Plasma jet engines that could take you from the ground to space

Plasma engines have been stuck in the lab for the past decade or so. [: )] And research on them has largely been limited to the idea of propelling satellites once in space.

Berkant Göksel at the Technical University of Berlin and his team now want to fit plasma engines to planes. “We want to develop a system that can operate above an altitude of 30 kilometres where standard jet engines cannot go,” he says. These could even take passengers to the edge of the atmosphere and beyond.

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Plasma jet engines tend to be designed to work in a vacuum or the low pressures found high in the atmosphere, where they would need to carry a gas supply. But now Göksel’s team has tested one that can operate on air at a pressure of one atmosphere... “We are the first to produce fast and powerful plasma jets at ground level,” says Göksel. “These jets of plasma can reach speeds of up to 20 kilometres a second.”

The team used a rapid stream of nanosecond-long electric discharges to fire up the propulsion mixture. A similar technique is used in pulse detonation combustion engines, making them more efficient than standard fuel-powered engines.

It’s the first time anyone has applied pulse detonation to plasma thrusters. Jason Cassibry at the University of Alabama in Huntsville is impressed. “It could greatly extend the range of any aircraft and lower the operational cost,” he says.

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The biggest limitation, though, is the lack of lightweight batteries. A huge amount of electricity is required to generate and sustain the plasma. “An array of thrusters would require a small electrical power plant, which would be impossible to mount on an aircraft with today’s technology[...]”

Göksel is hoping for a breakthrough in compact fusion reactors to power his system.

NewScientist.com, May 17, 2017 - Plasma jet engines that could take you from the ground to space.

In my search for compact fusion reactor news I ran across this article. There seems to be some firsts so up with a thread!

I'm not sure if this idea will... fly but it has subjects near and dear to ATS. Ion engines in smaller satellites has been around for a while. But as stated, used out in the vacuum this is desiring to use a plasma engine to go from ground to space! This is still in development so I doubt you will see one any time soon.

First, the team tested thrusters "80 mm long" that if you wanted to lift and propel a commercial jet would require, "10,000" of them (they guess in the article). They also guess between "100 - 1,000" would be required for a small plane.

Second is the power supply. Which is where upcoming graphene super capacitors would be really useful. I'm not sure flying around with a 200 ton nuclear fusion reactor is a wise idea. But I like the ambitious thinking!

Plasma jet engines, pulse detonation combustion engines, compact fusion reactors, graphene, with a whiff of 'black projects'??!...

Well, what's not to love?!

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

Room temperature superconductors? Miniaturised fusion reactors?

Both are being worked on, I can fathom that concepts have been built in the past too if ATS is anything to go by...

Nice thread! S+F, we don't hear enough about this stuff on ATS I feel, despite some "high profile" threads, or maybe I'm just a hooked idiot?

Either way, thanks for posting. It's very interesting stuff even if I'm a bit thick to fully understand it.

Double Post.

Coool! Thanks for the updates, TEOT... I've come to depend on you as my own personal tech updater.

Tho the crackpot side of me is pretty darned sure we have better powerplants and engines, it is nice when they let some old tech dribble out to us (the mouth-breathers in the white world).

a reply to: Baddogma

The first critical tests for future air-breathing magneto-plasma propulsion systems have been successfully completed. In this regard, it is also the first time that a pinching dense plasma focus discharge could be ignited at one atmosphere and driven in pulse mode using very fast, nanosecond electrostatic excitations to induce self-organized plasma channels for ignition of the propulsive main discharge. Depending on the capacitor voltage (200-600 V) the energy input at one atmosphere varies from 52-320 Joules per pulse corresponding to impulse bits from 1.2-8.0 mNs. Such a new pulsed plasma propulsion system driven with one thousand pulses per second would already have thrust-to-area ratios (50-150 kN/m²) of modern jet engines. An array of thrusters could enable future aircrafts and airships to start from ground and reach altitudes up to 50 km and beyond. The needed high power could be provided by future compact plasma fusion reactors already in development by aerospace companies. The magneto-plasma compressor itself was originally developed by Russian scientists as plasma fusion device and was later miniaturized for supersonic flow control applications.

nextbigfuture.com - Plasma propulsion could become effective and useful for higher altitude aviation, airships and eventually space access.

