Toledo Police to given pre-arrest deflection powers. Police pass judgement and sentence.

a reply to: muzzleflash

Yeah the savings of freeing up court costs and court time alone are tremendous. We all know how backed up the judicial system is in this country. Alleviating it of crimes that can be fixed with a bit of education would go a long way positively in many directions. I'm kind of anxious to hear how this works out for Toledo now. I hope good things come from it as I'm sure they aren't the only ones who could benefit from such measures. Not everyone who commits a crime needs to go to jail.

Everyone reading this should print out a copy of the original story (and any supporting info they can find) and take it to their city council and try to find some sponsors to get this same legislation enacted in their local municipalities. This one's worth the effort and I'm sure it will get a lot of support, it's a great idea.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

The purpose of jail pending a conviction is:

1) To keep the public safe from a violent offender who poses a danger to others (and can be shown to be violent).
and
2) To ensure that a defendant with a flight risk is kept detained until they can go into court and face a judge. So offenders with prior Failure to Appears cited on their records have already established a flight risk. Those with no FTA's are entitled to the benefit of a doubt and a chance to show they are responsible.

These are the two primary criteria for bail so I'm just applying it to the 'purpose of jail' altogether, which I think makes sense.

Having a bunch of otherwise decent folks locked up over petty infractions makes no sense and costs the city a fortune and screws up a lot of lives needlessly.

originally posted by: muzzleflash
Having a bunch of otherwise decent folks locked up over petty infractions makes no sense and costs the city a fortune and screws up a lot of lives needlessly.

And then, thanks to our #ty prison system not actually fixing the behavior, the recidivism rate pretty much guarantees if they weren't criminals or dangerous before, they are now.

I respectively disagree, yes the "Perp" is given a choice. The problem with is with the way that option is presented. The way I think it will be presented is be charged with Obstruction a possible 5th degree felony a 6-12 month sentence or take this class. Now even innocent people with choose the class. Oh this is great, people admitting guilt for their freedom because it protects us from the really bad people. Yes, I know it isn't a legal admission of guilt but objectively it's the same thing. People freely giving up their rights, because it's easier not to. This is exactly what TPTB want. You only have the rights you're willing to fight for.

a reply to: jholt5638
These citizens have the right not to say anything at all and let the standard progression of cuffs, backseat, booking, holding cell, maybe bail, maybe wait until initial court date, etc. play out.

That's the point--yet another option that is much better than this one.

Your hypothetical situation about obstruction and admitting guilt is not anywhere in what you linked, so if you have facts behind these claims, great. If not, it's just the pessimistic ramblings of someone who apparently has a pretty big distrust of authority.

a reply to: SlapMonkey
I freely admitted that my hypothetical was my belief. I didn't present it as fact. It sentence for Objection is correct a 5th degree felony has a sentence of 6 to 12 months under Ohio Revised Code.

It's based on actual experience of interacting with the Toledo Police. For example my dad was talking to me when I came to visit. I just got there and he walked up to the drivers window just we just exchanged hellos. Then a TPD cruiser goes I think nothing of it. After just passing us they slam on the brakes slam the cruiser in reverse, stop, and jump out guns drawn.

They grab my dad shove him against the police car, order me out of the car. Asking what going on, who are you, thinking they just got a drug bust. 20 mins later they let us go, no sorry, just a "well you know what it looks like". So based upon that and other experiences I feel the TPD will not as the diversion for first time/small time offenders but more like a scare/intimidation tactic.

It wasn't mentioned in the article but I bet these classes aren't free. Under duress people will chose the option that gets them away from the stressor the quickest. Even if that option costs them money. Even people who would otherwise be found innocent will opt for the class because it is easier and makes everything go away. How is that fair? A person accepting a "diversion class" for a crime they didn't commit because proving their innocence is more work. Which shouldn't be something an American should have to do because we are all innocent until proved otherwise. Maybe I am jumping off the deep end, at the very least it going to turn into another moneymaker for the city.

Finally, touching on its not a punishment, how is it not? They believe they have evidence to charge you with "This" you either take this class or go to jail. Both look like punishments to me one just has a shorter route to the end. Both options are to discourage people from doing said thing and correct behavior

originally posted by: jholt5638
I respectively disagree, yes the "Perp" is given a choice. The problem with is with the way that option is presented. The way I think it will be presented is be charged with Obstruction a possible 5th degree felony a 6-12 month sentence or take this class. Now even innocent people with choose the class. Oh this is great, people admitting guilt for their freedom because it protects us from the really bad people. Yes, I know it isn't a legal admission of guilt but objectively it's the same thing. People freely giving up their rights, because it's easier not to. This is exactly what TPTB want. You only have the rights you're willing to fight for.

