Officials: US agrees to provide lethal weapons to Ukraine

originally posted by: jonnywhite Russia is in the wrong, and I'm not confident they will get wiser.

If the Brits and Yanks had left Ukraine to be an ally of Moscow and not backed the coup then there would have been no need for Russia to go into Ukraine to defend their interests. You can pump as much NATO and EU and dosh into Ukraine but as it is Slav and mostly part of the circle of Russian domain then it can't be removed from that location. It will always be of special interest to Moscow.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: jonnywhite Russia is in the wrong, and I'm not confident they will get wiser.

If the Brits and Yanks had left Ukraine to be an ally of Moscow and not backed the coup then there would have been no need for Russia to go into Ukraine to defend their interests. You can pump as much NATO and EU and dosh into Ukraine but as it is Slav and mostly part of the circle of Russian domain then it can't be removed from that location. It will always be of special interest to Moscow.

Ukraine is not merely Slav. Ukraine is eastern Slav. There are 3 eastern Slav countries. Russia. Belarus. Ukraine. Every Ukrainian speaks Russian. If Russia took a chunk of Lithuania, you can bet your house Lithuanians would fight to their last drop of blood. When Russia took Crimea from Ukraine, Ukrainian soldiers joined the Russian army. That's because Ukrainians don't see Russians as foreigners much less as enemies.

a reply to: zukitar

Totally know where you're coming from. Vey interesting what you state above too regarding the eastern Slavs. Ok I got a mate from Kiev, he's actually an Azeri but lived nearly all his life in Kiev as during the USSR people moved all over and were just Soviet citizens not nations. He says that what we see in the BBC news regarding Ukraine is totally incorrect. He told me how the economy has gone to crap since the western orchestrated coup, how the price of utilities like gas and fuel has gone through the roof, how factories have closed down all over the place, how most of the people in Kiev have no problem with Russia as they see Russians as their brothers.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

If Crimea belonging to Russia was so self-evident then there's be no need for the war, would there? And the west can choose to recognize Russia's claim on Crimea, or not. Even that you want to deny them?

The righteousness of Crimea belonging to Russia is irrelevant and subjective. The problem is a lack of respect for Ukraine's sovereignty. It would be hypocritical to turn a blind eye. For a state like the US it would also damage it's credibility and prestige. Why should other countries honor their treaties with the US if the US does not help it's friends?

Russia's actions also show contempt for the Geneva Convention. It would be dishonorable to tolerate this.

a reply to: Theprodicalson

I'd say America's proxy wars during the cold war all had some kind of sensible goals behind them, they weren't fought just to piss off the Soviets. Not trying to say they where just.

originally posted by: Cutepants
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

If Crimea belonging to Russia was so self-evident then there's be no need for the war, would there? And the west can choose to recognize Russia's claim on Crimea, or not. Even that you want to deny them?

The righteousness of Crimea belonging to Russia is irrelevant and subjective. The problem is a lack of respect for Ukraine's sovereignty. It would be hypocritical to turn a blind eye. For a state like the US it would also damage it's credibility and prestige. Why should other countries honor their treaties with the US if the US does not help it's friends?

Russia's actions also show contempt for the Geneva Convention. It would be dishonorable to tolerate this.

a reply to: Theprodicalson

I'd say America's proxy wars during the cold war all had some kind of sensible goals behind them, they weren't fought just to piss off the Soviets. Not trying to say they where just.

There was no war when Russia took back Crimea. No one was killed or hurt when Russia took back Crimea. Now Donbas was another story, but that is a story for another day.

a reply to: zukitar

Yeah, but the two are related. Surely Crimea was the nr. 1 objective of the whole process.

originally posted by: Cutepants
a reply to: zukitar

Yeah, but the two are related. Surely Crimea was the nr. 1 objective of the whole process.

Russians dreamed about taking back Crimea for 60 years. It was very important for them.

originally posted by: Cutepants
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

The righteousness of Crimea belonging to Russia is irrelevant and subjective. The problem is a lack of respect for Ukraine's sovereignty.

But see it from Moscow's perspective. Ukraine has been taken over by a western orchestrated coup just like happened in so many eastern European states that were taken over by NATO / EU when western (usually) USA educated politicians like Saakishvilli were sent back home and installed into power. You can understand why Moscow acted immediately to keep Sevastopol and its industrial Donbas region of significance.

originally posted by: zukitarRussians dreamed about taking back Crimea for 60 years. It was very important for them.

