IME, kids who have solid families are more likely to to be decent kids no matter their background.

a reply to: ketsuko

I wonder if we can correlate those statistics?

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Subaeruginosa

Gun Murders in England, Scotland and Wales 2011/12 There were 640 Murders / Homicides in Britain (England, Scotland and Wales) in 2011/12 (10.43 per million population) Of these 640 Murders / Homicides, 44 involved a gun or firearm as the main weapon. Gun murders in Britain in 2011/12 represent 6% of the murder cases, (0.72 gun homicides per million population).

www.citizensreportuk.org...

what about the people who were killed by other means? As has been said at least once, if you can't find a gun, but you really want to kill someone, you will find a way.

Yeah sure, if you really were determined, you probably would find another way, if no gun was available... But a majority of committed murders were just an emotional 'in the moment act'... gunpolicy.org has a homicide (any method) section, which reflects this... The homicide rate always being higher amongst the first world countries, which have citizens that are more likely to have a gun at their disposal, when they have a psychotic type meltdown and attempt to kill another human being.

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: ScepticScot

I edited my post to clarify my point

Slightly disappointed I have lost my rank in your edit.

Absolutely there will always be murders but reducing the easy availability of firearms seems to reduce the rate.

If you really really want to kill someone you will, but using other methods often involves more determination and luck* to succeed.

*Possibly not best word in this context.

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
Yeah but do states like California not have more problems with gang violence for example.

Would also be interesting to look at those numbers per capita given that there are about 10 million more people in California than Texas yet only 471 more deaths. That alone pretty much debunks the premise of your thread.

the premise of my thread is why are people here killing each other. I presented some facts. I asked some questions. Should California get a prize for killing less per capita?

Why are Americans killing each other? That is what I want to know. And sorry, you may not be the best one to answer that question.

reason? mostly because anyone outside their sphere is worthless.

a reply to: ScepticScot

you can be General Obvious if you like. But my point stands. Telling half of the story is cool if you are talking to someone who won't look for the rest.

a reply to: Subaeruginosa

Have you looked into how many legal gun owners snap, and kill multiple folks? (with guns obviously)

I don't know, but I don't usually hear about them, I hear about the mentally ill people who have voices telling them to kill others. I wonder why that is?

originally posted by: ScepticScot

Why would Americans be more aggressive by nature? ( and if you think they are you have never been an old firm game).

Is one of the reasons US police are more aggressive due to the far higher likelihood of being shot? Armed police in the UK are the exception because armed criminals are the exception.

Americans are bigger, stronger, meaner than brits...nasty creatures...that's why you all lost the war...twice...lol

California does have a lot of drug-related and gang crime. It'll be interesting to see if that changes with the legalization thing.

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: ScepticScot

you can be General Obvious if you like. But my point stands. Telling half of the story is cool if you are talking to someone who won't look for the rest.

What is the other half the story? The US has a higher rate of handgun ownership than any comparable country. It also has a higher murder rate.

I wouldn't say it is the sole reason, but I think it's fairly obviously (salute a superior officer damn it) a reason.

en.wikipedia.org...

Look at this chart. USA isn't anywhere near the top when you break it down like this.
Interesting.