Christ and Capitalism

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

I don't understand your point.

Just because you might be born in what is considered a Christian home or nation does not make you a Christian . It works differently for Muslims and Jews . ps check my edit above

being born a muslim or a jew does not automatically mean you will be a muslim or a jew for the rest of your life. The same as being born to Christian parents.

Unless you are born in a place where they kill apostates.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Because Christianity is faith based it is impossible for a baby to exercise faith . By grace you are saved through faith and not of yourself it is a gift of God . Whosoever believes shall be saved . Islam not so much . To be a Jew you mush have a blood line although a person can practice Judaism and convert .

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

Because Christianity is faith based it is impossible for a baby to exercise faith . By grace you are saved through faith and not of yourself it is a gift of God . Whosoever believes shall be saved . Islam not so much . To be a Jew you mush have a blood line although a person can practice Judaism and convert .

I think you are getting hung up on the wrong point. It doesn't matter how many muslims vs christians. We are talking about the babylonian origins of the biblical epic. And by proxy whether jesus existed and what the common economic beliefs were at the time.

a reply to: Woodcarver

You made the point that there were more Muslims then Christians . I was pointing out that that fact really didn't support the point that you were trying to make which was it must be more truer then Christianity .

We are talking about the babylonian origins of the biblical epic.

I edited my post showing that the two differ . We could also say that most if not all ancient cultures have a flood story . True they may differ in the details but a flood none the less . We can find a long day or night story like the one in the Bible but told differently . A long day none the less . Water is considered wet to most people . Killing is killing to most people . Stealing is stealing to most people . Even without ancient text most cultures share common laws of faux pas .

Most cultures have a belief in a deity [s]

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

You made the point that there were more Muslims then Christians . I was pointing out that that fact really didn't support the point that you were trying to make which was it must be more truer then Christianity .

We are talking about the babylonian origins of the biblical epic.

I edited my post showing that the two differ . We could also say that most if not all ancient cultures have a flood story . True they may differ in the details but a flood none the less . We can find a long day or night story like the one in the Bible but told differently . A long day none the less . Water is considered wet to most people . Killing is killing to most people . Stealing is stealing to most people . Even without ancient text most cultures share common laws of faux pas .

Most cultures have a belief in a deity [s]

And what was the point i was making by saying that there are more Muslims than Christians? This will test your reading comprehension.

originally posted by: musicismagic
A seed of life can not grow upon a rock. But given a direction of the wind, that seed will find a home to blossom.

Oh seeds will grow on a rock in a crack but will have no ROOTS and die. The parable teaches me to have roots in something nourishing as the plant is a metaphor for the mind, feed it the right stuff or it will die. "Alice, feed your head".

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: Revolution9

I guess flexing the biblical muscle is cool. But what would Jesus say about capitalize today?

Just take textile manufacturing. Go to any walmart or fill in the blank retailer and look at the supply chain.
The new master will not even give a worker (servant) a penny to invest. The workers are modern day slaves that were better off when the industries were not exploiting them.

I don't think your Bible verse applies in 2017 like you are trying to insist.


.

I have looked at the numbers, in my head so to speak, and the Earth is nearing a point where the jobs to people ratio is going down. More people, more work needed is hitting a wall. This is why the elite are finding ways to cull the 'useless eaters' and America appears a target for culling by the anti capitalists. If the laws were being applied like DOJ calling out AT&T on a monopoly type play when it happens, then that gives the financially challenged a more level playing field . Right now we have that pyramid and the Totalitarians of all persuasions are clamoring for control of the whole Earth like some James Bond villains.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

The majority opinion is not how we judge what is true and what is not. Where is the evidence of his existence? There is none. Only in this book and there are a lot of holes in that bucket.

... I was talking about historians... Not everybody can be a historian/scholar, and I mentioned that there were Roman historians who were pagan and wrote about the existence of Jesus Christ.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
It seems there is a direct effort to ignore the fact there there is no verified evidence of this guy's life.
...

There is actually plenty of direct evidence, not opinion but evidence, that Jesus Christ did exist.

