ATS Civil War

originally posted by: TheOneElectric
a reply to: FauxMulder

Education, awareness, and time.

Ok I'm educated, aware, and been listening to people bitch about perceived white privilege for years now. Is it over yet?

originally posted by: DrunkenMimeMaster

originally posted by: intrptr

originally posted by: DrunkenMimeMaster
a reply to: intrptr

I dunno. Borders serve only to divide, some imports are necessary, and how limited do you mean?

The only job as set forth by the constitution of the United states is to provide for the common defense (nobody is attacking the continental US), and coin money of the realm. Otherwise, stay out of the business of the states.

That limited service provided by the elected representatives is to be paid for by the collection of tariffs from imports.

That would be nice, but the reality is, this country would grind to a halt if that were actually attempted, these days.

Its going to wind up toast if we don't change the course its on.

Empires always wind up on the ash heap of history.

a reply to: intrptr

Pity no one told Bush :p


Sorry, uncalled for. But given we are in a series of endless wars with no true objective, seems close to accurate.

a reply to: ClovenSky

White privilege has nothing to do with money or tangible rewards.

I think one thing needs to be stated that rarely is discussed. The term white privilege automatically causes some whites to hear it and assume that there is an implication of whites being a negative force in the world, retaining heavy responsibility for the sins of the father, enjoying the easiest lives possible, reveling in the abdication of duty, and never being excluded from any organization or opportunity.

The problem here is that none of that is true. White privilege has nothing to do with any of that. It's almost like this language and these words we use have certain connotations depending on the region uses, person using them, and levels of prejudice wrapped in the word itself. Imagine the phrase, "Black Lives Matter". It seems like a lot of conservatives automatically take a zero sum game approach to that phrase when it actually means "Black Lives Matter, Too" (which isn't as catchy and is assumed to be understood based on the way authority handles those lives that are not black compared to those that are. It was merely a plea in the night. B U T we're not talking about that. It was just an example.)

Terrible and devastating things happen to whites, too. That's just the world that we live in. White people are often taken advantage of by powers and industries just like any other commoner in this big, beautiful, terrifyingly complicated world.

The phrase and idea behind "White Privilege" isn't meant to belittle, ignore, or diminish the experiences of whites. No, in fact, it's meant to do something much different. It's meant to help individuals realize and understand that there are different lived experiences that should be taken into consideration when historical, tribal, sociological and political context isn't ignored.

Let's consider this: www.npr.org...

As we can see, there have been explicitly racist policies undertaken by the US government recently that helped create tangible appreciating wealth for one race and denied it to another. It all resulted in many (e.g. not all) white families living in wealthier areas while blacks tended to get the shaft. Time, politics, tribal emotion, and ingrained senses of justification made it worse. Take, for example, the great monopoly experiement .



The idea that one has an advantage will fade into the background and a feeling of justification for any perceived "advantage" will occur. It's human nature. However, it will progress to a sense of superiority and justification in dominance...a right of sorts. Then, like clock work, it becomes a natural feeling of superiority and inherent dominance that sits in the seat of the subconscious. It builds upon itself.

Housing and land was but one of many examples that all have historical context that compounds upon itself. White privilege may manifest as:
Feeling safe in the face of armed authority as they exist for your protection, being provided with lesser sentences for the same crimes, attending a nazi rally and being labeled as misguided, being a school shooter and the world seeing you as: a tragic soul that society failed to aid, being chosen for an interview due to your race, more likely to get a raise, less likely for your mistake to reflect the incompetency of your race, less likely to be dehumanized in the face of authority due to your race, more likely to be seen as an individual and not some monolithic culture, unlikely to be called one of the good ones, preferential loans even if sharing the same credit history of a minority.
It's the social, historical, economic, and political benefit of the doubt.

Disagreement will come because, just as the monopoly kids show, one feels attacked for whatever success they may have. It brings into question one's entire existential underpinnings. It's a difficult charge to take, but it's an appropriate one to meditate on for personal and societal growth. But, one must remember that it's not about a single person's life experiences. It describes a rhythm of thought and a insidious subtle societal pattern that benefit some and incidentally harm others.

Think about it like this. What we call basic rights and receipt of basic dignity has been elevated to privilege, bringing the idea of noticed discrimination to a base line level of nil. When this occurs, everyone suffers, and no one asks, demands, protests, or work for more in life. They become content with the crumbs doled out by TBTB. When others do, white privilege causes some to tell them to "shut up." Thus, divide and conquer not only thrives, but self perpetuates.

Taking things from people, calling them names, and defacing their property won't solve it.

It's all about breaking out of patterns of thinking and education. That will end what we call White Privilege and will also free us from some of the other overbearing juggernauts of culture, economics, government, and society that we all suffer under.


I hope I helped. If I didn't, let me know, I really want to have this conversation. I'm a bit busy, but we can have it slowly through this thread or by PM without sarcasm or straw men.

originally posted by: TheOneElectric
a reply to: Asktheanimals

I have a legitimate question and seriously hope not to start a conflict by asking.


