Celiac disease/ gluten

I was diagnosed with celiac disease a few years ago. Previously had no autoimmune issues or allergies. I can eat non gluten fiber just fine. My endoscopy/ biopsy showed damage. Im now very sensitive to trace amounts and have pretty bad symptoms if glutened.

Ive read.about various theories that roundup used in genetically engineered crops has something to do with it.

Anyone have any theories?

originally posted by: Wulfrida
I was diagnosed with celiac disease a few years ago. Previously had no autoimmune issues or allergies. I can eat non gluten fiber just fine. My endoscopy/ biopsy showed damage. Im now very sensitive to trace amounts and have pretty bad symptoms if glutened.

Ive read.about various theories that roundup used in genetically engineered crops has something to do with it.

Anyone have any theories?

Yes. This article will clear up most of your questions.

Why Modern Wheat Is Worse Than Older Wheat
www.healthline.com...

However, almost all of the wheat eaten today is high-yield dwarf wheat, which was developed by cross-breeding and crude genetic manipulation around the year 1960.

Dwarf wheat has shorter stems and a much greater yield. Therefore it is much, much cheaper than the older varieties and more economically feasible.

.............

Gluten is actually not a single protein, it is a family of different proteins and only some of them are recognized by the immune system of celiac patients.

One of the gluten proteins that seems to be problematic is called Glia-α9. One study found that the amount of this protein is significantly higher in modern wheat (13).
..........

BOTTOM LINE:
Modern wheat contains more of the problematic glutens and there are some studies showing that older wheat varieties don't cause a reaction in celiac patients.

a reply to: Wulfrida

Interesting question--I don't really have any answers, except that my wife was diagnosed with a gluten intolerance, but not full-on Celiac Disease. For years, she tried exceptionally hard to rid her diet of gluten, since if she's intolerant, why not just remove it nearly completely, right?

Well, after years of trying this and being very dedicated to it, she finally took stock as to where her health was and realized that she felt worse after all of that effort than she did before (I think that it mainly started as being a possible cause of joint pain).

So, she started eating gluten again. At home, it's mostly organic stuff, and it's still relatively limited (rice pastas, etc.), but if she's out and feels like pizza, we'll have some pizza.

She feels better overall, her energy is better, and her headaches that she was having have diminished somewhat.

My whole point in my rambling is that there really may be something to the whole GMO and Round-Up contamination that non-organic gluten has that could be the source of the issue in some people. By no means am I advocating that you just start downing organic gluten-containing food, but it's definitely worth researching more and maybe slowly testing if organic gluten causes you the same problems.

Everyone's body is different--I hope for the best for you.

a reply to: Wulfrida

It might sound gross and something out of the ordinary to boot, but fecal transplants should be made to be more common with patients that suffer from digestive system disorders.



Its my theory that synthetic molecules by way of diet and ingestion are wrecking the natural balance of microbiome in our bodies. 70% of health stems from how healthy one's microbiome /digestive system is, and it pains me to see synthetic measures taken that could be thwarted by using donor bacteria naturally.

I feel blessed to have never even felt indigestion or heart burn. I'd be more than happy to donate my fecal matter to a fellow human's benefit! People shouldn't be offended when they're told to eat crap. People should start asking their doctor... 'which fecal transplant is right for me?'

Around 2011 there was a change in the allowed amount of glyphosate in grains The FDA increased the alowable amounts quite a bit.. It was allowed to be sprayed preharvest to control fungus growth and to make the grain dry out more before harvest. Glyphosate is a long term inhibitor of acetylcholineesterase and can cause some problems associated with too high acetylcholine in the body. This can cause problems with the guts.

I suppose that this was done to stop contamination since people avoid the bleaching and bromating process, which actually may be much less harmful than the herbicide treatment of the wheat, rye, and barley grains. Oats too, Cheerios had way too much glyphosate in their cereal when checked.

