The Roswell Crash... Alien Spacecraft or Mogul Service Flight?

originally posted by: JimOberg
Some years ago, while researching the Soviet space program, I made the acquaintance of a senior Defense Intelligence Agency official. In a discussion of the technique of military intelligence. Unaware of my side interest in UFO lore, he related a story he had been told by his instructors at the Defense Intelligence School at Anacostia, Maryland, in the mid-1950s. As an example of the exactly WRONG approach to 'military intelligence', he described an example of a base intelligence officer who had decided that he had discovered a crashed flying saucer and that the country needed to know about it right away. My source explained that all base intelligence officers were tasked with collecting raw intelligence and passing it, in full detail, to the professional analysts at headquarters, where its significance can be determined. They were specifically instructed NOT to reach any conclusions about the meaning of what they found because, he explained, any theory, once implanted in the mind of a data collector, becomes a subconscious editor of what subsequent facts are stressed, what facts are considered distracting or unimportant, what facts support the on-site officer's conclusions and require elaboration or speculation or reinforcement in the narrative. He told me that the intelligence officer in the flying saucer case [he did not mention Roswell] was held up for ridicule and disapproval for many years at the school, as a lesson on what to NEVER do when out in the field collecting raw intelligence information. He was an object of ridicule, and professional condemnation.

Jim, this is the thing. Any respected person in their field, would get ridiculed for just saying that some ufos defy explanation. We have seen it time and time again, people losing credibility, and even their jobs.

How many people out there actually believe that some ufos defy explanation, but will never come forward and say that because of ridicule?

I am not just talking about arm chair debunkers who just want to be in a group that considers themselves intelligent because they use words like "critical thinking"

I am talking about scientists, pilots, army personal, police etc All being made fun out of or ridiculed by their co workers, media etc

It is very sad

Some UFO reports do defy explanation. That's a fact.

The dispute is over whether that implies there IS no explanation, or merely that amateur investigators working part time with only partial insight into aerial and space activities in the region of the story, don't have the information needed to find EVERY explanation.

We've argued this before and will argue it again.

a reply to: Jay-morris

"Jim, this is the thing. Any respected person in their field, would get ridiculed for just saying that some ufos defy explanation. We have seen it time and time again, people losing credibility, and even their jobs. "


Its a science problem in general, talk about Einsteins relativity and Steady-state vs Expansion have been discussed by supposed educated men in childlike manner. And if you dont believe the same as them, you're a crackpot. Is it their atheist upbringing, maybe they were teased as nerds in school, or perhaps it is an amateurish attempt to shame people as dumb so they wont offer competing theories out of fear... who knows.




You see the same thing in comments section of Randles blog on Mogul, highly entertaining to be sure, by supposed educated men.

originally posted by: 111DPKING111
a reply to: Jay-morris

"Jim, this is the thing. Any respected person in their field, would get ridiculed for just saying that some ufos defy explanation. We have seen it time and time again, people losing credibility, and even their jobs. "


Its a science problem in general, talk about Einsteins relativity and Steady-state vs Expansion have been discussed by supposed educated men in childlike manner. And if you dont believe the same as them, you're a crackpot. Is it their atheist upbringing, maybe they were teased as nerds in school, or perhaps it is an amateurish attempt to shame people as dumb so they wont offer competing theories out of fear... who knows.


You see the same thing in comments section of Randles blog on Mogul, highly entertaining to be sure, by supposed educated men.

I have noticed this and observed this exact thing for a long, long time. It would seem that some folks can simply see right through it just like riding a bike, but most of the world buys right into it like mana from heaven. For example: Seth Shostak of SETI never misses a chance to ridicule and defame the idea of ET's being anywhere except far far away from earth. A person with an active role in searching for ET's ridiculing the very notion that there are any, at least publicly.

So we have accomplished scientists doing their science, but when they take a public podium, they don't want, or "can't" say what they really think, and in that context it is difficult to select words that sound convincing, so it comes out sounding childish, or sounding like some kind of narrative made for public consumption. They are either doing it because they have been made to, or something else, but it always shows that something is very wrong about them. Not everyone notices these things.

a reply to: tjocksteffe

Well, if it really only was a Mogul balloon, why all the different cover stories from the air force over the years?

What cover stories? The AAF came out later that day in 1947 and said it was a weather balloon. In 1994, the 993 page Air Force report explained in detail it was from Project Mogul. Both being balloon arrays. As I said, the second report a few years later was an explanation for an unnecessary fabricated part of the tale.
There was no great conspiracy and cover up. This is part of the story sold to you by UFOlogist with an agenda to sell the story. You have to believe all of this based solely on word of mouth.

