Court rejects Trump's transgender troop ban

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

The need for safe spaces is disturbing.

Equally disturbing is the need to be kept separate from somebody who's doing something you don't like yet has little to no impact on you. Which is pretty much the same thing as a safe space.

I agree with you that the military needs to be filled with the "hardest" people that can be found. Where we disagree is that it needs to only be men. I don't particularly care how "hard" the veterinarian, refrigeration technician, instrument repair specialist, or any number of other job fields, is. Nor do I care if it's a male, female, or trans person of either variety. If they can pass the standards, they can pass the standards.

The problem is when the standards get lowered, but that's a whole other ball of wax that isn't germane.

originally posted by: craterman
Trump is the commander and chief, he is above the generals and the judicial has no role to play whatsoever.

Someone needs to take a remedial intro to government class.

a reply to: Shamrock6

You're onto something.

You surely are aware...that standards are in fact being lowered...in order to fill the PC quota. For instance, I would laugh in anyone's face who says that a women can meet the same standard as men in combat readiness, speed, agility, and not to even mention strength...which is...essential in real live warfare.

That's not to say that women cant perform other non combat duties. But I never understood this issue to be tied to all military genders, but combat ones. I might be mistaken on that one.

I would certainly not mind if a woman was doing intel gathering or the like.

As for transgenders...that's just a circus. I would not support "confused" individuals be put in such environments...I fail to see how it serves them any good or how it serves the military any good. All I see is potential problems. Hard straight men...who are the majority of the military population...often have issues in such situations, or mixed feelings about it...like frankly...I have (though I'm not that hard...or that straight).

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

I can only speak to the branch I was in, not the others. And my branch has, so far, not lowered standards for anybody. Even in the face of a lot of heat because women keep washing out of infantry programs.

Which is why my attitude towards it all is that if you can pass the standard, that's it. I don't really care if you're gay, straight, trans, purple, black, rainbow colored, etc.

If I'm downed in a doorway, I don't particularly care if the individual coming to get me is running in the most manliest of manners or if they're prancing along in the most effeminate way possible, as long as they get there and get me out.

a reply to: Shamrock6

If I'm downed in a doorway, I don't particularly care if the individual coming to get me is running in the most manliest of manners or if they're prancing along in the most effeminate way possible, as long as they get there and get me out.

Fair enough...but that point would still be valid if you "insert your worse enemy" came to your rescue.

I'm not sure if it addresses the issue. You're a long way from getting to that position to needing to be rescued.

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

but that point would still be valid if you "insert your worse enemy" came to your rescue.

Is "my worse enemy" combat effective? Then yea, I don't really care if it's him or my bestest buddy ever. Because that's what the litmus test should be: are you combat effective or not? It shouldn't be about who you care to sleep with, because who you sleep with has no bearing on me.

I'm not sure if it addresses the issue.

It does, for the reason I just said. I care infinitely more about ability to perform in combat than whether you (the non-specific "you") like to wear women's clothing after the duty day and bang dudes.

a reply to: Shamrock6

It does, for the reason I just said. I care infinitely more about ability to perform in combat than whether you (the non-specific "you") like to wear women's clothing after the duty day and bang dudes.

but that's just it...you first need to go through training when you enlist, right ? sharing bunk beds and stuff...showers...and the works.

Are you saying that this environment is healthy for either ? put a declared gay guy in training with majority straight males...in military...?

I dont know man...I guess it's just me. Feels like asking for trouble.

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

I think you misunderstand my point, or at least part of it. On a personal level, I don't care what somebody's orientation or gender is. That's not the same as saying there's no logistical issues to address with it.

Are you saying that this environment is healthy for either ? put a declared gay guy in training with majority straight males...in military...?

People seem to forget that there are gay and trans members serving right now, as we speak. And that they've been serving for years and years. The military didn't implode after DADT was repealed.

So yes, there are logistical issues that need to be worked out. They're certainly not the insurmountable obstacles that Trump tried to portray them as.

a reply to: Shamrock6

People seem to forget that there are gay and trans members serving right now, as we speak. And that they've been serving for years and years. The military didn't implode after DADT was repealed.

are they openly declared as such...or is it anonymous ?

Whatever the case...I wonder how they experienced it.