This might be why some people are having problems more with grains now, organic grains do not have this. A diagnosis of Celiac disease can actually be something different, they diagnose this by symptoms. To get alternative grains, many are organic, or some other grains cannot have the herbicide sprayed on the field because it lowers next years production.

There could be more than one cause of the celiac symptoms. Someone mentioned the raise in gluten in wheat, that is correct, wheat strains were selected to raise gluten and opioid peptide chemistry in the grains. The problematic opioid peptide is in the gluten. So what is the cause of this, the opioid peptide would be considered a plant defense chemical to stop overbrowsing by animals.

Yes I have heard about glyphosate, increased pesticides, and genetic engineering as causes. That was my first assumption, anyway. I had also heard about the introduction of winter wheat, and how it had gluten proteins that are more difficult to digest, and that its genetics had contaminated most strains of wheat (since wheat is open pollinated).

The third theory I heard (the only one not mentioned yet by a previous poster) is that changes in the way bread is baked are related to the increase in celiac and gluten intolerance. When our great grandmothers baked bread, the dough might take all day to rise. It would eventually get baked later in the day. Now in modern factories, each loaf of bread goes from dry flour to packaged product in about an hour (partly due to strains of quick rising yeast). It’s great for the factory, but not so good for digestible gluten, because the yeast doesn’t have enough time to break the gluten proteins down.

I personally think all of these changes have contributed a little bit, and each body is different. Some people do find they can eat organic wheat bread, or bread baked at home that spent all day rising. Other people have developed a reaction to the wheat itself and can never eat it comfortably again. Finally, there’s people like me, whose reaction to wheat is so strong that I avoid it at all costs and if there is a wheat I can actually eat, I will never know, because I’m not going to try it.

Sorry to welcome you to the club I hope, like me, your consolation prize for being gluten intolerant/celiac is that you lose a bunch of weight

a reply to: Wulfrida

originally posted by: anotheramethyst
Yes I have heard about glyphosate, increased pesticides, and genetic engineering as causes.

The third theory I heard (the only one not mentioned yet by a previous poster) is that changes in the way bread is baked are related to the increase in celiac and gluten intolerance.

I have an aunt with Celiac Disease and she is like you, she has to avoid it at all cost as it almost killed her before she was diagnosed with the disease.

Celiac disease is not new, it was first formally recognized in 1880 by Dr. Samuel Gee but it wasn't until the 1950s when we started paying attention, and we started earlier and better diagnosis. Genetic engineering, glyphosate pesticides and GMOs did not exist in the 1800s when the disease was identified.

I know science hasn't pinpointed to a specific cause yet, but let's bear in mind that we are still adapting to its consumption: grains have only been used for approximately 10.000 years which is a very small percentage of our time on this planet. We spent millions of years eating a gluten free diet, until our ancestors learned how to process grains.

Before we started relying on agriculture (that's the 10.000 years point I mentioned), our ancestors used to eat grains, but in a different way, most likely fermented or 'boiled' in gourds with whatever meat and vegetables they had available.

I agree with you that the third theory could be the main reason we may have an increase of gluten sensitivity, as it was only a century ago when we stopped fermenting grains for days and we sped up the process by adding certain chemicals.

I say 'could be' because we cannot deny we are seeing an increase of allergies, and that's probably due to us growing up in 'sterile' environments, meaning our bodies will start overreacting when they shouldn't, for example when eating gluten (or peanuts), or breathing polen, etc.

So I personally go with a mixture of factors: better education on the disease and diagnosis, still adapting to eating grains, not having adapted to industrial flour/bread and bodies no longer having to fend off bugs and infections due to our clean environments. However, most of us can eat gluten without any problems and generally do not have allergies.

Thanks for the replies!

I did use to eat organic grains, and sprouted wheat, wheat berries, and used to bake my own bread. I ate quite clean before this, Im now at the point where trace amounts make me very sick. The celiac rash is taking ages to go away, and I'm allergic to the meds to fix it. Its unbareably itchy.