For example:

Publius Cornelius Tacitus was a Roman historian and Senator who detested both Christians and Jews. He wrote a series of books named "the Annals" which dealt mainly with the fire that nearly burned all of Rome in 64 AD.

In book 15 chapter 44 Tacitus wrote:

In his Annals, Tacitus tells of a fire that swept through Rome in the 60s, for which some were blaming Nero himself...

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

www.mesacc.edu...

The accounts of Pliny the Younger.(63 - 113 A.D)

In the following letter Pliny the Younger admits to torturing Christians, and he mentions how those who denied to be Christian cursed the Christ.

...

Those who denied that they were or ever had been Christians, when they swore before me, called on the gods and offered incense and wine to your image (which I had ordered brought in for this [purpose], along with images of the gods), and also cursed Christ (which, it is said, it is impossible to force those who are real Christians to do) I thought worthy to be acquitted. Others named by an informer, said they had been Christians, but now denied [it]; certainly they had been, but had lapsed, some three years ago, some more; and more than one [lit. not nobody] over twenty years ago. These all worshiped both your image and the images of the gods and cursed Christ.
...

www.tyrannus.com...

There were attempts by early non-Christian authors, including Romans, to discredit Jesus, and false stories were made, including one made by Celsus (circa 178 AD) in which he claimed Jesus' father was a Roman soldier.

...
Celsus was a friend of Lucien of Samosata, who was Syrian rhetorician and satirist.

While none of Celsus' original writings have survived intact, the following passages from Alethès Lógos were quoted by the 3rd century Christian theologian Origen in his eight-volume work Contra Celsum or Katà Kélsou (248 AD), meaning "Against Celsus", for the purpose of refuting Celsus' claims. A copy of Alethès Lógos had been found by Ambrosius and was sent to his friend Origen with a request to refute it.

"Jesus had come from a village in Judea, and was the son of a poor Jewess who gained her living by working with her hands [spinning]. His mother had been turned out of doors by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, on being convicted of adultery [with a soldier named Panthera (i. 32)]. Being thus driven away by her husband, and wandering about in disgrace, she gave birth to Jesus, a bastard. Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god."
...

cameltranslations.blogspot.com...

Lucian of Samosata (120 - 180 A.D.)

Lucian was a satirist who often ridiculed Christians and Jesus.

...
The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day- the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account...

link

Why would pagans, including Roman, scholars try to discredit a man who didn't exist?

Notice that what they would attack was who the father of Jesus was, they didn't contradict or deny Jesus Christ/Jesus Nazarene existed. These attempts to ridicule who the father, they knew who his mother was, of Jesus was was an attempt to ridicule Jesus himself.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: Revolution9

Its a system based on inherent greed. How easy is it for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven

a reply to: Revolution9
Since you had something to say about the notion of giving back to Caesar what is Caesar's, is there anything you would like to say about the notion of giving back to God what is God's?

That “Caesar’s” authority to exact payment even from Christians could not be allowed to infringe upon the Christian’s service to God was shown by Jesus’ statement that ‘God’s things should be paid back to God.’ (Mt 22:21) Jesus’ apostles showed that they understood that their duty toward human authorities was limited, or relative, and not absolute, for when later brought before the Jewish high court they firmly declared: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men,” that is, when human laws or requirements clashed with those of God.—Ac 5:29.

Source: Caesar: Insight, Volume 1

For example, 2 Cor.10:3:

For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare* [Lit., “we are not doing military service.”] according to what we are in the flesh.

“No Part of the World”

“The world has hated them, because they are no part of the world.”—JOHN 17:14.

What It Means: Being no part of the world, Jesus was neutral in the social and political conflicts of the day. “If my kingdom were part of this world,” he explained, “my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.” (John 18:36) He also urged his followers to shun attitudes, speech, and conduct condemned in God’s Word.—Matthew 20:25-27.

How Early Christians Measured Up: According to religion writer Jonathan Dymond, the early Christians “refused to engage in [war]; whatever were the consequences, whether reproach, or imprisonment, or death.” They chose to suffer rather than compromise their neutral stand. Their moral code also set them apart. Christians were told: “Because you do not continue running with them in this course to the same low sink of debauchery, they are puzzled and go on speaking abusively of you.” (1 Peter 4:4) Historian Will Durant wrote that Christians “were troubling the pleasure-mad pagan world with their piety and their decency.”

