I've realised something about US gun control, and I'd like to share it....

Good afternoon ATS.

I have recently reached a conclusion, and I'd like to share my experience with others, to try to stop some of the ongoing debates....

I recently realized that the UK and US's views on gun control are so diametrically opposed, that arguing/debating about said gun controls is fruitless.... It took me 20 years to get to this point... I've spent that last 20 years attempting to point out where the Americans are going wrong, in my opinion, and I've reached this conclusion:-


Americans believe that a society with more guns is a safer society, the more guns the better.

Most other countries, (including the UK and Australia), believe that a society with less guns is safer, seems like common sense...


Unfortunately no headway will ever be made in this debate due to this reason....

So let's extend it to its ridiculous extents.... If no-one had guns, think how hard it would be to get hold of one? Would this result in less shootings or more? Think about it....

If everyone had say, 30 guns, imagine how many more accidents there would be? How would this affect the number of shootings that happen?

I'd be interested to hear all views and opinions on this matter....

PA

a reply to: PerfectAnomoly

If we made drugs illegal would I still be able to get them at any middle school? Oh wait......that's exactly how it is already.

If everyone had say, 30 guns, imagine how many more accidents there would be?

I have about half that and I haven't shot anybody. Maybe if I get a few more....

Just about everyone has a vehicle should we take them away so crazies cant use them to mow people down? What about pressure cookers? They were used in the Boston bombing. We should ban pressure cookers.

Unfortunately no headway will ever be made in this debate due to this reason....

So why make a thread asking us rhetorical questions about something you know we wont ever agree on?

a reply to: PerfectAnomoly

My point of view (US citizen and gun owner) is that not knowing who may or may not have a gun acts as a deterrent.
It's also my position that taking away or limiting gun ownership from law abiding citizens will in no way prevent criminals from obtaining guns. They get then now, and to assume purchase or ownership restrictions would hamper them in the future is just being naive.

It's also difficult to compare the US to other countries due to the huge population differences. It's not as simple as scaling up another countries population proportionately to compare them.

Sure, everyone having 30 guns MAY create more accidents, but in reality, most people wouldn't be carrying or using more than 1 at a time.

There might be fewer gun deaths, especially suicides but we would see more vehicle attacks. And we would be helpless to stop them. That was a fun exercise, now let's imagine if every eligible citizen was required to carry a firearm and attend safety classes.

I said this last night and will say it again.

My question is ''why?''. Why debate the gun issue. Why not a discussion. The gun debate will solve nothing as either side of that debate is intractable. It has been debated, and argued TO DEATH.. That ''debate' is over and done. It has rung down the curtain and joined the choir in-visa-bule. This,,, is a dead,,,,debate.

To be be a debate, both sides must present their points with agreed upon parameters and contexts. To be a debate, either side or an agreed upon third party must have the capacity and knowledge of those parameters and contexts to
acknowledge the superior presentation.

We have none of that here. Not just this thread, but all of ATS. All we have is a forum for argument or discussion.
And that is our choice. Do we argue it or discuss it.

I think this is pretty much in agreement with your OP.

Arguing it is easy.

a reply to: PerfectAnomoly

If all citizenry guns are outlawed, what will happen when knife attacks go on the rise? Start outlawing knifes?

Forcing the citizenry to give up guns doesn't mean the bad guys still can't get guns. After all, bad guys don't follow the law in the first place.

a reply to: PerfectAnomoly

The "what if there were no guns" scenario is moot. There are guns,so that cat is outta the bag.

As for the 30 guns scenario causing more mistakes, I personally think that's silly. The majority of us with "lots-O-guns", are collectors, hunters and sport shooters and have zero desire to use our firearms in an illegal manner.

Most everyone I know has multiple firearms and have never mistakenly shot anyone. Ever. The very vast majority of lawful firearm owners are not and never have been a problem. The media saying we are doesn't make it true. Seriously, if the 300+ million firearms in this Country were a serious threat or problem, you'd know it!

originally posted by: Templeton
There might be fewer gun deaths, especially suicides but we would see more vehicle attacks. And we would be helpless to stop them. That was a fun exercise, now let's imagine if every eligible citizen was required to carry a firearm and attend safety classes.