I wouldn't dare risk trying any gluten again at this point.

I do not get how I could develop this in my late 30s!

Heck as gross as fecal transplants sound, I would love to be well again.

My appetite is very low, and yup, at least im skinnier.

I wonder if its part of a conspiracy to reduce the population. Or just big corps like Monsanto not caring their tinkering with the genome of plants produces health problems. There is no way the explosion in gluten tolerence is natural.

Find the doco "What's with Wheat". They give some great scientific information about how the gut becomes compromised from intake of glyphosate and it's effect in the body. The celiac/gluten-sensitivity is the reaction to the compromise.

a reply to: Wulfrida

I stopped wondering about governed populations a while back and pretty much trust it to be the case at this point in time. There's just no way possible to stop the industrialization of feeding people, and the bulk of eating consumers don't care to know or learn what it is they may be ingesting.

www.ted.com...

Either humans learn to go back to basics, or humans suffer the consequences of what the over stretch of legislation serves as consequence for ignoring the sourcing of the foods/water we ingest. We are what we eat is such a popular statement for a reason... because it's true.

I know it's off subject, but vaccines being used to the extent we see are altering generational RNA/DNA restructuring to additionally cause internal molecular confusion to what our ancestors experienced. Its sadly just a matter of time before there are vaccines for peanut and gluten allergies. Or, look at the flu shot hot trend of the mid 20-teens... be sure to stop by the place that offers 10% off your entire store purchase if you get a free flu shot.

www.palmbeachpost.com...

Eating and the food, Americans especially, eat on a daily basis is one of the saddest things to watch as I navigate the American terrains daily. People are just too busy leaving a trail of trash for Mother Nature to be asked to accommodate the abuse of her lands, water, and atmosphere sensibly. Either we put the Earth back into a healthier state than when we found it, or Mother Nature will do it for us. We are what we eat... plain and simple.

originally posted by: TXRabbit
Find the doco "What's with Wheat". They give some great scientific information about how the gut becomes compromised from intake of glyphosate and it's effect in the body. The celiac/gluten-sensitivity is the reaction to the compromise.

Glyphosate was not used in the 1800s when Celiac Disease was first recognized so we can discard it as a cause.

originally posted by: ttobban
We are what we eat... plain and simple.

And yet less than 1% of the population are truly intolerant of gluten. If it was as simple as eating modern food, then the majority of people would have a gluten intolerance.

I know it's off subject, but vaccines being used to the extent we see are altering generational RNA/DNA restructuring to additionally cause internal molecular confusion to what our ancestors experienced.

Yes, completely off topic, but please explain the pathophysiology of vaccines and how they manage to alter DNA. Can't wait.

a reply to: Agartha

But the rate of celiac disease was far lower then. Surely it's possible there are natural celiacs, and induced ones, hence the rise of cases, and people developing it later in life.

Dna vaccines are out there.

www.who.int...

www.independenceday.pro...

Genetically modified humans. What could go wrong?

I believe we are being injured by the very food we eat. I canf afford to buy organic non gmo. I have kids to feed.

originally posted by: Wulfrida
a reply to: Agartha

But the rate of celiac disease was far lower then. Surely it's possible there are natural celiacs, and induced ones, hence the rise of cases, and people developing it later in life.

Sorry but no, there is no such thing as 'natural' and 'induced' celiacs as you have to carry at least one of the two genes associated with the disease for it to be triggered at some point. Approximately 40% of people carry at least one of the genes, and yet the disease is only triggered in less than 1%.

Dna vaccines are out there.

But only in theory and research. No DNA vaccine has ever been approved nor tried on humans.

a reply to: Agartha

Without dragging debate off topic unfairly, I will let the base premise for my opinions be known instead. The premise fits both dieting and vaccines alike.

