Why the Dossier may be the most serious political scandal the US has ever seen.

There are a lot of troubling allegations about this past election and the period before then. Although no doubt questions of Russian influence are important, I contend that we are seeing a far more serious threat and scandal play out before our very eyes.

That scandal is as follows; If (thats a big if) this dossier that we now know was paid for by Hillarys team was used by the Obama admin to obtain Fisa warrants against Trumps team, it is the biggest political scandal that I can ever recall in the US.

I understand that all sides do opposition research, and that occasionally that can be used for an investigation. But I want to highlight the reasons that I think that this situation is so much more serious, and a very credible threat to our political system.

1. Probably the least important, it proves the hypocrisy of the dems and media (not all) that were hysterical about russian collusion, particularly with the don jr. fiasco. I wont spend too much time on this, but look at what some of these people were saying about don jr, things like anyone trying to use information from russians to undermine their opponent was committing treason, ect. Now all of the sudden they are silent or deflecting.

But again, this is far and away the least impactful thing that makes this different to me.

2. Hillarys team lying about funding it. Still not a catastrophic issue, but this sort of makes the next few issues magnified. Given the importance of the dossier itself and the russian investigation in general, people especially congress, should have been informed of who paid for this material. In fact, Fusion GPS and others refusing to disclose this info (which may be their right) makes this worse.

Why were they hiding this? It seems they knew that paying foreign sources who were getting dirt from russian agents would hurt their narrative, and so they lied. It really calls in to question just how serious these people re about weeding out russian influence.

3. Do to the fact that it relied on Kremlin connected sources, this dossier could have actually been the most direct way for Russia to influence the US. Remember, most investigators admit that less than wanting a particular side to win, Russia just wanted to muck up the whole system and cause problems. All they had to do was give the Hillary team paid steele some salacious material, and low and behold, the government of this country has grinded to a halt, and division is higher than ever.

4. Now we start to get to the huge problems. If this dossier was used to obtain Fisa warrants, it is one of the most corrupt things that I have ever seen in this country.

People mentioned how all sides including Trumps pay groups for opposition research, and how sometimes that can lead to an investigation. I agree with this. But those investigations are at least known to the public. For example, the possible uranium one deal investigation. Everyone knows this is going to happen. Now imagine instead of this being made public, the info was given to trump who then got Fisa warrants, and surveyed his political opponents, without their knowledge. It would be an outrage.

Lets look at all the ways this is disgusting.

First, the dossier has disgusting allegations that have nothing to do with crimes (pee story), was written in a very amateur way, and has parts that can be proven false in a very short period of time (Cohen meeting in Prague). For this then to be used to survey a political opponents campaign for President is insane. The threshold for something like this has to be immensely high, or else every sitting president can utilize the intel community against their opponent.

Next is the fact that as incredibly bad as getting the secret warrants to survey his opponent would be, Obama then went out of his way to make sure this info was shared with as many intel people as possible, which all but assured leaks to the press. A situation like this involving a candidate for President is so serious that it should be kept as tight lipped as possible, but Obama did the opposite.

Obama also told European allies that Trump may have shady connections to the Kremlin, thereby jeopordizing relationships with these countries in the event that Trump won.

All of this is unique and the most authoritarian, election influencing action I have ever heard of.

The precedent has now been set for a sitting Presidents party to pay foreign agents to go to countries that we are rivals or enemies with, get any kind of poorly written or scandalous info from that countries agents about the other parties candidate, then without the other party knowing it, get Fisa warrants to investigate and survey them with the FBI, spread that info far and why and to make sure it gets leaked to the press, and even tell allies about it.

In effect, this makes the FBI a tool for the sitting party to act as its own opposition research team; a team that can violate your rights and arrest you. It is the most Orwellian thing imaginable, and should be rejected in the strongest possible terms, and all of those responsible need to be held accountable.

5. Then there is the matter of the FBI itself. They were going to pay Steele to continue this research, which is unbelievable. Not only was the material Steele gave them scandalous, written poorly, and easily proven wrong in some parts, but they then decide they want more.

