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originally posted by: theworldisnotenough
I was thinking: have people no honor anymore?
I wondered, starting weeks ago actually: why haven't people jumped ship from the White House considering all the West Wing dirt and scandal that has been putting a drag on the Executive's Branch’s performance and, for that matter, the performance of Congress, too?
In fact, a T.V. personality (I forget which one) expressed concern that there, so far, have been no significant wave(s) of resignations being announced by White House personnel as one would expect.
Anyway, my original question still stands: why have no pardons been issued yet? So, what is the possible mindset behind this?
I just learned from MSNBC that the Supreme Court has ruled that, for a pardon to be effective, IT HAS TO BE ACCEPTED by the recipient, and such ACCEPTANCE IS AN ADMISSION OF GUILT!
originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: theworldisnotenough
Burdick vs. United States is the case law and it only refers to people who are already convicted. It does not say anything about people being pardoned when they are never charged.
Now therefore be it known, that I, Woodrow Wilson, President of the United States of America, ... do hereby grant unto the said George Burdick a full and unconditional pardon for all offenses against the United States which he, the said George Burdick, has committed or may have committed or taken part in in connection with the securing, writing about, or assisting in the publication of the information so incorporated in the aforementioned article, and in connection with any other article, matter, or thing concerning which he may be interrogated in the said grand jury proceeding, thereby absolving him from the consequences of every such criminal act.
It is asserted besides that the pardon is void as being outside of the power of the President under the Constitution of the United States because it was issued before accusation or conviction or admission of an offense. This, it is insisted, is precluded by the constitutional provision which gives power only "to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States," and it is argued, in effect, that not in the imagination or purpose of executive magistracy can an "offense against the United States" be established, but only by the confession of the offending individual or the judgment of the judicial tribunals.
This brings us to the differences between legislative immunity and a pardon. They are substantial. The latter carries an imputation of guilt; acceptance a confession of it. [This is the point of the OP, I believe, and it's accurate] The former has no such imputation or confession. It is tantamount to the silence of the witness. It is noncommittal. It is the unobtrusive act of the law given protection against a sinister use of his testimony, not like a pardon, requiring him to confess his guilt in order to avoid a conviction of it.
It is of little service to assert or deny an analogy between amnesty and pardon. Mr. Justice Field, in Knote v. United States, 95 U. S. 149, 95 U. S. 153, said that "the distinction between them is one rather of philological interest than of legal importance." This is so as to their ultimate effect, but there are incidental differences of importance. They are of different character and have different purposes. The one overlooks offense; the other remits punishment.
Judgment reversed, with directions to dismiss the proceedings in contempt, and discharge Burdick from custody.
originally posted by: Sillyolme
a reply to: shooterbrody
So when he does issue pardons what will that mean?
Because he's going to fire Sessions and he's going to try and fire Mueller and when that doesn't happen he's going to pardon them.
He can't pardon himself from impeachment proceedings and no president has ever pardoned themselves.
Either way he will be ruined in the social sector and his businesses will suffer.
originally posted by: theworldisnotenough
Anyway, my original question still stands: why have no pardons been issued yet? So, what is the possible mindset behind this?
originally posted by: Sillyolme
a reply to: rockintitz
No but the seven to eleven o'clock hours is certainly enough time to get comprehensive information.
Or you know tune into Fox and talk about Hillary's emails some more lol.
originally posted by: SlapMonkey
My point being that a pardon is not only legal if someone is already convicted, but can be offered also when they have admitted to or been formally charged with specific crimes--a conviction does not appear to be necessary.
originally posted by: SlapMonkey
An interesting thing to note from reading that link thoroughly is that the state had Burdick detained because he would not testify, even with a pardon. It was a previous case, U.S. v Wilson, that determined that a pardon was tantamount to an offer of property, and that it had to be accepted and cited before being valid in the court. They basically felt that Burdick was in contempt by not testifying because he had the pardon--this was not the case. He rejected the pardon multiple times and basically "plead the fifth," which is his absolute right to do.
originally posted by: SlapMonkey
But here's the interesting--and important--part of it all that I think many get confused on:
This brings us to the differences between legislative immunity and a pardon. They are substantial. The latter carries an imputation of guilt; acceptance a confession of it. [This is the point of the OP, I believe, and it's accurate] The former has no such imputation or confession. It is tantamount to the silence of the witness. It is noncommittal. It is the unobtrusive act of the law given protection against a sinister use of his testimony, not like a pardon, requiring him to confess his guilt in order to avoid a conviction of it.
It is of little service to assert or deny an analogy between amnesty and pardon. Mr. Justice Field, in Knote v. United States, 95 U. S. 149, 95 U. S. 153, said that "the distinction between them is one rather of philological interest than of legal importance." This is so as to their ultimate effect, but there are incidental differences of importance. They are of different character and have different purposes. The one overlooks offense; the other remits punishment.
So, yes, in the eyes of the court, a pardon, when issued, is the president saying, "Hey, we know that you committed this offense," and an acceptance and usage of said pardon is the individual replying, "Yeah, I did...thanks for letting me not get punished for it."
Also to note, many people seem to mistake a pardon as being synonymous with amnesty (as it appears even Woodrow Wilson did)--it is not, as is noted in that last quoted paragraph. Amnesty disregards the commission of an offense altogether, whereas a pardon only affects how someone is punished for an offense.
This is a fine detail, but a worthy one to note.
As for Burdick, this determination concerning the pardon and his refusal subsequent assertion of his fifth-amendment right against self incrimination, concluded the court's opinion thusly:
Judgment reversed, with directions to dismiss the proceedings in contempt, and discharge Burdick from custody.
That, everyone, is a win for individual rights, as a pardon cannot be forced upon an individual.
originally posted by: SlapMonkey
originally posted by: theworldisnotenough
Anyway, my original question still stands: why have no pardons been issued yet? So, what is the possible mindset behind this?
See my responsehere, if you want a thorough, factual answer.
But in short, pardons can only be issues in the event of someone being charge with, admitting to, or convicted of a criminal act. Blanket pardons before either of these three instances have occurred are illegal and invalid.
This is why all of those fears of Obama pardoning Clinton before he left office for things that she hadn't been charged with were unfounded fears based on ignorance. The same applies here.
originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: theworldisnotenough
You can't pardon someone until there is something to pardon them for.