What is wrong with wanting to end white privilege?

I am tempted to take the bait. But taking the bait is what I am ranting about.

You can't end something that doesn't in reality exist

Even if it did, you still can't end it...why? Because at this moment in time, the caucasian race just happens to be the dominant race. The people that a crying and sobbing about "white privilege" live in a white dominated country and society. If I moved to Saudi Arabia, there would be brown privilege and I'd have to suck it up if I moved to Japan there would be japanese privilege I suppose, there certainly wouldn't be white folks getting preferential treatment above the indigenous population in either of those countries. Hell if I move to Canada even though its a country yet again dominated by whites, there would be no privilege for me as when it comes to jobs etc Canadians get them first unless you're in a needed profession.

a reply to: MisterMcKill

What angers me the most about all of this is it spilling over into other threads. I see members that, would get along, and share info/work on theories, that surly knew they had differing political beliefs before, now immediately disregarding legitimate posts. I see far, FAR too often "Well you're a Trump support/voted for Trump. Nothing you say can be taken seriously"
Can't forget how every god damned thread gets derailed and devolves into name calling snd politcsl trolling within the first page, "oh, a bird # on a guys head in Japan? IT'S TRUMPS FAULT! He's responsible for every bad thing ever"
It's disgusting, and you people are making me ashamed to be associated with you. "Deny Ignorance" went out the window a long time ago. But for the love of god could all, on both sides, at least stop propagating it?? Is that too much to ask?
This site has become garbage and every day when I get on I'm remined why I stopped coming before the election.



And because of how awful everyone has become I know I have to include this last bit:
I do not, nor have I supported Trump. Now that he's in office I wish him the best of luck and would like to see him succeed. But no, I'm not a "trumpette"

originally posted by: Perfectenemy
a reply to: MisterMcKill

Since i'm only human i guess i'll take the first step. I hereby apologize to all members for any post or comment that went too far. I'm very blunt and sometimes i forget that not every person is like me and values that. Again my sincerest apologies. I don't expect anything in return btw.

It is not about comments that go too far. I am saying that this debate over the Civil War will have no winners. You do not owe anybody anything. But we all owe ourselves the kind of community that we want. And I see that slipping away over a false narrative.

originally posted by: FauxMulder

originally posted by: TheOneElectric
a reply to: FauxMulder

Education, awareness, and time.

Ok I'm educated, aware, and been listening to people bitch about perceived white privilege for years now. Is it over yet?

All of it ends when we want it to. May we please discuss aliens now?

originally posted by: MDpvc
a reply to: MisterMcKill

What angers me the most about all of this is it spilling over into other threads. I see members that, would get along, and share info/work on theories, that surly knew they had differing political beliefs before, now immediately disregarding legitimate posts. I see far, FAR too often "Well you're a Trump support/voted for Trump. Nothing you say can be taken seriously"
Can't forget how every god damned thread gets derailed and devolves into name calling snd politcsl trolling within the first page, "oh, a bird # on a guys head in Japan? IT'S TRUMPS FAULT! He's responsible for every bad thing ever"
It's disgusting, and you people are making me ashamed to be associated with you. "Deny Ignorance" went out the window a long time ago. But for the love of god could all, on both sides, at least stop propagating it?? Is that too much to ask?
This site has become garbage and every day when I get on I'm remined why I stopped coming before the election.

And because of how awful everyone has become I know I have to include this last bit:
I do not, nor have I supported Trump. Now that he's in office I wish him the best of luck and would like to see him succeed. But no, I'm not a "trumpette"

I most certainly agree that it is spilling over into threads it has no business being in. I just wish that we could reign it in a bit, stay on topic, and make this place less of an echo chamber for the left/right paradigm.

a reply to: intrptr

Preposterous. Corporations are publicly owned entities & their employees include normal citizens. Many of the citizens you consider "we the people" own stocks or bonds in these corporations and literally benefit directly from their actions. This can be through direct investments as well as indirectly though retirement funds.

"Deep state", "the State", and "the Establishment" are all vague terms that keep people divided. And there's literally no way to change this current system until people can acknowledge that it's the people among "us" who are enabling it. Protesting against an "evil" corporation but still buying its products is literally enabling it. Protesting against "the State" while reelecting its members and/or working in a govt job is literally enabling it. Protesting against the MIC yet joining the military, working for a defense contractor, and/or supporting any military intervention or expansion whatsoever is literally enabling the MIC. How are citizens "against" these things when our purchases, volunteered service, and voting records directly enable them?

It's the citizens ourselves who make up the vast majority of the millions of govt employees, millions of employees in the MIC, millions of employees & customers for corporations, and millions of supporters of corrupt politicians. People talk as if these organizations are privately owned, privately run, and only contain "outsiders". But the reality is that the majority of them are publicly owned companies, are filled with citizen employees and administrators, and have "the people" as their primary customers, either directly as consumers or indirectly through tax funds.

a reply to: TheOneElectric

You have put a lot of time and effort into this. I wish I could be a worthy conversationalists for this subject but you are beyond my abilities to follow this rabbit hole. But I have never let my ignorance stop me before....