Think about this, the FBI has to know given the fact that this info could literally dictate who wins the Presidency, and possibly prove Russia trying to subvert that election, they had to know this is one of the most serious and difficult cases they would deal with. So they hire a foreign agent who was paid for by one of the candidates teams to go to russia and use russian sources to get more dirt? That is outrageous.

But it doesn't stop there. Now the FBI is stonewalling congressional subpoenas to testify as to this situation, and most importantly as to rather the dossier was used to get warrants. Every single American should be livid over this. This reeks of the FBI being a political tool. Not to mention all of the leaks that were coming out of the FBI in the first place.

It seems as if the FBI is basically acting as its own entity that is not accountable to the people. We are talking about one of the most powerful agencies in the world, with the power to look into anyone life at a whim, possibly favoring one political party, and having no accountability to the people whatsoever. This is a nightmare.

Remember when Schumer said the intel community can get back at people that anger them?

And then is just one issue (though a large one) in a bunch of very questionable issues involving the FBI recently.

Do to all of those reasons, I believe that if (and thats a big if) this dossier was used to get fisa warrants, this is the biggest scandal I have ever seen, and the biggest threat to our system that I have ever seen.

People are worried about russia influencing our system (which they have every right to be) but that pales in comparison to how dangerous it would be to have a sitting party weaponize the FBI against political opponents.

a reply to: Grambler

Some people consider the involvment of John McCain as well, any thoughts about that ?

British Involvement In "Trump Dossier" Needs Further Investigation

Michael Sussmann, a lawyer from the same firm that hired Fusion GPS on order of Democrats, hired the Crowdstrike cyber-outlet to investigate the leak of DNC emails. Crowdstrike and the DNC denied the FBI access to the relevant servers but asserted that "Russian hacking" was the source of the leak.

The "Trump dossier" was opposition research ordered up and paid for by the Clinton/DNC mafia. Most of its content was obviously fake or patched together from publicly known facts. But it took up to now for U.S. media to point that out. The fake dossier, paid for by the Democrats, was used by the FBI under Obama to get FISA warrants to spy on Republican party operatives. We noted in January that the dossier was additionally used by the British and American deep state to sabotage Trump's plans for better relations with Russia ...

And it is not just about the DNC or the Clintons :

After the election the Democrats stopped paying for new Steele reports. But by then efforts to make the fake Steele reports public and to thereby sabotage Trump policies turned into high gear. McCain had already been involved in distributing the report and it was he or the Brits who paid for the last fake report Steele delivered ...

The Brits are knee deep involved in the Steele reports. There is the hiring of a (former?) British MI-6 agent to make up the dossier in the first place. Who came up with his name? The dossier was first peddled to McCain by a (former?) British ambassador. The British government green-lighted pushing the report to the FBI.

The last Steele report was not paid for by the DNC. It was delivered to British government and to John McCain. The purpose of this last report was to plant false evidence that Trump paid for "Russian hacking". There is a strong cooperation between U.S. and British intelligence.

Why were the highest levels of the British government involved in the "private investigation" that resulted in the Steele dossier. Did the Brits act on their own initiative or were they cut-outs for U.S. intelligence circles, especially for Obama's consigliere and CIA director John Brennan?

It is time for Congress to dig deeper into the undue British influence in this whole affair.

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

It is clear that whoever funded this research did so because they were a political advesary to Trump.

Rather it was Hillarys team or another politicians, everything I discussed above would still apply.

If it was Mccain, or whoever the republican who started this, they too should be held accountable. Thos I would contest that the person who should be held most accountable is Obama, because its his adminstartion the used the FBI as a weapon against his opponent.

I do find it interesting though because this proves just how much the establishment on both sides hated Trump.

Correct me if I'm wrong though, this revelation doesn't demonstrate the contents of the dossier are false, simply who paid for the research to be conducted?


And we always knew that somebody paid for the research to be conducted, and it always seemed a reasonable bet it would be a political opponent of Trump?

You make good points but I think the dossier is only part of the story.

The broader story, - which includes not only Clinton/DNC/Podesta/UraniumOne but also Manafort/Bannon/Kushner/Wikileaks/Cambridge Analytica - is one of wide scale success by the Russians to not only influence our 2016 election but also to subvert our institutions and destabize the U.S. in general. It's working.