Exactly. It's like Britain giving up on Gibraltar or the Falklands, it's just not going to happen.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: zukitarRussians dreamed about taking back Crimea for 60 years. It was very important for them.

Exactly. It's like Britain giving up on Gibraltar or the Falklands, it's just not going to happen.

A better example would be Britain giving up Northern Ireland to Ireland. Crimea is bigger than Israel and has millions of people.

a reply to: zukitar

I can see their reasons, I don't wish to deny them Crimea. Russians are a cool people. AFAIK the Crimeans even wanted to join Russia, obviously a lot of them actually are Russian. But I see it as a threat to Europe and I sympathize with those Ukrainians who want to be free of Russian hegemony. Looks like they got Crimea though, good for the ole Russians

originally posted by: Cutepants
a reply to: zukitar

I can see their reasons, I don't wish to deny them Crimea. Russians are a cool people. AFAIK the Crimeans even wanted to join Russia, obviously a lot of them actually are Russian. But I see it as a threat to Europe and I sympathize with those Ukrainians who want to be free of Russian hegemony. Looks like they got Crimea though, good for the ole Russians

Ukrainians are eastern Slavs. EU is dominated by Germany. Germany would never trust Ukraine enough to let Ukraine join EU. Who's to say Party of Regions won't be elected in Ukraine again.

a reply to: zukitar

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say here? It's common knowledge that they are eastern Slavs. And let them stay out of the EU then if Germany won't have them, not my problem. I'll leave it to the Ukrainians to vote for or against their Party of Regions. Apparently Russia does not expect them to be elected again in the near future, or else she wouldn't have had to use force.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Look, I get that Russia has some sort of national trauma after loosing the cold war, and after communism. But it's not the west's job to coddle them and make them feel like everything is OK again, especially not at the expense of their own interests.

You are hell-bent on Ukraine being owned by Russia. The Ukrainians themselves disagree, but you cannot accept this so to you they are simpletons who don't know their own good, too easily tricked by the evil yanks. Such tiresome imperialism. And you can't decide whether they are a bunch of Nazi's who want to genocide Russians, or if they in fact love Russia and anyone claiming otherwise is brainwashed by western MSM.

You blame the Americans for staging a coup. The hypocrisy is astonishing. The Russians used masked, unmarked soldiers to subvert Ukrainian law. We can then see that Russia has done all the things you project on America, and then some. There is no moral high ground for Russia here.

You also accuse the west of war-mongering. But only a few days ago there was another incident with a Russian warship skirting English territory, the Admiral Gorshkov. This was not the first aggressive maneuvering from Russia. Are Russian air and sea captains really so incompetent at navigation? No, it's intentional. So ask yourself who is really picking a fight here? And ask yourself how it is that even the Ukrainians, their Slavic brothers and sisters, are so suspicious of Russia that they have to be bullied into cooperation? (Yet another accusation you project on America.)

a reply to: pheonix358

America has a large base in Australia. Pine Gap.

If America invaded Australia, would you be sitting here saying?

"America had / has a very big military base there so no invasion happened. "

Frankly I am disappointing by just how ill-advised the average Australian is regarding geopolitics. You're not the first. That's if you are Australian and not Russian.

Hopefully more advanced weapons can be sold or given to Ukraine. Perhaps place a ABM shield there, after all Putin thinks these can have nukes in them and be re-purposed as a first-strike weapon.

originally posted by: Cutepants
a reply to: ufoorbhunter


You are hell-bent on Ukraine being owned by Russia.

Not at all. Russia doesn't even want Ukraine. Why would anyone want it? What a mess that non real country is in. Who'd want it? All Russia wants is for the EU and NATO (Yanks, Brits) to stay out of Ukraine. Russia starts these little wars to create frozen conflicts thus rendering any NATO takeover virtually impossible. This would not have happened if the west had stayed out of Ukraine.

Btw I'm no 'fan boy' of Russia. I acknowledge that Russia has been badly treated since what you term as losing the cold war, which it dd't btw, it did the honourable thing and pulled out of eastern Europe with no guarantees that the west would once again creep up to its borders after having had 100 years of non stop attempts at destroying it.

