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originally posted by: JoshuaCox
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: JoshuaCox
I think it is all based on relative POV.. Take for example ; "Slavery and slave holders are evil." But everyone's ancestors were slave holders..everyone. So were everyone's ancestors evil?! Through the lenses of the better understanding of modern society, yes all our ancestors were evil. But from their own POV ..not so much.
I am not sure how you think this response shows morality to be relative nor am I sure you completely understand the concept of a moral fact. A moral fact is talking about a indicative moral proposition, or in other words a statement that is true or false independent of your perspective. If our ancestors thought is was morally good to own slaves, then they were mistaken. The very fact that the vast majority of people would call the abolishment of slavery moral progress, but how can something progress if there isn't some outside reference point to which it is progressing towards? I gave you an entire post about why morals are objective and I get maybe five simple assertions with no explanation ? Why quote the whole OP?
I'm on my phone it makes editing quotes unwieldy.
I think things like slavery, genocide , rape, cold blooded murder exc, would all be independent evils.
No matter how you dress it up in revisionist or "for the greater good" history.
What's the saying? "Even if you put a pig in a party dress, it's still a pig."
I don't think the sins of the past and our ancestors were ok just because they didn't know better.
I gave a fairly thorough answer that explained what moral relativism was. It's not about what a person likes or dislikes. It is about a system of rules determined (largely on a subconscious level) by what is, or isn't, threatening to the survival of the individual or the group. Because circumstances change over time, morality changes over time. Some things, however, will be viewed by humans as being immoral regardless of the era because they are core to the standard of how humans evaluate these things.
Human beings have far more complex forebrains than the great apes. Our concepts of morality manifest themselves in far more varied and complex ways. However, research has shown than the precursors of human morality are indeed evidence in the societies of lesser primates. The root of moral behavior seems to be compassion, for others and for the group, which from an evolutionary perspective was critical to the survival of social primates.
I didn't say it was the only one. Yes, there are many. Murder, however, is the most fundamental as it directly impacts the survival of the individual and the group.
No. What an individual decides is moral for the individual does not dictate what human society determines to be moral, either during a specific era or over the entire, varied course of human history.
Sometimes people condone immoral behavior because they feel no moral option exists. Sometimes because they feel threatened, in which case the "in group" may be redefined. Either way it's the same underlying mechanism.
What I'm saying is that all morality is relative. But some moral rules are more absolute than others, based upon how core they are to the survivability of the individual and society.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Greggers
Now I have used your system of ethics to build out an absolute moral atrocity.
I am not sure how this answers my point. My point was that we are prompted by instinct but that there is something else found during introspection that could not be instinct that tells us which impulse we ought to follow.
The shocking thing about morality are not small disagreements about specific values, but the shared values across history and cultures. You still have not realized that what you call "different moral systems" amount to nothing more than disagreements about a particular value. For example, take an Islamic country and the US, in an Islamic country it is considered immodest for a woman to be uncovered in public, in the US it is not. However, neither country values immodesty they simply have different idea about what is modest or immodest. Give me a country or even a village that has a truly different value that they adhere too. Not just a disagreement about what action fits a particular value.
This is what I am talking about, you want to claim moral relativism but you don't want to recognize that in order for morals to be relative it must go to the individual level.
Who decides the behavior was immoral?
That may be your assertion but you don't speak like a relativist.
I don't think the sins of the past and our ancestors were ok just because they didn't know better.
Seemed like a good idea to the Nazis. It may in fact rear its head at some point in the future. However, there were enough people present during that time who disagreed with the notion to war against it, and human history has been thorough in admonishing such a philosophy. Remember, the root of human morality is thought to be COMPASSION, for the individual and the group. The decision to engage in "death by eugenics" is decidedly non-compassionate, and therefore likely to be rejected by most people. History shows this to be the case.
Yeah. It's called human psychology, as informed by biology and environment. Those big forebrains of ours do that work.
In our culture, allowing women to remain uncovered in public is not viewed as being dangerous to society. Clearly, in middle-eastern society, it is.
No it doesn't. Morality is a social construct. It exists because we are social primates. If we were isolationists, morality would be largely irrelevant to our survival.
Everyone. All the time. Throughout history.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
Then how does that make morality relative to POV? What you really meant was that imagining oneself in a different time and different place one might come to see how they could have owned slaves and not thought anything of it. However, would it not still be the case that slavery is bad even though you can imagine a scenario in which a person may not feel guilty or bad for owning a slave. That is what it means to be objective. If the sins of your past ancestors aren't okay even though they didnt know any better, then aren't you affirming that POV isn't a factor?
Evolution does not yield truth friend. Even if it is the case that compassion thru social instinct is an explanation for why the majority of humans feel we should be compassionate it does not follow that being compassionate is truly good.
Again you want to assert something that has a base and is grounded in truth, but with relativism that doesn't fly because relativism isn't about truth its about perspective and preference. Its inescapable.