BTW:

www.dailymail.co.uk...

originally posted by: Painterz
Correct me if I'm wrong though, this revelation doesn't demonstrate the contents of the dossier are false, simply who paid for the research to be conducted?


And we always knew that somebody paid for the research to be conducted, and it always seemed a reasonable bet it would be a political opponent of Trump?

Even if every single allegation in the dossier were true, it is so much less concerning than allowing a sitting president to have his party pay foreign agents for info that is then used for secret warrants to survey their opponents.

If we allow this, our entire political system is dead.

As for the dossier itself, some of it has been proven to be absolutely wrong like the Cohen meeting.

But now that an investigation is going, by all means it should continue.

Everything in the OP in no way proves Trump or his team are innocent.

a reply to: Grambler

Between the fact that Fusion GPS representatives decided to plead the fifth and, that they are now pushing an Obama apointee judge to block the release of their bank records, I wonder if we will ever get to the bottom of this.

originally posted by: kosmicjack
You make good points but I think the dossier is only part of the story.

The broader story, - which includes not only Clinton/DNC/Podesta/UraniumOne but also Manafort/Bannon/Kushner/Wikileaks/Cambridge Analytica - is one of wide scale success by the Russians to not only influence our 2016 election but also to subvert our institutions and destabize the U.S. in general. It's working.

BTW:

www.dailymail.co.uk...

This is a relevant point. Isnt funny how some of these llayers like Manafort end up working for both sides at points. Russia may be the biggest example, but I think there would be others too, and it shows that the US does need to do a better job weeding out foreign influence.

However, I again believe this is a very small problem when compared to what is outlined in the OP.

Ask yourself, what could do more harm; Russian agents peddling influence even at the highest level of the country, or the President being able to use the FBI to attack their political opponents.

Its not even close to me. Foreign influence can always be fettered out, but allowing this misuse of power by the President is something that can absolutely destroy our system.

a reply to: Grambler

The clear winner in all of this is Putin...with the clear losers being the American people. The more divisive and stratified politics in the USA becomes, the more it suits those who seek to gain by the downfall of this country.

The more we dig, the more we find dirt. Just remember there are no honest politicians, and if you believe what they're telling you...well, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

a reply to: Grambler

RE: Why the Dossier may be the most serious political scandal the US has ever seen.


That was pretty much how I was describing it at the beginning of the breaking thread, before someone pointed out the FISA warrant was obtained by it.

"We're talking ultimate hatchet job in all of history case study here."

I missed that FISA warrant bit whenever that detail broke. I had been tuned in when the Downright Dirty Dossier hit, but the more the whole scene started oozing come spring, as BS started splattering and shooting in every direction I figured most of the rattatatat stories in the news, much of the sloppy blah blah blah armada was a waste of time to try to follow in depth as most of it all was in fact BS (like actual cowpie sized each scoop).

At the very least, political circustry of that scale just had to have wasting our time in an abyss of pointless particles had to be at least part of it all (whether to delay getting to the heart of it all, if not that was the whole point of it ALL to begin with).

I figured let the obligatory gossipy drama play out for a while, at some point the actual realities of all this RUSSIANS noise would finally start narrowing out the abyss.

I imagine there's still a lot of waste of time drama left to come around in the total remaining slurry, but indeed it seems on this Dastardly Dossier angle the cream is starting to squeeze out of all that aggregate...

originally posted by: theultimatebelgianjoke
a reply to: Grambler

Between the fact that Fusion GPS representatives decided to plead the fifth and, that they are now pushing an Obama apointee judge to block the release of their bank records, I wonder if we will ever get to the bottom of this.

Dont get me wrong, its important to find out exactly who paid for the dossier. But we basically already know.

To me the real stonewalling is the FBI refusing to tell congress just what they used this dossier for.

This is not only a blatant disregard for any oversight by the FBI independent of what they say, but could prove the most egregious actions in the whole scandal; that they used this dossier to get Fisa warrants.

a reply to: Grambler

I'm just enjoying the hypocrisy from those on the left.

If Trump did something illegal, then he should be punished.

