It takes a big pair to make the claim of atheism.

a reply to: Out6of9Balance

It is not too personal.

Like I said before.. inconsistencies with scripture and such.

History, geography, science, biology etc.

God's actions and logic. The whole thing. It all started unravel.

Of course there is more to Christianity than the Bible itself.

But if the foundation is corrupt...

I never made a thread on most of this, but I did as far as my view of God's character go. Dunno if you are interested or not but here is a link if so: www.abovetopsecret.com...
There I look at God's stance on rape, slavery, murder, human sacrifice, free will, and lying (pg. 13).

There are many resources online as far as other things go.

skepticsannotatedbible.com... (some of the complaints are petty, I concede that!)

I cannot believe in something that has so many holes in it or requires blind faith + subjective experiences. After I became an atheist I didn't stop looking. In retrospect I realized the character himself is skewed......

I can get a bit passionate about the subject but I don't begrudge the faithful. Sorry if I seemed antagonistic. To each their own, life is a journey. For me I came to a crossroads and I could no longer believe in Christ because I felt it would be dishonest to myself. Also, disrespectful to God, should I be wrong.

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
It's doesn't bother you, doesn't it?

Absolutely not!

This is one of the best atheist/theist threads I've seen for a while, reasoned arguments and little rabid anger going on.
I'm still keeping an open mind and if some god had decent verifiable evidence to back it's existence up I'd believe in a heartbeat, I just don't do blind faith though...God claims to me are in the pixie and elves filing cabinet, I don't say they are BS just that there is nothing drawing me towards believing the claims are true.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
a reply to: Out6of9Balance

It is not too personal.

Like I said before.. inconsistencies with scripture and such.

History, geography, science, biology etc.

God's actions and logic. The whole thing. It all started unravel.

Of course there is more to Christianity than the Bible itself.

But if the foundation is corrupt...

I never made a thread on most of this, but I did as far as my view of God's character go. Dunno if you are interested or not but here is a link if so: www.abovetopsecret.com...
There I look at God's stance on rape, slavery, murder, human sacrifice, free will, and lying (pg. 13).

There are many resources online as far as other things go.

skepticsannotatedbible.com... (some of the complaints are petty, I concede that!)

I cannot believe in something that has so many holes in it or requires blind faith + subjective experiences. After I became an atheist I didn't stop looking. In retrospect I realized the character himself is skewed......

I can get a bit passionate about the subject but I don't begrudge the faithful. Sorry if I seemed antagonistic. To each their own, life is a journey. For me I came to a crossroads and I could no longer believe in Christ because I felt it would be dishonest to myself. Also, disrespectful to God, should I be wrong.

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
It's doesn't bother you, doesn't it?

Absolutely not!

But, from what you say God has always been imagined and logic got you to stop imagining him, or at least try.

On the other hand, in comparison, would you change how you feel about your mother from what you read in a book or online forums about women?

You claim God was never real in your life. I believe you're insinuating believers are nothing but delusional, which is not nice. You just can't go label all of humanity by your own experience. We, believers, know from experience we have been disbelievers.

From what you say, I can't tell you have ever been a believer, but maybe Christian in the demeaning sense some people give to it.

From what you say you shouldn't believe the Bible, but have you ever found God in your life?

originally posted by: TJames
This is one of the best atheist/theist threads I've seen for a while, reasoned arguments and little rabid anger going on.
I'm still keeping an open mind and if some god had decent verifiable evidence to back it's existence up I'd believe in a heartbeat, I just don't do blind faith though...God claims to me are in the pixie and elves filing cabinet, I don't say they are BS just that there is nothing drawing me towards believing the claims are true.

Faith is never blind, if faith could be blind you're giving another meaning to the word.

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
But, from what you say God has always been imagined and logic got you to stop imagining him, or at least try.

I did not state that exactly. I think that is too much of a simplification. A hand waving it all aside like it is nothing. That's not exactly how I feel. I do not believe in it and believe it to be false. However I don't like broad brushing it all as delusions or imagination. I don't think people that do believe are stupid morons. Depending on context. But that goes for anything. I mean morons are morons and they can be found everywhere.

Yes in retrospect, looking back on my experiences and consider those of others, I consider them "imagined" - but not in the sense of delusions. I experienced something. In my head but still very real. Real in the sense, that it was an experience. The explanation I at first attributed to Jesus. Obviously I have since changed that opinion.

On the other hand, in comparison, would you change how you feel about your mother from what you read in a book or online forums about women?

I think I see what you're trying to get at here and I counter with this question. If the Bible is not the foundation of God's word then who are you to determine what denomination is right or wrong? Whether or not one mans message from the Lord is genuine or not? Do the Mormons have it right? The Lutherans? Quakers? How do you fact check God? If it is all based on feeling than how do you know what. if anything you ever hear about God is true or false?