Yea saying its the brain, without explanation. I am going to need elaboration.
In Islam the covering is about modesty and lust. Its a disagreement about what is modest and causes lust. Neither culture condones lust and immodesty however. That seems to be such a simple point.
Yet we have people in History like Jesus or Gandhi that went against the social construct of the day.
Jesus was hated in his time. You want to define morality as a social construct but I highly doubt you would call these me moral monsters,
but by your moral epistemology that is the conclusion someone truly following the logic would have to draw.
...now you've moved to the individual level when you just denied it...
its obvious everyone doesn't agree so if its relative to everyone depending on time and place, then it really isn't at all...which was the first point of the OP
Morality is a human construct. Human beings decide what is good. Human beings make this decision because they are motivated by evolutionary processes geared toward social interaction, so humans could be successful living in groups. There is no good or evil outside the human mind.
It has nothing to do with truth. It has to do with aggregate human behavior and logic, as motivated by biology and environment.
I evaluate human morality based upon my own relative standards, as informed by both the universal human condition and other conditions unique to my era and circumstances. Just like everyone else has always done, throughout history.
Nope.
We all make individual moral judgments. My point is that they are only impactful in aggregate. Morality is a social construct, and we have individual moral feelings because we are social primates.
Nope. The rules of society are governed by the society, which is rolled up in aggregate from the individual. The rules change over time, but are often slow to change, and some things don't change very much at all. AS I've said multiple times already, the less core morals are far more subject to change.
originally posted by: ThingsThatDontMakeSense
Let's take something easy to understand like a contradiction. A contradiction is false. Therefore working off this precept that a true contradiction isn't possible it should not be conceivable, like amorality having no difference from morality if moral skepticism is true, right? Well I can say a seat is not a seat like Sartre did in Nausea and actually derive a meaning from this:
“I murmur: "It's a seat," a little like an exorcism. But the word stays on my lips: it refuses to go and put itself on the thing. It stays what it is, with its red plush, thousands of little red paws in the air, all still, little dead paws. This enormous belly turned upward, bleeding, inflated—bloated with all its dead paws, this belly floating in this car, in this grey sky, is not a seat. It could just as well be a dead donkey tossed about in the water, floating with the current, belly in the air in a great grey river, a river of floods; and I could be sitting on the donkey's belly, my feet dangling in the clear water.”
― Jean-Paul Sartre, Nausea
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: ThingsThatDontMakeSense
In no way is this a true logical contradiction. All Satre has done is taken some thing A and described it with different words. The words one chooses to describe an object does not actually change the ontological properties of that object. For if what Satre means by seat is something used for sitting there is not contradiction in saying it is a seat and a dead donkey, for being a dead donkey is not incompatible with being a seat. In other words, the two concepts are not mutually exclusive. I think the law of identity and law of non-contradiction are inescapable if we are talking about what can be actualized.
>> I like where you're trying to go with your informal proof, but this falls apart because you are asserting
>> two things (P & Q) are empirically the same making it impossible to distinguish a difference.
Maybe you can elaborate on this, because I don't quite know what you mean.
Without the understanding provided by the existence of a competing category, a person would not be able to understand what it is that is meant when an action is assigned to the category, even in principle. In other words, the claim that an action is not a moral issue is meaningful if and only if moral issues do actually exist.
I was not trying to make the point that if moral skepticism is true, then amorality would have no difference from morality, but rather that the category of moral would be inconceivable. I don't see how you get to the idea that because contradictions cannot be actualized that means we cannot conceive of the category of propositions that are in the form A and Not A as we can easily compare contradictions to non-contradictions, or rather we can compare propositions that are in the form A and Not A with propositions that are not in the form of A and Not A. Neither category is empty here.
More specifically, he realises that the bare existence of things can not be captured by our ways of describing them. When for example he acts on an urge to join some children throwing "pebbles" into the sea he suddenly has to drop his pebble in disgust: it exists. Staring closely at his beer glass in a bar he notes its shape, the name of the brewery written on it and further properties. Even so, something about the glass eludes all these perceptible qualities: the existence of the glass.
Roquentin has discovered that existence cannot be reduced to essence. From no description of a putative object, no matter how complete, can we logically derive the claim that that object exists.
As I said, I think the idea of there being no tautological truth with regards to morality is effectively refuting the ability to define it in any meaningful way.
I think I see the confusion. The point wasn't that we can't conceive of a contradiction, but that we don't accept and have a near impossible time conceiving a contradiction being true.
Since there would be no competing category bashing the skull of a suckling baby for fun wouldn't register as a moral or as even an amoral activity because morality wouldn't be conceivable.