And people who still want to inflict mass damage would use a vehicle because they know everyone has a gun.
What are you going to do with your 9mm hand gun in your pants against a van going 60mph through a crowed of people?

I understand the logic, but it's not as black and white as you make it out to be. If everyone had a weapon, then someone will just think of some other way to NOT get shot. Example, what happened in Vegas, or yes vehicle attacks.

a reply to: PerfectAnomoly

Having guns are not the problem. Job security, poverty wages, meaningful work, healthcare security, and retirement security are much bigger problem in causing issues in American society. People are stressed out. People who are desperate will continue to "just snap" as a response to too much stress.

I think there is somekind of psychological abnormality with Americas fascination with guns, big trucks and cowboy hats.

It might be some sort of penal oedipal complex manifesting itself in ......

Cathexis: the investment of libido in objects. An example would be Freud's enormous cathexis of interest around sexuality. Cathexes correspond to ideas, whereas affects are discharge products.

A truey fascinating subject and btw I have a big pistol!!

originally posted by: strongfp

originally posted by: Templeton
There might be fewer gun deaths, especially suicides but we would see more vehicle attacks. And we would be helpless to stop them. That was a fun exercise, now let's imagine if every eligible citizen was required to carry a firearm and attend safety classes.

And people who still want to inflict mass damage would use a vehicle because they know everyone has a gun.
What are you going to do with your 9mm hand gun in your pants against a van going 60mph through a crowed of people?

I understand the logic, but it's not as black and white as you make it out to be. If everyone had a weapon, then someone will just think of some other way to NOT get shot. Example, what happened in Vegas, or yes vehicle attacks.

I might not be able to do much, though I would much prefer the scenario where I have a gun. But while I might not be able to do much, maybe me and the dozen other armed citizens next to me could.

a reply to: PerfectAnomoly

Guns aren't the problem, it's today's society. Forty years ago I could walk into the gun dept at K-Mart and buy as many guns as I could want. There were just as many guns but there weren't any massacres then. So what has changed?

a reply to: PerfectAnomoly

If you can tell me that removing guns also removed murder, I'd be 100% on board with you. unfortunately, that's not the case. But, I will fully admit that mass murders in the US is a bigger issue than any other country that I know of. Is it because we have more guns? I honestly don't think so. Before the gun ever enters the equation, there is the person who is willing to not only die, but willing and wanting to take others with him. THAT is the real problem. We have people who are willing to take the lives of others for "X" reason. That is what needs to be addressed. That is what needs to be understood.

Mass murders with guns happen in places like France, where gun control is very, very strict. So it seems the gun laws don't deter the crime, just make it so those who follow the law have less rights. And if you are good with that, super.

But we need to figure out why the US has such a high rate of these killers. It's obviously the culture or glorification of the shooter. And the underlying issue of why that person was wanting to take the life of others.

How did gun control help the victims of the 2015 Paris attack where over 130 were killed? We are coming up in the 2nd anniversary.

I recently realized that the UK and US's views on gun control are so diametrically opposed

That's because some Americans actually opened up a history book and learned a thing or two from the Revolutionary War.

King George banned, and confiscated arms from the colonials.

Our ancestors didn't like that too kindly.

So they preserved the RIGHT in a piece of paper the modern day King George wannabes are ignoring the hell out of.

It's our right to own guns. You don't have that right and never will, that's why we fight to keep our rights so that we aren't disarmed sheep like Europe is.

If no-one had guns, think how hard it would be to get hold of one? Would this result in less shootings or more?

Except most of us live in the real world, where guns exist and people can get them.

But you're right. If there were no cigarettes, people wouldn't die from smoking related illnesses. If there were no drugs, people wouldn't overdose. If there were no automobiles, people wouldn't get run over.

Yay for fantasy land!

originally posted by: PerfectAnomoly Americans believe that a society with more guns is a safer society, the more guns the better.

and history disproves this.

If everyone had say, 30 guns, imagine how many more accidents there would be? How would this affect the number of shootings that happen?

Can only use one gun at a time.

Maybe the price of ammo needs to go up?

a reply to: PerfectAnomoly


imagine how many more Law Abiding People would be Shot Dead if Only Criminals had Guns . The Right to Self Preservation Supercedes any Law made by Man .