Baddogma! HI! Notice how nbf could not even say, "Lockheed Martin Skunkworks"?! They went "aerospace co.s" I wonder why that is? They also poo-poo'd all over the compact fusion reactor claiming it will be "100 times bigger" than announced.

I looked at the numbers. They doubled the output and used superconducting magnets at 1/3 the strength! Uh, no wonder it is bigger! You guys at nextbigfuture changed the design! Makes you wonder why they do not like LM?

But they have actual thrust and energy consumption numbers up, so I will share as there are a bunch here that like looking at them to see where the tech stands. And that little tidbit about Russian plasma is interesting.

a reply to: RAY1990

Regular jet engines are beyond most people's grasp. They are such complex machines only a couple companies build them for commercial airliners.

Now extend that to nuclear physics! I get the concepts. I still have some questions. I'm interested in what becomes of this.

BBC.com - The jet engines with 'digital twins'.

A good read on how commercial jet engines work.

a reply to: RAY1990
I would like to see any practical fusion reactor work.

I wonder what would happen if you were five hundred feet behind a jet when it took off? Would those ions disrupt your cells in your body?

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

Seems to me electrical power would be rather less of an issue if it could somehow be transmitted via a wireless process to the vehicle.

Apparently Tesla(allegedly) managed the feat, and there have been as of late, and are ongoing, breakthroughs regarding wireless transmission of power.

If it could be realized and applied to the engine system in question thus solve the power demands the sky really would be the limit.

Maybe Honeywell's new ultra efficient aircraft generators could be useful here for generating the kind of electrical loads required? Hook up a pair to say a couple of fuel cell driven APU's and you might have the generating capacity. You could also have a couple of conventional gas turbine APU's for use at lower altitude to save the fuel cells and therefore extend range.

a reply to: rickymouse

Static electricity,

Over charging one or the other causes problems. Even for the craft itself. New research has a "deflectorless" ion engine. The deflector adds missing ions back to the exhaust stream to keep the ship at neutral charge.

This was just announced today too.

m.phys.org...

originally posted by: Baddogma
Coool! Thanks for the updates, TEOT... I've come to depend on you as my own personal tech updater.

Tho the crackpot side of me is pretty darned sure we have better powerplants and engines, it is nice when they let some old tech dribble out to us (the mouth-breathers in the white world).

the newer Glass based Batteries could fit the bill. they also recharge in minutes Vs hours. And they are from the creator of the lithium battery so no BS.

originally posted by: Nickn3
a reply to: RAY1990
I would like to see any practical fusion reactor work.

You mean like lockheeds? If they didnt care about profit it would be in use now.

Potential military applications?

a reply to: andy06shake

That was Tesla's original idea! Towers sending out "electricity" (microwave waves converted back to electricity) keeping aircraft afloat. Or so they say.

This "breakthrough" is us being informed on the future so we don't freak out and scream "aliens"!!

IMHconspiratorialO. But that may just be me!

Still cool news! They say that there is nothing new under the sun... well today there is!

originally posted by: TEOTWAWKIAIFF
a reply to: rickymouse

Static electricity,

Over charging one or the other causes problems. Even for the craft itself. New research has a "deflectorless" ion engine. The deflector adds missing ions back to the exhaust stream to keep the ship at neutral charge.

This was just announced today too.

m.phys.org...

So, if you swirl those ions into a little tornado while concentrating them, will it create a strong laser beam? Then, maybe delay a couple of strands and cause it to be added to the existing squirrel in pulses, this would create a resonance pulse beam which could tear things to shreds.

Darn, I got to stop thinking about ways to make powerful laser cutters, they can be weaponized.

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

Looking at the equipment, technology and materials of the time Tesla had at his disposal one has to wonder why we cannot completely repeat the process of wireless energy transmission on the same scale through with today materials and technological prowess at our disposal?

Granted it would certainly bring about massive changes regarding the distribution of power, both of the electrical variety and geopolitical, on our Earth but the potential gains and applications would seem to far outweigh the negatives.

Kind of hard to suppress such technology, should it do what it says on the tin.

Tend to agree with you that there is nothing new under the Sun, if humanity can do a thing it generally follows that they will do that thing. Our current understanding of recorded history is simply not extensive or long enough to encompass Mans achievement since we decided to come out of the cave.

Don't MHD engines make huge amounts of electricity, I herd storage was the issue, combine them with plasma?