Let's start with the correlation that ancient humans were not served 3 solid square meals a day. Nope, much like we see raptors of today, the hunt and meal needed to be acted upon. This results in realities that did not equate to a steady meal plan each and every day. My health, weight, and diet is primarily kept in check by intermittent fasting. I only eat once a day... primarily because the foods I am exposed to are more tainted then in times back, and I am fine with bulking up on micro-greens that are grown in a week's time on my counter... I am decades past the point of being a growing human that needs to drink tall glasses of milk. Once HGH production starts to slow in our adult years, the need for 3 meals a day starts to reduce as well.



My words may or may not sway your opinions towards the percentages of people that are gluten intolerant, and I am not claiming to be the end all/be all answer to the science specifics of making something that is natural thrive in an unnatural environment here. What I am saying is, that it seems stupid to ignore the increase of digestive/neurological disorders in humans, and cling to what humans are doing to ourselves unnaturally in these times to not have a direct affect on what we see as an increase in disorders. Look at diabetes... the body eventually says 'fine, you want to handle insulin production through diet, then I am going to retire... do it yourself.' Look at bees... the bees are retiring because agriculture told bees, 'don't worry bees, you're trying but not doing a good enough of a job... we'll let the pesticides have control of your job now.' See, I simply trust a natural base and history more than I would offer any trust to the need for GMO's, pesticides, and vaccines to live a healthy life. It makes me sad to see people as a whole cling to need what another business/entity tells them what's good for them and their family.

Ok, now let's fast forward a bit in time... to the colonial times of food industrialization. Where people, families, and areas of the globe developed the paths of which they allowed industry and commerce to feed the masses. What occurred was a slow shift in the way future generations adapted to the new style of eating. There were areas of the globe that started to consume excessive amounts of sugar, for instance, and the newfound pleasures in chosen diet passed the genes onto their offspring... to be able to more efficiently be able to process an abundance of sugar. The appendix of the human body is a perfect example of what I mean... where the human body adapts to what is ingested.

health.howstuffworks.com...

Now, we are in the comical times of the mid 20-teens. It's all to funny (the sad kind of funny) to watch people and science look to strive for the specifics of something like obesity. While the bulk of consumers look to science to answer the poor current choices, I see obesity to be nothing more than humans living out the genes that were passed to them. Yes, a majority of people that are overweight, are overweight 1st and foremost because their ancestors did not process the same kind of high carbohydrate diet that is currently consumed... the current dieting choices of a mere secondary consequence at best.

It's the very reason why me being allergic to nothing will likely pass the same gene onto my offspring. And, the same reason that someone that is allergic to pet dander or pollen will more likely have a child with the same allergies.

For people to think that these kind of correlations don't stretch into the vaccine sector is a premature and poor thought process and decision making if I am left to be judge of it all. I do realize my point is not going to change and that comes with a lack of care for what others choose as well... I'm just sharing thought and opinion. I am used to non conformity, so I'm settled with the increased probability that I see flu vaccines as a way to suppress the future human immune system while the masses view them as something that gets them a self serving extension to this life time... or maybe the thwarting of getting sick for a few days in an uncomfortable fashion.

At some point in time a generation is going to have to put off their own comforts and luxuries in life to benefit the generations after our time on Earth has passed. Whether it be a political ideology, a religious ideology, an educational policy, a drug policy, a vaccine mandate, etc..., the human beings that live in current times don't act as if they care about future generations. What we eat and teach our children's dieting habits is of the most basic of educations of which we owe children, yet it's disposed of so family's can save a few minutes of precious tweet time.

The RNA/DNA aspects is the passing of genes (software) to our offspring. If diet, environment, and even emotions can have a proving physical affect, it's almost mathematically impossible to fathom that we provide minute changes to our DNA as we live and ingest molecules into our body's yet don't pass those changes onto the DNA that our offspring receives as a primary software base to live on.