I have to disagree here.

If you get arrested and have no $$$ you hardly have any rights at all, and judges can be harsh so there's no telling how they'll treat your case or if they'll even recognize your rights to begin with.

They can play games and keep you locked up for months, or even years, awaiting a trial because you cannot bail out. Then you'll be so desperate to get out that you'd accept a plea deal where you'll say you're guilty even if your not just because claiming innocence will result in a much harsher reality being stuck in jail forever for a fickle jury that might just convict you anyways despite being technically innocent.

Our system is fundamentally broken.
So getting the option to not face charges and take a class is a BLESSING!

a reply to: jholt5638

I understand what you're saying but let's say those cops decided to charge you and your dad with some gibberish that day??

You could sit in jail for months if you cannot afford to bail out. In some cases I've seen guys in jail a year or two just waiting on trial.

That's just to find out if you'll be deemed innocent or not!

Sitting in jail for a year or two for Nothing is the worst punishment of all.
At least a convicted felon knows why he's rotting in prison....

Our bail system is a disaster in most states and it's only starting to change where indigent defendants can get released early on their own recognizance.

Our Justice system, or Injustice system rather, is very broken and unfair. It's always been that way historically back to prehistory, and yes it's better now than it was ever before but it can be so much better.

Offering the alternative of a class instead of charges is such a great step in the right direction, and yes I fully understand how corrupt the system is and that this class could cost 800$ or something crazy like that, that they might be very inflexible with hours etc etc. I get that.

But this is such a huge positive move towards a better tomorrow.

We have so much work to do to "fix" this shattered system - and this shows that it can be done - that we can improve upon things in big ways.

This thread and it's following discussion is so much more important than 95% of the stuff being talked about on this website because it's effects can touch nearly every person's lives in a positive way. We need to share this and get more cities on board.

And don't stop there, there's plenty of more work to be done in all aspects of the system!
We CAN do it!!!

a reply to: jholt5638

Not sure I am fond of this idea. While it might seem, on the surface, a good idea to reduce arrests and jail time, this seems like a poor method of doing so.

First, it's a safe bet people will have to pay for these classes. So, someone that might beat a bad arrest ends up paying.

Second, that person who might beat an arrest is now likely seen as guilty, since they took the class.

Third, seems like coercion. Take a class or get arrested, and could be used to punish people when they don't have enough evidence to actually charge them and successfully prosecute.

originally posted by: jholt5638
a reply to: SlapMonkey
It wasn't mentioned in the article but I bet these classes aren't free. Under duress people will chose the option that gets them away from the stressor the quickest. Even if that option costs them money. Even people who would otherwise be found innocent will opt for the class because it is easier and makes everything go away. How is that fair? A person accepting a "diversion class" for a crime they didn't commit because proving their innocence is more work. Which shouldn't be something an American should have to do because we are all innocent until proved otherwise. Maybe I am jumping off the deep end, at the very least it going to turn into another moneymaker for the city.

Here's the deal--you just went on this paragraph-long diatribe based on an assumption that you're making (that the individual will have to pay for the class). This is why it's difficult to discuss this logically with you, because almost every comment that you make is interspersed with conjecture and biased assumptions.

I wanted to wait until today to look for more sources on this topic, but I still cannot seem to find any, so I'm starting to wonder exactly what the factual truths surrounding this program are. With only there being one source (that I can find) concerning this program, it's not enough to go on to make any logical assumptions as to who pays for the class, what the class consists of, or any of those pertinent issues.

Conjecture does us zero good at the moment.

Finally, touching on its not a punishment, how is it not? They believe they have evidence to charge you with "This" you either take this class or go to jail. Both look like punishments to me one just has a shorter route to the end. Both options are to discourage people from doing said thing and correct behavior

I spend half a decade directly working with federal attorneys and judges, and have spent another half of a decade working directly with federal attorneys and investigatory agents--I fully comprehend the difference between judicial punishments versus options to avoid charges. Even a legal settlement is not a technical admission of guilt, and this option to take a class in order to avoid filed charges against you is light years less like admitting guilt than agreeing to a settlement.

It just feels like you're looking at this issue more with emotion rather than logic and a good understanding of the legal system, so it makes it hard to have a decent discussion about it.