Seriously! How do you check it eh?

Think about it.. Earlier you told me I must not have been doing it right? Well what made you think that?

You know your God is the one true God. So does the Jew. So does the Muslim. So does [feel in the blank].

On other words, your "knowing" is nothing but subjective.

You claim God was never real in your life.

No, I claimed the opposite... Or at least that I thought he was real, for a very long time.

I believe you're insinuating believers are nothing but delusional, which is not nice. You just can't go label all of humanity by your own experience. We, believers, know from experience we have been disbelievers.

Delusional is a strong term I don't want to use. But alright, you know for a fact. As I said above.. so does the convinced Jew, or Muslim or [fill in the blank]. Your "knowing" doesn't really prove a thing. In fact it helps my side more.

All these religions with all these religious people that "know" their God is real, because they have a relationship with him or whatever. Great. So while all their holy texts from divine beings can be picked apart and studied, shown to be man made-- these subjective experiences are supposed to overshadow all those little issues.

Alright fair enough.. maybe. So which religion is right?

I mean, they all "know".

From what you say, I can't tell you have ever been a believer, but maybe Christian in the demeaning sense some people give to it.

I believed that he rolls up his sleeves he aint just puttin on the ritz. There was thunder in his footsteps and lightning in his fists. He wasn't jokin when he kicked them out of Eden. It wasn't for no reason that he shed his blood. His return was very close so you better be believin' ..

Not sure what I can do to prove to you I was a believer. What do you need? Bible versus? Lessons? A list of my favorite Christian bands? The address to my old church? Videos of old plays I was in? Veggie Tales? Psalty the Bible? Bible Man? Carman? Adventures in Odyssey? Do I need to recite various parables? My reality was that God sent his one and only begotten son etc..

From what you say you shouldn't believe the Bible,

I don't think you should.

but have you ever found God in your life?

How have I not established that yes, I have.

I believed, genuinely. Then, eventually, I realized I was wrong.

My beliefs did not stand up to scrutiny.

To answer your question about my mom, it would entirely depend.

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
Faith is never blind, if faith could be blind you're giving another meaning to the word.

I'm not trying to give another meaning to the word, just sharing my interpretation of it.
I have faith that my best friend will not steal from me based on experience and history that he is someone I can trust.
I have no faith in any gods because I have experienced nothing in my life to draw me towards believing that such claims are true. There is zero verifiable or testable evidence to support claims of gods, from Abrahamic to Zoroastrian and everything in between.
That said I can only consider 'faith' in such claimed entities to be 'blind', based on nothing other than a personal feeling.

If you have anything better to bring to the table please do as I have an open mind, but if all you've got is 'personal experience' sorry, but I'll just consider it blind faith and potentially delusional mental health issues.

Remember, I'm not the one making claims here, I do not assert there are no gods, just that I've seen nothing in my life to draw me towards believing there are. My position is one of rational thinking, not faith.

Any theists reading this who have something new to bring to the table which supports claims of gods?
As I said I have an open mind, but if all you have is some alleged 'personal experience' with a claimed god then it ain't gonna wash with me for obvious reasons.
...oh and on topic I've explained my lack of belief in gods quite well in my opinion in this thread, does my position require a pair to defend?

originally posted by: TJames
Any theists reading this who have something new to bring to the table which supports claims of gods?
As I said I have an open mind, but if all you have is some alleged 'personal experience' with a claimed god then it ain't gonna wash with me for obvious reasons.
...oh and on topic I've explained my lack of belief in gods quite well in my opinion in this thread, does my position require a pair to defend?

Actually, that's not the topic, the OP was about atheists having no fundamental proof god does not exist.

a reply to: Out6of9Balance

What's so hard about using Occam's Razor and/or the Null Hypothesis? I'm just siding with does not exist because it is the most likely explanation given the evidence we have. I don't need to have evidence that god doesn't exist because you don't prove a negative.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Out6of9Balance

What's so hard about using Occam's Razor and/or the Null Hypothesis? I'm just siding with does not exist because it is the most likely explanation given the evidence we have. I don't need to have evidence that god doesn't exist because you don't prove a negative.

Basically, what we're stating is you find God with your being. In theory, we find Jesus in ourselves and god in jesus. We didn't find god through science like you would like to find god. These are two different ways of finding God. You should know God is a Spirit so what evidence would you like to find from God in the world, tangible evidence?

The bible claims that some wouldn't even want to believe if they were shown miracles and what would be the point believing God exists without having a personal relation with him, without having found him in your heart?

a reply to: CulturalResilience

Eh I would say there is a third option. There are many gods

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Out6of9Balance

What's so hard about using Occam's Razor and/or the Null Hypothesis? I'm just siding with does not exist because it is the most likely explanation given the evidence we have. I don't need to have evidence that god doesn't exist because you don't prove a negative.