The creatures have no idea they're talking about morality, but they are attempting to approximate on what such a thing might look like. In essence then if moral skepticism is true, amorality is indistinguishable from morality.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Bluesma
Okay but you have totally changed actions, context, and intent in this scenario. That would not be a slave in the same sense of forced labor
Now that all said, correct me if I'm wrong, but the thrust of your argument then is: 0.) If the category of morality doesn't exist there's no way to properly conceive it. 1.) IF morality (P) is no different from amorality (Q) THEN morality and amorality are indistinguishable and can be seen to be the same thing F = False; T = True; P = set [F,F,F,F]; Q = set [F,F,F,F]; P = Q 2.) Therefore if morality (P) and amorality (Q) are the same we should not be able to conceive of morality in terms separate from amorality. Otherwise this would imply the false statement P ≠ Q.
The approach that if some category (P) doesn't exist it would be indistinguishable from the thing it's supposed to juxtapose (Q) and therefore be inconceivable is directly comparable to the idea of a contradiction having some validity or truth because a contradiction is practically the definition of false.
For example, I don't know what axioms you accept as implicitly true, but if "ServantOfTheLamb" means you're Christian or some spiritual variation therein, you very likely accept that there's some moral absolute. This is obviously for the moment unprovable, but there's nothing wrong with having a belief in something as beautiful as the idea of perfection, even if only as an ideal.
Anyhow, the point here is a God would be able to create true contradictions.
Materially this would manifest as 2 fish becoming 4000 (a logical impossibility, 2 ≠ 4000).
Or statements similar to the grand hotel paradox in John 14:2.
Thus if you can conceive of a contradiction being true (meaning 1 fish not being 1 fish p∧¬p, because it's now 2 fishes), then you can conceive of something that doesn't exist in any observable sense as being real. If this becomes something you can imagine you've just disproven the starting premise that impossible things are not conceivable.
Slavery is being possessed as an object to be bought and sold, to do work without being paid. Relative morality means that an action can be good or bad depending upon the context and the individuals involved.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
Which bring me back to my original point you were trying to avoid, when you say Hitler is evil, or some action is evil you are talking about the preferences of some individual or collection of human minds. You are not saying the statement Hitler was evil is true. You aren't making a truth claim and as such you are basically affirming that morals don't actually exist unless you pretend they do.
Morality isn't just about how humans behave. In every other area of life there need not be anything but facts, that is what things are and how things behave. In the realm of morality, however, aside from how people behave you have how people ought to behave.
Ultimately your view reduces to moral skepticism as I have said above.
Yet you seem incapable of understanding that if that is truly your moral framework then morality is an illusion.
You play this game of pretend that some actions are better than others simply because you prefer them.
You are not being very consistent...
Do you ever actually develop your ideas? Just saying that Morality is a social construct doesn't make it so.
You said that but have yet to provide any examples, or reasons for why one ought to agree.
I would argue that if a particular glass was in question at a real bar in reality, that existence would itself be a property of that glass. Existence is a property that refers to a thing existing in the actual world. I could dream of a world in which a glass was perceived with all the same properties of the glass we actually examine in a bar, yet it would lack that one property of existence. I would argue that saying something exist is a way of describing a thing and is an ontological property things have or do not have.
I am still not sure what you mean when you say there is 'no tautological truth with regards to morality.' Are you implying that some tautological truth is a necessary precondition for defining morality?
I am familiar with Hilbert's hotel, and apply that to John 14:2 is a bit of a stretch.
There is nothing logically contradictory about multiplying or copying fish. If the Bible said, two fish equal four thousand fish that would be a different statement from 2 fish were multiplied or copied into four thousand fish.
As you can probably tell I cannot conceive of such a thing. One fish is one fish. You are confusing saying one quantity is another with one quantity becoming another. One implies addition of more fish to a single quantity while the other implies the equality of two quantities of fish.
You are confusing saying one quantity is another with one quantity becoming another.
Pretend? Sorry, that's not my argument at all. I've been very clear about the fact that morality is real. The fact that it is a product of the human mind makes it no less real than your leg.
Human behaviors are real. The impetus for engaging in those behaviors is real
The tendency for human morality to remain consistent at a high level over many human epochs is real and measurable (or at least qualifiable), as well as the tendency for certain moral questions to slide into lesser degrees of relevance over time. None of this is "pretend."
Determining how people ought to behave is merely another behavior.
Because that's not true. Likewise, you seem incapable of understanding that morality is a system of valuing right and wrong that is motivated both by evolutionary biological processes and how those processes relate to the reality of our present day situation and the age in which we find ourselves.
Seems like you're the one playing pretend, as you're imagining that there is something other than that which can be emprically proven to exist that serves as a the true source of morality (at least, that's what it seems like you're arguing, not that I've seen a cogent argument in that regard).
Morality comes from the human mind. The human mind is the only deciding element of morality which can be emprically proven to exist.
Yep. My ideas in this thread have been far more developed than anything you've offered. In fact, I make a pretty good living developing ideas using the written word. I'd say the shortcoming here is your own.
The truth is, everything you're saying in this thread is merely your own expression of your own individual, relative morality. If you had been born in a different time, and exposed to different influences, you'd be making a different argument altogether. You probably wouldn't be right then either.