I think you misunderstand my point, or at least part of it. On a personal level, I don't care what somebody's orientation or gender is. That's not the same as saying there's no logistical issues to address with it.

and my point was about minimizing potential for conflict, frustration....because in the end...there is no upside for the military here. Only upside for gender identity politics.

originally posted by: MarioOnTheFly
a reply to: Shamrock6

It does, for the reason I just said. I care infinitely more about ability to perform in combat than whether you (the non-specific "you") like to wear women's clothing after the duty day and bang dudes.

but that's just it...you first need to go through training when you enlist, right ? sharing bunk beds and stuff...showers...and the works.

Are you saying that this environment is healthy for either ? put a declared gay guy in training with majority straight males...in military...?

I dont know man...I guess it's just me. Feels like asking for trouble.

Sounds like homophobic reasoning to me!! SMH

The problem is no one wants to confront the real problems with Transgender people openly enlisting in the military. You touched on some of the social issues which are a huge piece of the cake that no one seems to want to discuss. If you approach the subject at all you're a homophobe or bigot or whatever.

I used a term but left it vague but direct about Transgender people on the front line and you see how crazy people went here attacking me because I didn't fall in line with their beliefs. And I only lightly poked at the subject. Imagine what fellow soldiers are going to say to Transgender soldiers. Imagine how some of the not bright boys or girls from the back woods who have never seen a gay person no less Transgender are going to react. Do you think they would be as polite and vague as I was in poking at a touchy subject. I don't think so.

Shamrock talks about combat readiness but fails to take into account troop morale and trust among each other. Do you really think the common testosterone driven infantrymen is going to openly accept a Transgender? Hell hang out with any grunt or common soldiers and their buddies and you will hear some real homophobic comments. Stuff so crude and insulting it would make some here heads explode. And these are comments between friends about friends. Imagine a single Transgender person in a group of 50 guys all basically of the same mind set.

And that is just ONE example of the social aspect of this. What about a Transgender in the process of making their physical sexual change? Some talk about the readiness of the soldiers and their combat ability but fail to take into considerations of the weeks and months of rehab associated with those type of surgeries....And those are the what they consider "successful" operations.

Most aren't "successful" and those people are left with a lifetime of complications...How would that person be "combat ready or able"?

A real discussion most aren't willing to have. They just get their feelings hurt cause you don't agree with them and call you a homophobe or what ever insult is PC..

a reply to: GuidedKill

Transgenders throughout the military swear up and down that they feel a higher level of camaraderie, understanding, and trust for who they are among fellow soldiers than they do when they go home to civilian life. Something that has been proven since time immemorial is that war and soldier life breaks down all imaginary human barriers that fuel hatred and intolerance. Something about having to have the person next to you watch your back under fire makes all that petty bull# fall away.

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

I'm not in the service any more so I don't know how many keep it to themselves and how many are open about it. There's any number of pictures of same-sex couples kissing while one is in uniform, so I would presume at least some of them are open about it.

and my point was about minimizing potential for conflict, frustration....because in the end...there is no upside for the military here. Only upside for gender identity politics.

It's the military. People fight over football games and cans of dip. Banning gays from serving isn't going to minimize conflict. And, again, there's been thousands of "them" serving at any given time for many years at this point. The only upside to kicking them all out now would be the upside for people that don't like gays. The gender identity argument doesn't really work if one keeps in mind that gays have been serving all along.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: GuidedKill

Transgenders throughout the military swear up and down that they feel a higher level of camaraderie, understanding, and trust for who they are among fellow soldiers than they do when they go home to civilian life. Something that has been proven since time immemorial is that war and soldier life breaks down all imaginary human barriers that fuel hatred and intolerance. Something about having to have the person next to you watch your back under fire makes all that petty bull# fall away.

While I don't deny camaraderie amongst soldiers returning from war and trusting their fellow soldiers more than civilians. That is real.


The rest just seems like a talking point to me. Perfect fit for the agenda...Trans soldiers love the military and the soldiers love Trans!

Sorry I don't believe your statement. You can attempt to paint that picture for someone else.

a reply to: GuidedKill

Where did I say that trans people love the military? I just said that they feel more acceptance for who they are among their soldier peers than they do when among civilians. What is it with you and inventing more to my argument than I say?

Transgenders throughout the military swear up and down that they feel a higher level of camaraderie, understanding, and trust for who they are among fellow soldiers than they do when they go home to civilian life. Something that has been proven since time immemorial is that war and soldier life breaks down all imaginary human barriers that fuel hatred and intolerance. Something about having to have the person next to you watch your back under fire makes all that petty bull# fall away.