Basically, what we're stating is you find God with your being. In theory, we find Jesus in ourselves and god in jesus. We didn't find god through science like you would like to find god. These are two different ways of finding God. You should know God is a Spirit so what evidence would you like to find from God in the world, tangible evidence?

You found god and jesus through your parents. If it weren't for them indoctrinating you into their religion you wouldn't care about either of them. Instead you'd be all about whatever religion your parents were instead. Besides a few exceptions who find religion later in life (through prison or move into a new culture or marrying into a new culture, etc) I'd say that most people on the planet base their religion on their parents and community more so than any actual evidence.

Trust me, I've been there. My parents were Catholic. I didn't become an agnostic atheist until much later in my life after much logical reflecting on the fallacies contained first within Catholicism, then with Christianity, and then finally with the bible itself.

The bible claims that some wouldn't even want to believe if they were shown miracles and what would be the point believing God exists without having a personal relation with him, without having found him in your heart?

Well yeah. Of course these people exist. Flat earthers exist today don't they? Some people are just born perpetually ignorant. Ron White says it best, "You can't fix stupid." Though, don't confuse refusal to believe/stubbornness with a high standard of evidence. The scientific method's standard of evidence is much higher than Christianity's so what you'd consider to be an undeniable religious experience someone using the scientific method may just roll their eyes.

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: CulturalResilience

Eh I would say there is a third option. There are many gods

Perhaps you are addressing false gods.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Out6of9Balance

What's so hard about using Occam's Razor and/or the Null Hypothesis? I'm just siding with does not exist because it is the most likely explanation given the evidence we have. I don't need to have evidence that god doesn't exist because you don't prove a negative.

Basically, what we're stating is you find God with your being. In theory, we find Jesus in ourselves and god in jesus. We didn't find god through science like you would like to find god. These are two different ways of finding God. You should know God is a Spirit so what evidence would you like to find from God in the world, tangible evidence?

You found god and jesus through your parents. If it weren't for them indoctrinating you into their religion you wouldn't care about either of them. Instead you'd be all about whatever religion your parents were instead. Besides a few exceptions who find religion later in life (through prison or move into a new culture or marrying into a new culture, etc) I'd say that most people on the planet base their religion on their parents and community more so than any actual evidence.

Trust me, I've been there. My parents were Catholic. I didn't become an agnostic atheist until much later in my life after much logical reflecting on the fallacies contained first within Catholicism, then with Christianity, and then finally with the bible itself.

The bible claims that some wouldn't even want to believe if they were shown miracles and what would be the point believing God exists without having a personal relation with him, without having found him in your heart?

Well yeah. Of course these people exist. Flat earthers exist today don't they? Some people are just born perpetually ignorant. Ron White says it best, "You can't fix stupid." Though, don't confuse refusal to believe/stubbornness with a high standard of evidence. The scientific method's standard of evidence is much higher than Christianity's so what you'd consider to be an undeniable religious experience someone using the scientific method may just roll their eyes.

All I can say is you show yourself vulnerable when you pretend having it all figured out. Vulnerable and rude.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I see it the same way we'd look at ghosts. Is there any proof that ghosts are real? Nope. A lot of people believe that ghosts are real and there a lot of personal stories & other anecdotal accounts. But there's simply no verifiable evidence of ghosts being real. Now imagine someone trying to say a "nonbeliever" in ghosts needs to prove that ghosts aren't real. Ridiculous, right? That's like me trying to make you prove that the Bell Witch is fake.

I seriously don't understand the point in debates like this. If people want to believe, then it's fine. If people don't want to believe, that's also fine. All societies are filled with unproven beliefs, including superstitions, the belief in "luck", ETs, guardian spirits/guardian angels/guardian ancestor spirits, etc. Why does it even matter if people share or don't share these unprovable beliefs? Meh.

a reply to: Out6of9Balance

I don't pretend I have it all figured out. If you can prove to me that god exists with evidence then I'll change my opinion. But fantastical claims require fantastical evidence and there is TONS of evidence stacked against the bible being even an accurate history book let alone a book about historical magic.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Exactly. If I come up to you and tell you to prove to me that a Beholder doesn't exist, if you had never played D&D before you'd look at me like I had eight eyes (well like I was a beholder. lol). How do you even build the frame of reference to prove something doesn't exist if you weren't even aware it was a thing?

a reply to: Out6of9Balance

No, I'm a polytheist, I thus do not consider them false. I acknowledge the Abrahamic god is A god just not the only one. Prove me wrong. Oh and don't quote the bible at me. I'll quote something back which will not fit in your paradigm.

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: Out6of9Balance

No, I'm a polytheist, I thus do not consider them false. I acknowledge the Abrahamic god is A god just not the only one. Prove me wrong. Oh and don't quote the bible at me. I'll quote something back which will not fit in your paradigm.

You're a disbeliever when you don't follow the Creator.