I would never ask people to support my views or even offer care for their differences to public opinion as well. I am kind of on board with the concepts that we are over populated anyway, and Mother Nature is is times of payback. Please, keep on vaccine dosing and clinging to an industrial food chain... they are the churches of the 1800's... a crutch needed to provide a welcomed system of evading what happens naturally just fine on its own. I am simply just sitting back, watching the circus be real when it feels like a science fiction movie, and kind of understand why government and business wishes for people to put their own families at risk... people are lining up at drive thru's and pharmacies in droves.

This current generation is the first in human history to be elevating consciousness at such rapid rates, yet is abusing the vessel of which we were gifted at levels that are almost sub human and primal. Don't even get me started on Aluminum and Flouride ingestion... we can't even figure out that our foods don't need ingredients... THE FOODS WERE THE INGREDIENTS OF FOOD!!!

a reply to: Wulfrida

I believe we are being injured by the very food we eat. I canf afford to buy organic non gmo. I have kids to feed.

All you need is time and a bit of effort. See, that's my point... people are in full admission that we're being injured by the food that's sold to us to keep us alive. And, here we are complaining that we can't afford to feed ourselves properly???



Look, I am smart enough to be able to view my words from the eyes and mind of another, and it usually yields a low support rate for what is viewed as outlandish thoughts and opinions. But, what I am witnessing from a 3rd party standpoint of all people (I DON"T CARE TO BE RIGHT AND THOROUGHLY ENJOY LEARNING AND BEING WRONG), is that people are admittedly stuck in a state of which they know and feel the negative consequences of being sold on the business of food... as a whole. I see people relieving their duties of properly feeding themselves because they have bought into the system. People having a natural immune system without alteration or crutch being needed to offset the imbalance of natural adaptation is going to become an extinct factor of life. At the rate we're on, a human being will not be able to live to their adult years without some sort of treatment to counteract the unnatural of previous generations.

I realize I may seem crazy to some extent, but please understand that I see the ratio of 1 crazy person calling truth to poor dieting choices and beliefs to be more trustworthy than the masses of people that are vaccine full, injected with influenza that was not there previously on the off chance we won't have to feel ill for a bit of time, and eating in ways that is essentially poisoning themselves and their families.

People have to understand, a family is going to cook to feed their family based on health and sustainability. A business is going to cook to make a sale. A business is more than willing to put something in it that improves their profit margins... whether it's good for your health or not. A government is set up to run the economy (business).

Can it start to be seen how this crazy person actually sees the masses as the crazy ones??? How can people be at the point of disease by what was fed to them by another, and complaining that they can't afford to eat naturally. Literally, it costs me $2-4 to grow a pound of my own food. See how these aspects being ignored can lead to unforeseen consequences? If people are having such a hard time figuring out the simple task of eating clean foods, how am I supposed to believe that the thought of what got us to this point isn't affecting our DNA of future generations? Sorry, but discussing DNA influence of diet and vaccines is like trying to discuss trigonometry with a 6 year old from my standpoint.

As ignorant as it may sound I am far removed from the need to feed myself cleanly, I consume distilled water to reduce the ingestion of foreign particles and Flouride, I removed consumption of Aluminum that is found in deodorants, and I feel better than I ever have in this lifetime. My mind and efforts is off to bigger and better challenges and opportunity because I chose a path of my own trekking.

I left the food and vaccine debate in the past, and only hope that I can share words that causes another person to take ownership of their dieting. My words are likely just a futile attempt to get at least one more person on board with the concepts that we are personally responsible for what we ingest... that stands for both food and knowledge. Deny ourselves of our own self generated wealth of it, and consumers become slaves in secretive ways.

Do people really wish for government/business to have a larger persuasion to what humans ingest... a persuasion that requires putting your loved ones and one self to be a serving member to the created society? It's one thing to offer up honor and pride for a country/legislation... it's a complete failure or care and responsibility to allow those entities to decide the fate of our internal body and DNA structuring and allow for them to alter our natural state of life.

a reply to: ttobban

I would like nothing better than to grow my own food, but a few big medical bills (husband had a stroke), and we are reduced to living in a situation where growing food isnt an option.