While I am not a Trump guy, and I think he is an awful President, I don't have an issue with banning transgenders in the military. As for the above, the Army isn't a vehicle for transgender people to feel understanding, trust, or anything else. The military is for service to your country. There is more respect for each other in the military, but that doesn't mean that a non transgender military person will understand a transgender person any better than their civilian counterpart. And there will be awkwardness, and a level of discomfort for quite a few military personal towards their transgender counterparts.

And in the military, where at the end of the day -everyone- is a fighting soldier first, you don't want people to be uncomfortable with their foxhole buddy. And I don't think the military should in any way pay for a lifestyle choice. I.E. you and me and all other citizens are paying for someone's decision that they really don't want to be a boy any longer. Not ok with that.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Where did I say that trans people love the military?

You didn't, but it's become a recurring theme at this point.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: GuidedKill

Where did I say that trans people love the military? I just said that they feel more acceptance for who they are among their soldier peers than they do when among civilians. What is it with you and inventing more to my argument than I say?

Ok I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Can you source by full name an openly Transgender person who was open and Trans while they served in the military with documents to back up their service and witnesses who served with them stating they were completely accepted and there was no friction about them being trans while serving.

If you can do that then maybe I could agree you weren't trying to paint perfect picture to fit your agenda. If you can't what else did you mean by your statement? Other than to paint a picture for us all. .

I can easily say it is well known that soldiers have beat, harassed, sexually assaulted and even killed openly gay and Trans members of the military. Only difference about what I said and you said is I can link dozens of articles showing where what I said happened actually happened....Can you?

a reply to: GuidedKill

Here's a few sources on the subject.
This Military Times source says that 41% of service members disapprove of the transgender policy and only 12% approve but the majority of the service members are ambivalent about it. Source

Here's a study that notes that as much as 30% of the m-t-f trans people join the military:
Study

A collection of anecdotes from trans soldiers serving in the military. Stories

Things aren't perfect in the military, but you really need to stop talking about what you don't understand. You've already demonstrated in this very thread that you don't fully understand how the military acts or thinks.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: GuidedKill

Here's a few sources on the subject.
This Military Times source says that 41% of service members disapprove of the transgender policy and only 12% approve but the majority of the service members are ambivalent about it. Source

Here's a study that notes that as much as 30% of the m-t-f trans people join the military:
Study

A collection of anecdotes from trans soldiers serving in the military. Stories

Things aren't perfect in the military, but you really need to stop talking about what you don't understand. You've already demonstrated in this very thread that you don't fully understand how the military acts or thinks.

So you aren't able to list what I asked....I'll take it as you were painting a nice sweet harmonious picture for us all to gobble up!!

I don't care about a study done from people in a think tank which is exactly what you listed. Or some guess that 30% or something like that join the military...

I'm talking about real world day to day soldiers. You choose to ignore everything I mentioned and just posted to fairy tale Trans and the military are happy together. And then failed to list anything stating that is factual. Hell even the left leaning time link you posted only had one story where one person said they felt accepted. And even then it gives no back ground and only gives the Transgender persons opinion. And it's total left leaning hit piece against Trump. Hell most of it are just people who recently came out as Trans because of the current movement.


Nothing hits on the decades these people spent in hiding while in the military. Hiding from their peers, their officers and brass....All out of fear of knowing most people in the military don't agree with their lifestyle. Most would ridicule or taunt them. If you want to have a real discussion address what is really doing to happen in the military. Address how Transgender are generally not accepted by their peers. Be real about it. Hell even your links are fluff pieces.

a reply to: GuidedKill

Real discussion? Lol. You are just looking to argue with people. It's been your mo in this thread since we started talking. You demand sources from me then misrepresent what I was saying (A-#ING-GAIN!). For instance:

Things aren't perfect in the military

You totally ignored that. I know how things were in the past already. I served during the don't ask don't tell days. I know the mean things that were said about even gays then. This isn't then though. This is now and gays and transgenders serve openly.

I'm not talking about the past. I'm talking about how things are getting better and that soldiers that are trans feel better in military life than they do in civilian life. At NO point have I ever suggested that every soldier loves trans people or accepts them though. Clearly you don't know what the word better means. But then again you only want to argue as I pointed out earlier. So what's the point of continuing? I tire of talking to you.