Who Fit the Pattern Today? Regarding Christian neutrality, the New Catholic Encyclopedia asserts: “Conscientious objection is morally indefensible.” An article in the Reformierte Presse states that a report by African Rights, a human rights organization, on the 1994 Rwandan genocide established the participation of all churches, “with the exception of Jehovah’s Witnesses.”

Discussing the Nazi Holocaust, a high-school teacher lamented that “no group or organization of regular citizens spoke out against the mass of lies, cruelty, and eventual atrocities.” After consulting with the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, he wrote: “I now had my answer.” He learned that Jehovah’s Witnesses stood firm in their beliefs in spite of the harsh treatment they received.
...

Jehovahs Witnesses- [a destructive cult?] Persecution of a peaceable people

a reply to: Revolution9



Two "sermons on the mount" Are they diametrically opposed? Um, yes.

a reply to: purplemer

Its a system based on inherent greed. How easy is it for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven

There is a program of the ancient Israelite culture/religion that Micheal Hudson brought up in a discussion recently that makes perfect sense when looking at the system we have today . Its the idea of the Jubilee where all debt's are forgiven and all property reverts back to the original owners .
Having a system (capitalism) is not a bad thing but like any system there is the possibility of abuse . The native Indians of North America was all for it and practiced it . They also had potlatch where usually it was a contest for the richest in the groups to gift away what they had acquired through trading .

The idea of property to the Natives was one of the main issues the Europeans found bizarre and wanted to change their mind sets and even went so far as to make potlatch's illegal .I would suspect that the Bankers and money changers would look at a jubilee year with contempt seeing its debt that makes their world go around .

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Having a system (capitalism) is not a bad thing

Define it as you wish. It is inherently a system based on greed.

a reply to: purplemer

Define it as you wish. It is inherently a system based on greed.

Cooperative business ventures have a bit of self "greed" if you like but I think true greed is when you want it all .Having a reasonable expectation of profits is not being greedy . Profit margins are essential just to stay in business that in a lot of cases provides a service others are willing to pay in order to play ,so to speak . Taking advantage of the system to create monopolies is not a good thing and there are usually laws on the books for that kind of issue . Its issues of big box stores that put mom and pop out of business and usually the greed of the consumer looking to pinch every penny that becomes a real issue . Maybe price controls to help address that like anti-dumping laws .

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Yes its greed. It is a system that is destroying our planet for wealth. It creates massive wealth disparity for the haves and have nots.

Not exactly looking after and caring for each other. Infact it reinforces the opposite behavior.

originally posted by: purplemer

Define it as you wish. It is inherently a system based on greed.

Not really, it is a system based on trade. Monopolies are based on greed, same as total government control. You know, it is answers like yours that sometimes I wish people like you would see how life in a real socialist system is like if just for a week. Lots of people are complaining when compared to socialist systems throughout the world people have much less.

originally posted by: purplemer
a reply to: the2ofusr1

Yes its greed. It is a system that is destroying our planet for wealth. It creates massive wealth disparity for the haves and have nots.

Not exactly looking after and caring for each other. Infact it reinforces the opposite behavior.

Is that why world systems have been changing into a socialist system? The more countries have turned socialistic, the more disparity there is around the world.

originally posted by: openminded2011

Two "sermons on the mount" Are they diametrically opposed? Um, yes.

Isn't it ironic that the people who call "to end greed" in Hollywood are the richest and greediest people on the planet?

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Dont make the assumption I am a socialist. Both systems are failed systems. Nothing wrong with having less if it is shared out correctly. Have you seen the piles of plastic, the dead spots in the ocean, the complete removal of ecosystem functions.

We need to move from a quanity based system to a quality bases system.

Wake up

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

s that why world systems have been changing into a socialist system? The more countries have turned socialistic, the more disparity there is around the world.

As i said i am not a socialist. But stop making things up. Capitalism causes wealth disparity. If you dont understand that go and play a game on monopoly. Why do you think the game was invented.