I totally agree. My dream is to have a small holding and feed my family food ive safely grown. Im not overweight, by the way, just really unwell.

Thank you for the time and effort you put into your reply.

a reply to: Wulfrida


A few years back I went on a paleo diet, cut out all grains (and by extension) gluten.

About two months in for a treat I had some black pudding with my breakfast and it gave me stomach ache, joint pain and a bunch of other stuff that lasted two days. Just because there was a bit of gluten in it.

I think most of us are intolerant to one degree or another, but when your system gets a clean up, then it really hits you.

originally posted by: Wulfrida
I was diagnosed with celiac disease a few years ago. Previously had no autoimmune issues or allergies. I can eat non gluten fiber just fine. My endoscopy/ biopsy showed damage. Im now very sensitive to trace amounts and have pretty bad symptoms if glutened.

Ive read.about various theories that roundup used in genetically engineered crops has something to do with it.

Anyone have any theories?

My personal theory on it....everything meat is raised with antibiotics that are passed on to the consumer. These kill the natural digestive bacteria that should be there to help with digestive issues.

I thought I had gluten intolerance for a while. I started taking a heavy probiotic and I have no issues anymore.

I believe it is due to the chemicals everything is grown with and the antibiotics our meat is raised with. If we are ingesting antibiotics consistently then naturally we won't process anything the same as the good bacteria in out digestive system will be imbalanced or nonexistent.

Think about it...its in our milk, cheese, anything dairy or meat related these days....antibiotics are constantly being ingested. This is why there are antibiotic resistant bacteria out there....

originally posted by: ttobban
What I am saying is, that it seems stupid to ignore the increase of digestive/neurological disorders in humans, and cling to what humans are doing to ourselves unnaturally in these times to not have a direct affect on what we see as an increase in disorders.

Nobody is ignoring it and certainly not me. There is a rise in neurological and digestive diseases, nobody is denying that, but the answer is not as simple as you put it, as it's a combination of environmental and social changes. For example, the rise in neurological diseases in women in the past decade is not caused by women only eating fast food, but by an interaction of all the changes we have seen in our lives in the past couple of decades: petro-chemical pollution, changes in sleeping patterns, non-iodizing radiation, chemical additives etc etc. Everything points to dramatic and fast societal and environmental changes, the fall in male sperm counts, for example.

However, Celiac disease is not a modern disease as it was identified 150+ years ago.

I do agree with some of what you are saying as there have been an increase in digestive diseases in Asian countries such as Japan, Korea and China, the most common one being Ulcerative Cholitis. Researchers are pointing out that people in those countries have abandoned their traditional seasonal/fresh product cooking, and there has been an increased consumption of fast food, sugars and fats. So yes, some of what you are saying about food (real food) is true and I totally agree. But, despite the changes in diet in the Asian countries I mentioned and the rise of gastrointestinal problems, there have been no increase in Celiac disease (I keep referring to it as it is the OP).

I see obesity to be nothing more than humans living out the genes that were passed to them. Yes, a majority of people that are overweight, are overweight 1st and foremost because their ancestors did not process the same kind of high carbohydrate diet that is currently consumed... the current dieting choices of a mere secondary consequence at best.

No, that's the easy way out: people are obese because they eat too much and they move little. Take any obese people and make them live in a poor country where they have to work 16 hours a day and still starve, and you'll see how they will loose weight, regardless of their genes.

For people to think that these kind of correlations don't stretch into the vaccine sector is a premature and poor thought process and decision making if I am left to be judge of it all. I see flu vaccines as a way to suppress the future human immune system

Poor thought process is not understanding how vaccines work, if you did you wouldn't say they suppress (or will) the human immune system. As it is quite the opposite in fact. But hey, I'm not here to judge anybody, I leave that to the simple minded.