I'll ask again for anyone that believes this is a conspiracy, if this was a cover up and the military lied in 1947 and then in 1994, why didn't the Air Force create a more believable story for the alien bodies? They fabricated and lied about the Mogul program and launches, but then gave a weak story to explain the alien bodies? How is that logical? What is logical is that they were giving factual information for both. The first being true and explains the crash, the second being true also, but can't realistically explain the "bodies" because there were no bodies.

Did all the witnesses of the bodies lie to the investigators?

A large part of the story of alien bodies begins with Glenn Dennis and his "child-sized caskets" tale. As mentioned above, Dennis' credibility dropped to zero because of the inconsistencies of his story told to multiple interviewers. Many interviewers that actually bought into the alien bodies part of this story.
Who knows his initial motivation to create his tale. But I assume a large part of the continuation of the lie had to do with being the founder of the Roswell Museum.
Again, it's a fact that people lie for one reason or another. The perfect scenario for anyone that wants a little attention or fame and maybe $ is to participate in a story that has a huge following of believers and is difficult to disprove because it's based 100% on other stories.

Why rush things to Wright AF under strictest security if it was just some balloon parts?

I can only reference the following from James McAndrews report where the proper official procedure was followed:

From research, it appears that the wreckage displayed on July 8 consisted of unclassified components of a Mogul balloon assembly. Possibly withheld, if it was indeed recovered, was the AN/CRT-1 Sonabouy, which could have compromised Project Mogul. Although a Sonabouy was not in itself classified, its association with a balloon would have exposed a specific military purpose, an obvious violation of project classification guidelines. A device described in "crash disc" publications as a "giant thermos mug" was allegedly transported from Fort Worth AAF to Wright-Field. This description is consistent with the appearance of an AN/CRT-1 Sonabouy such as was used on flight no. 4. At some point General Ramey decided to forward the material to Wright-Field, home of the AMC (Air Material Command), the appropriate agency to identify one of it's own research devices or a device of unknown origin. If the debris was determined to be from an unknown source, the AMC, T-2, Intelligence or Analysis Division, would contact scientific and/or intelligence analysis in an attempt to discover it's origin. But since balloons, reflectors, and Sonabouys were from an AMC research project, the debris was forwarded to the appropriate division or subdivision... There it was identified by Colonel Duffy, under whose purview Project Mogul operated.

books.google.com...=snippet&q=wright&f=false

originally posted by: Ectoplasm8

PURPLE/PINK MARKINGS ON TAPE AND THE LETTERS

Marcel - Pratt interview 1979:

...some of those they had little markings, a two-color markings as I recall – like Chinese writing to me. Nothing you could make any sense out of."

Source

Brazel in July 1947:

Considerable Scotch tape and some tape with flowers printed upon it had been used in the construction.

Source

_____________________________________________________________________________

Colonel Albert Trakowski:

I remember so clearly when the contractor for these targets was selected, and Jack (Peterson) thought it was the biggest joke in the world that they had to go to a toy manufacturer to make these targets. Then it was an even bigger joke when it turned out that because of wartime scarcities of materials, the tape that they had used to assemble these targets, the reflecting material on the balsa frames, was some kind of a pinkish purple tape with heart and flower designs on it. This was, again, a big flap.

books.google.com...=snippet&q=toy&f=false

Professor Charles Moore Interview:

I do remember every time I prepared one of these targets for flight, I always wondered why these figures were on the tape. There was always a question of why they were there. When this purplish-pink marking on the debris came up, I immediately remember this sort of marking.

books.google.com...=snippet&q=purplish-pink&f=false

Professor Charles Moore Affidavit:

I have specific recollection of reinforcing tape applied to the seams of the reflectors that had some symbols like arcs, flowers, circles, and diamonds. They were pinkish in color.

books.google.com...=onepage&q=arcs&f=false

Note on the revised 307C/AP blueprint, there is a mention of using Scotch brand tape and placement on the seams of the target:

"SHALL BE SCOTCH ACETATE FILM TAPE (?) AS MADE BY MINNESOTA MINING & MFG CO ST. PAUL MINN OR EQUAL."

This has been discussed by others before, but Scotch and other brand acetate tapes came in different printed designs:

If targets were sourced by toy companies to China, it's logical to assume Chinese type characters, geometric designs, or flowers could have similarly been printed on tape as described by witnesses.

________________________________________________________________

LETTERS ON THE DEBRIS

Mac Brazel mentions seeing letters on some of the debris:

There were no words to be found anywhere on the instrument, although there were letters on some of the parts.

On the revised ML307C/AP blueprint, there's a notation for the model number to be printed on the target:

Cus to be fair this has to be put in and nobody has said a word being an intelligence he would have been up to his neck involved in project mogul Intelligence gathering is fine in this is a spa project he would have been heavily involved in project mogul Nobody tries to make this clear because your blows their👽 story out of the water