Russia v Britain has been going on all this time. A ship off our coat while our military is in their old USSR. t's swings and roundabouts. We undermined their USSR by any means possible, while they helped destroy the British Empire and South Africa, we'd still have many colonies to this day had the Soviets not got involved in destroying our Empire through weapons supplies and socialist propaganda. Even at the very end of our colonies they were attacking South Africa using Cuban troops and destroyed the French in Algeria using similar Korean troops, the Russians destroyed our western empires and we destroyed theirs in the USSR and eastern Europe.

The whole thing is crazy and Moscow, China and USA along with its poodles like UK need to get to a table and work out spheres of influence because at some point all this pushing and use of proxy wars is going to get full on and that could well lead to nuclear war. All sides are spending loads on war, the preparation for war, investing crazy amounts to make war, a new way is needed really before it all ends up in war.

a reply to: Xcathdra

So the US is winding u-p Ukrane again a?

It was going along exactly as planned until their stooge fleeced the country, took all the money the US gave him, sent the tnr broke and was secretly doing deals with big bad eveil russians.

Must have a new man running the place now.

Certainly has somthing to do with NK. the US has no use for the ukraine otherwise.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

it did the honourable thing and pulled out of eastern Europe with no guarantees that the west would once again creep up to its borders after having had 100 years of non stop attempts at destroying it.

This isn't what happened at all.

The Soviet Union collapsed. It is equivalent to States succeeding from the United States of America. If for example California did that, it wouldn't be the United States of America pulling out of California - it would be the United States of America falling apart.

If Russia invades Ukraine in order to keep the west out, then guess what? They're still invading.

a reply to: C0bzz

Moscow didn't have to pull out of Germany and estern Europe when it did. Nobody forced it out. Moscow pulled out because USA and USSR pulled back from near conflict and gave independence back to eastern Europe when it became clear Germany was not in a position to restart invading the USSR. It took til this long as the generation that suffered so terribly losing 30mln dead and destruction of their landscape was dying off by then and the new generation was taking a chance that a new mindset had taken place in central Europe. Moscow pulled out of Afghanistan in the same manner leaving Kabul in a very organised manner under an allied leadership, unfortunately the west was still hell bent on destroying Russia so they continued teir mujahudeen support of destroyed another state. All the time Moscow was going a little more capitalistwhile we were shedding socialism too at that time, Gorby and Thatcher were capitalising both our states, only thing is since then we in Britain have become mostly a socialist state once again thanks to Tony invade the middle eat Blair and his successors. The whole thing is smoke and mirrors and we are looking into a very thick fog

Although Javelin is good, Kornet IMO is better. It's more accurate given it's laser guided, and Javelin being TV guided can be fooled if the tank emits a smoke screen and changes its shape.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

I am not a historian nor do I live in Europe, but it appears you are putting rose tinted glasses on this.

The Revolutions of 1989 formed part of a revolutionary wave in the late 1980s and early 1990s that resulted in the end of communist rule in Central and Eastern Europe and beyond. The period is sometimes called the Autumn of Nations,[4][5][6][7][8] a play on the term "Spring of Nations" that is sometimes used to describe the Revolutions of 1848.

The events of the full-blown revolution began in Poland in 1989[9][10] and continued in Hungary, East Germany, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia and Romania. One feature common to most of these developments was the extensive use of campaigns of civil resistance, demonstrating popular opposition to the continuation of one-party rule and contributing to the pressure for change (albeit a lot of western equipment doesn't appear to have a laser warning receiver...).

en.wikipedia.org...

Again, the Iron Curtain, Warsaw Pact, and the Soviet Union fell apart. It wasn't Russia trying to be "honorable". I agree that many nations have been going backwards in many respects and that in many respects the Cold War never ended. This includes the US, UK, and Russia.

a reply to: zukitar

Javelin is IR guided, not TV guided.

Also laser warning receivers are a thing. Whilst I am sure Kornet is impressive in its own right, Javelin is fire and forget, Kornet isn't. Kornet can be detected via laser warning receiver, Javelin can't. Smoke screens are likely effective against both kinds of seeker, but with Javelin there is no warning.

But RUSSIA STRONGK!!!