Sorry, but discussing DNA influence of diet and vaccines is like trying to discuss trigonometry with a 6 year old from my standpoint.

And yet you are not explaining anything really, because to really explain how vaccines affect DNA you have to show us the pathophysiology of the process, which you are not. You just rant for pages on end, repeating the same things but not giving us an actual scientific explanation. You may be able to convince those who have not studied biology indepth, but not those who actually understand human physiology. But please, I will be the first one to admit I am wrong if you show me a real explanation, not a rant or opinion.

a reply to: Agartha

I mean, I said I am not the end all/be all opinion to dieting and vaccines... I merely share my thoughts and opinions, and it gets left at that. I'm doing the same thing you're saying and doing... I am speculating, with my thoughts and opinions used as an analyzation tool, to formulate a preferred method of my choosing. If you tell me that I may be able to sway opinion of others with my words, but lack in providing words that you personally need to feel comfortable with making a choice on the matter... well, I read that as nothing more than a time to say, "I am right and you are wrong." I pretty much already stated, I don't need to be punched over the head or made to be diseased to trust that I am in a better situation by thinking for myself... much better than I ever would be by trusting another source to have a higher worth and meaning for my internal body. If you're looking for the Albert Einstein of vaccines to be hidden in an ATS forum, then I am already questioning the base of questioning... it's a bad place to find the answers you're looking for... this is a forum of opinion... just like all verbal and wordage transactions are. Math is the only true language.

I also feel your overweight points are moot, and are not absorbing the full concept of what I mean I guess... I don't know, sorry. People can eat the same exact poor diet, yet some people easily put on weight from it while another person can not be phased at all by the same exact meal. Haven't you ever heard someone say, "that person can eat whatever they want, and it goes straight to my hips if I eat it... it's not fair?' Of course the diet, metabolism, and other factors have influence on that... but first and foremost, one's hereditary genes of influence are used as a platform to process molecules in the body.

As far as vaccines go, I relate them to be as untrustworthy and equal to or as harmful as the foods people eat are. I really don't care to be sold on what science thinks... science is not always a good faction of life to lean on, and I prefer the natural human to one that needs synthetics to more comfortably to extend life a little extra in time... that's all. I don't trust vaccines, the laws made around vaccines, or even the people who support vaccines at this point in time. It's not a blow to vaccines as a whole, because I do understand their worth and good place in society... especially as we pull further and further away from natural. Shoot me for my unwillingness to not buy into the 'herd immunity' logic I guess... I'd just prefer they swoop into areas that have outbreaks with a focus of specifics, then move onto the next outbreak. Having a large blanket program, where the consequences are severely under valued in comparison to the values, where all humans need a synthetic adjustment to adapt to a natural environment is pretty much like an IRS system for the human immune system.

But, let me repeat this a 3rd time or more... I don't claim to be the end all/be all answer to these things. My points remain at the door of not trusting the host enough to want to eat what's offered up as beneficial to my health. Either we want to raise ourselves off of miracle-gro or we take responsibility of our internal property and actually apply work to feed ourselves. With the lack of trust for the offered hands of food, I choose myself and trust in the life I choose.

I've grown plants both synthetically and organically. I've experimented with feeding the same copy of plant either a synthetic or organic substrate. At different points of the life cycle, I stopped watering the plants to study the plants immune system so to speak. Without failure, every single time, the plant that was fed a synthetic diet was unable to live within the same environment as the same organic plant was living... and usually only lasted for half the time that the organic plant lived to. So, why would I concern myself with what scientists can or can't prove about food or vaccines? I see that to be climbing up the pyramid a bit, while ignoring the cracks in the foundation is all... I prefer a stable base to a fancy cap stone is all.

Sorry, I know you love my long pixeled responses. I agree, they can be redundant. They're redundant because they are very simple to follow and don't need the CDC, laws, proof of research, or mandates to stay on base principle. Now that I am comfy in my seat, I sit and watch the circus with non GMO popcorn and a smile.