But if Hillary did something illegal? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA, deflection-deflection-deflection.

I don't think anything will come of this that we (the great unwashed) will ever see. Behind the scenes, fingers will wag, people will say "tsk-tsk" and business will go on as usual, only next time they'll cover their tracks a little better.

Our system is broken, our politicians hopelessly corrupt, and the saddest part? Many of the little people eat it up and defend them.

great thread.. It has been great watching the left squirm on this subject.

The responses are all, Uhmmm. but.. well what about Trump.... But you guys always say,

They got nothing lol and instead of being pissed at the people who lied and conned them they try and defend and justify it whatever way they can.

originally posted by: kelbtalfenek
a reply to: Grambler

Just remember there are no honest politicians, and if you believe what they're telling you...well, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

This is probably true.

So imagine the power a sitting party would have if they can use the FBI as their personal political tool to survey people, investigate their entire lives, all without the opponent knowing. And seeing as how all of them have some dirt, there would always be something able to be brought up, while the party controlling the FBI would be immune from this.

I would basically lead to the indefinite holding on of power to whoever controlled the FBI.

In other words, the end of our country.

a reply to: Grambler

Grambler, the following reply is my rant and not intended as a personal attack on you.



Some people, like me, see all of this as an obvious deflection from the corruption and authoritarian threat to our democracy that currently resides in the White House. The "Trump Russia" issue isn't going away no matter how twisted the opposition gets in their fabrication of reality.

That is what they (those who would save their own skins) are hoping you are falling for - an alternate reality that feels better to those tired of wondering if their President and his men are possibly under scrutiny for a legitimate reason.

But this new Trump-as-victim story can only exist through the marketing of a convoluted and "flipped" new false reality where the villains the Right are comfortable with still reside on their spider couches and their hero, the God Emperor of The Golden Middle Finger, is still shiny and untarnished, a mere victim of those they have been trained to hate.

I've followed this from the beginning and can only watch in bemused horror as the Lords of Lies present this gift to their followers in a last hope to control the narrative. It's a Roger Stone and Sean Hannity move of dirty tricks and the agent provocateur. Sullying Mueller wasn't working, the noose was tightening and thus the fun-house mirror story of " what really happened *wink*" is being delivered on cue.

Brilliant.

Completely Machiavellian and a fine addition to our very own American Horror Story: The White House Edition.

a reply to: Grambler

4. Now we start to get to the huge problems. If this dossier was used to obtain Fisa warrants, it is one of the most corrupt things that I have ever seen in this country.

IF the dossier was used to obtain unmasking warrants, I would assume anything evidence-wise revealed as a result...would be considered illegally obtained and not admissible as evidence in any court.

originally posted by: Painterz
Correct me if I'm wrong though, this revelation doesn't demonstrate the contents of the dossier are false, simply who paid for the research to be conducted?


And we always knew that somebody paid for the research to be conducted, and it always seemed a reasonable bet it would be a political opponent of Trump?

You are correct. David Corn reported most of this a lonnnng time ago in Mother Jones. What we are witnessing is the marketing of a counter-narrative. Something for the right to rally around and believe in lieu of the truth.

a reply to: Grambler

Watergate was bigger.

a reply to: AboveBoard

No offense taken at all.

Basically what I get you are saying is Trump is really crappy and may have done crimes with Russia.

Lets assume all of that is true.

I again repeat, none of the OP in any way proves Trump is innocent, or that he is a good president or person. I am not even touching anything related to that on this thread.

But all of that pales in comparison to a sitting President being able to use the FBI to attack opponents.

Look at it this way; you hate Trump.

Imagaine that he is now able to get fisa warrants on everyone of his political opponents. he will be able to have every single one under investigation, be able to link any dirt about their lives to the media. He will not need to collude with Russia or any other pwer because he has the ultimate political weapon at his disposal.

The chances of him not only winning again in 2020, but of having whoever he wanted win after that would be unreal.

This si the precedent that has been set, and why we need to hold accountable the people who did it.

originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: Grambler

Watergate was bigger.

Not even close.

Water gate had people from Nixon break in to a hotel for info.

This would be having the FBI do that break in, then use the evidence they found to start an investigation.