I do think the term white privilege is used in reference to wealth and material possessions, especially by those that don't have it and don't want to work towards that materialistic goal. They think the ones that are wealthy and white were just handed that trophy.

For the record, I do not judge success by material possessions. In fact, I think unearned wealth greatly reduces a person's chances of being happy during their time in this reality.

I can sort of understand where you are coming from with the idea of safety and comfort being afforded to those within the same group and majority. But that doesn't seem like 'privilege'. It seems like a rule of life. If I moved to an area where I was the minority, I would shut the (*(#*( up and observe. I would recognize myself as being the outsider and not being owed anything. I would keep my head down and if I wanted to fit in or succeed in that environment, I would need to assimilate to this environment.

But take my family for example. They lived on the east coast and struggled. They moved to flyover country to a very homogeneous area and thrived. Maybe not so much in material wealth, but much better in quality of life and happiness. Was this privilege or intelligence and determination?

"Cry 'Havoc!', and let slip the dogs of war".

-Mark Antony in Act 3, Scene 1, line 273 of William Shakespeare's Julius Caesar

originally posted by: TheOneElectric
a reply to: Asktheanimals

I have a legitimate question and seriously hope not to start a conflict by asking.


What is wrong with wanting to end white privilege?

because many of the problems are stemming from many people not even knowing the difference between white privilege and simply being white. same for black privilege and being black. you can't eliminate what you define. (not YOU in particular, obviously...but the dummies with the bullhorns).
I'm going to be honest, not naive, but honest: I can't even tell you what the "privilege" thing is about.
privilege, to me, is waking up every morning to a new day.

Civil war?

I have no dog in this fight.

I just see it as people eliminating each other, per there wishes to further this nonsense.

So I look at it as this.....

well I'm sorry but I don't believe in white privilege I mean there are black people in all walks of life here and we just had a black President for heavens sake! am I alone in thinking this! it seems like it! maybe its just not here where I live! (thankfully) fwiw

a reply to: enlightenedservant

'They' is the global elite. 'We' are "We the People" And "them" is not 'we the people'.

So, to put this in context, I'll give you my take on it...

The global elite know no country, they have no allegiance to any government, only to money and power. Governments, to them, are only tools they use to "mine" the wealth of entire nations, entire continents...the world at large.

This is all part of a larger plan. For nearly a century they, the global elite, have been successful in fleecing untold sums by exploiting the poor and the underprivileged. They've also been successful at robbing the upper class(es) (not to be confused with the global elite) through punitive taxes and regulation. At the same time, the super-rich (also not elites) and the politician facilitators have been able to insulate themselves from these robber-barons. They've become enablers of the elite in the process...in exchange for immunity to their thieving ways. There's a problem though...there's no more money to pilfer. The trillions upon trillions they've stolen have left no money to rob in from the poor, the underprivileged and the upper classes. So who's left? The middle class.

There are untold sums of money squirreled away in the middle class of America and northern Europe in particular. The global elite realize this and have set their sights on getting access to it. To date they have been largely unsuccessful for a variety of reasons. Numerous methods have been employed, none successful. They MUST get their filthy hands on the money of the middle class! It's the only thing left. The global elite are now DESPERATE! They need their "fix", and will stop at nothing to get it.

So now the plan is to shatter the middle class into a million pieces, to divide them across every dividing line modern society has to offer (i.e. racial, political, social, religious, cultural, etc.). They want to play the middle class against themselves, to destroy them, to make them so crazed and desperate that they will do anything to make it stop...up to and including begging the global elite to step in and help. This is exactly the global elite's plan! It plays right into their evil game.

That's who 'they', 'we' and 'them' are...in my opinion.

originally posted by: DrunkenMimeMaster
a reply to: intrptr

Pity no one told Bush :p


Sorry, uncalled for. But given we are in a series of endless wars with no true objective, seems close to accurate.

During WWII the German and Japanese people were lied to till the end, too.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

If you don't know who "they," the elite, are, then you're not paying attention

a reply to: MisterMcKill

I feel (note the phrase people) that the problem here is that you have competing ideologies arguing. Can you name the last time that ideologies that are that opposed were able to politely co-exist? Zealots will be zealots, and Zealots love a good battle for the cause.

Personally (yes I'm taking a side), I'm about done with the white supremacist, alt-Right, and similar far right movement. Thats just me, I'm not here to fight them, that will not change their world view. IF they however impinge on my life, they are in trouble. I say this, where previously I've had to deal with Skin Heads, NeoNazi's and Aryan Brotherhood idiots. I've scars from where THEY attacked first. I was doing my job working security, they were being idiots. I have no time for them, or their ideology, and would not put them out if they were burning.

This is how this "Civil War" is happening