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originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: TerriblePhoenix
The problem you have is you need to use your words and avoid the Bible because it doesn't back up what you say, it's empty tradition and a corruption of the Spirit of the letter of the Word of God to equate Jesus with God. After all he denies equality himself many times, so you may believe what you say but can't claim the Bible agrees.
I do use my own expression with my own choice of words. If i do not use my own expression and words then I always use the proper quotes and credits. I am not a thief nor try to use persuasive untruths in any of my posts.
I have also posted the biblical source of John the first chapter several times to you but have yet to read your response. If my tradition is empty then the scriptures are also empty as what I have posted is in the scriptures. Do yourself justice and read John the first chapter. In that you will see that Jesus preexisted in the celestial world as the celestial Word and yes He was and is now the only Begotten image and Son of the Most High El.. He is and was God and is the Creator of this Universe and the Celestial creation. That is the mystery that you have as yet not measured in your mind. John 3:16 tells us also that whosoever believes this report will have everlasting life. I hope that one day you will understand.
I am concerned with the fact that Jesus denied being God and the Bible never says he is, says he isn't. When you want to show me the verses you think are proof I will gladly show you they aren't and have been deliberately misinterpreted for over 1500 years.
originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: TerriblePhoenix
I am concerned with the fact that Jesus denied being God and the Bible never says he is, says he isn't. When you want to show me the verses you think are proof I will gladly show you they aren't and have been deliberately misinterpreted for over 1500 years.
Theology has no facts.
Do you need to be told that numerous times? If theology were facts then it would not be facts but there are facts present that are in conjunction with theology such as archeology.
I am weary of telling you to read the apostle John's first chapter. If you are truly interested you will find your answer in that MS.
In that you will see that Jesus preexisted in the celestial world as the celestial Word and yes He was and is now the only Begotten image and Son of the Most High El.. He is and was God and is the Creator of this Universe and the Celestial creation.
I did not say that Jesus was God as He was Jesus but I did say that He was God in His preexistence [as He was the Word before birth in the flesh] and is now [once again ] the Word. If you live long enough you may understand that mystery. As it stands now, you do not understand that mystery.
While you are in your braggadocious state show me your certification of literary accomplishments as a translator of Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew and which Greek you are so well versed in to become a interpreter of liturgy.
I have read your untruths
before and cannot believe you have any understanding of the languages including the Kings English. You seem to have a very confused life.
The Bible book of Revelation mentions a symbolic harlot named “Babylon the Great.” (Revelation 17:5) What does this harlot represent? The evidence points to its being a religious entity.
Ancient Babylon was an extremely religious city, having over 50 temples dedicated to various deities. The Babylonians believed in trinities of gods and an immortal soul that at death would descend to a dark netherworld. There, “human existence beyond the grave is at best only a dismal, wretched reflection of life on earth,” says Funk & Wagnalls New Encyclopedia.
In time, those teachings spread throughout the world. Today they, or modified versions of them, can be found in the religions of Christendom [whereislogic: and the one about an immortal soul can also be found in pretty much every other major religion, religious movement, or philosophical movement, everyone is constantly arguing that when you die, you don't really die, cause something of you survives death, it's just a passage to another kind of life as the Babylonian theologians would explain it, and this "something", usually claimed to be the "soul", you equate and conflate with the divine, a divine nature or even spirit when you use the word "soul" when it sounds like you're referring to "spirit", something that is invisible to human sight. And then you seperate the concepts again by talking about it as if it's not the same, you're all over the place, can't make heads or tails of it. Pardon me for saying it, but you sound like Plato]. Together, these religions make up a major part of the global religious entity Babylon the Great!
“The problem of immortality, we have seen, engaged the serious attention of the Babylonian theologians. . . . Neither the people nor the leaders of religious thought ever faced the possibility of the total annihilation of what once was called into existence. Death was a passage to another kind of life.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria (Boston, 1898), M. Jastrow, Jr., p. 556.
...using concepts borrowed from ancient philosophers in order to explain their beliefs.
The ancient Greek writers applied psy·kheʹ [English: soul] in various ways and were not consistent, their personal and religious philosophies influencing their use of the term. Of Plato, to whose philosophy the common ideas about the English “soul” may be attributed (as is generally acknowledged), it is stated: “While he sometimes speaks of one of [the alleged] three parts of the soul, the ‘intelligible,’ as necessarily immortal, while the other two parts are mortal, he also speaks as if there were two souls in one body, one immortal and divine, the other mortal.”—The Evangelical Quarterly, London, 1931, Vol. III, p. 121, “Thoughts on the Tripartite Theory of Human Nature,” by A. McCaig.
originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: whereislogic
What is your interpretation of Psalm 82:6?
At Psalm 82:1, 6, ʼelo·himʹ is used of men, human judges in Israel. Jesus quoted from this Psalm at John 10:34, 35. They were gods in their capacity as representatives of and spokesmen for Jehovah. Similarly Moses was told that he was to serve as “God” to Aaron and to Pharaoh.—Ex 4:16, ftn; 7:1.
At Psalm 8:5, the angels are also referred to as ʼelo·himʹ, as is confirmed by Paul’s quotation of the passage at Hebrews 2:6-8.
They are called benehʹ ha·ʼElo·himʹ, “sons of God” (KJ); “sons of the true God” (NW), at Genesis 6:2, 4; Job 1:6; 2:1. Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, by Koehler and Baumgartner (1958), page 134, says: “(individual) divine beings, gods.” And page 51 says: “the (single) gods,” and it cites Genesis 6:2; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. Hence, at Psalm 8:5 ʼelo·himʹ is rendered “angels” (LXX); “godlike ones” (NW).
originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: TerriblePhoenix
...you will see that Jesus preexisted in the celestial world...He is and was God ...
I did not say that Jesus was God as He was Jesus but I did say that He was God in His preexistence [as He was the Word before birth in the flesh] and is now [once again ] the Word. If you live long enough you may understand that mystery.
A crucial issue among professed Christians at that time was the relationship between God and Christ. Some among them, particularly those of Greek background, found it difficult to reconcile belief in one God with the role of Jesus as Savior and Redeemer. Praxeas attempted to solve their dilemma by teaching that Jesus was just a different mode of the Father and there was no difference between the Father and the Son. This theory, known as modalism, alleges that God revealed himself “as the Father in Creation and in the giving of the Law, as the Son in Jesus Christ, and as the Holy Spirit after Christ’s ascension.”
Tertullian showed that the Scriptures made a clear distinction between the Father and the Son. After quoting 1 Corinthians 15:27, 28, he reasoned: “He who subjected (all things), and He to whom they were subjected—must necessarily be two different Beings.” Tertullian called attention to Jesus’ own words: “The Father is greater than I am.” (John 14:28) Using portions of the Hebrew Scriptures, such as Psalm 8:5 [whereislogic: see my comment above], he showed how the Bible describes the “inferiority” of the Son. “Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son,” Tertullian concluded. “Inasmuch as He who begets is one, and He who is begotten is another; He, too, who sends is one, and He who is sent is another; and He, again, who makes is one, and He through whom the thing is made is another.”
Tertullian viewed the Son as subordinate to the Father. However, in his attempt to counteract modalism, he went “beyond the things that are written.” (1 Corinthians 4:6) As Tertullian erroneously sought to prove the divinity of Jesus by means of another theory, he coined the formula “one substance in three persons.” Using this concept, he attempted to show that God, his Son, and the holy spirit were three distinct persons existing in one divine substance. Tertullian thus became the first to apply the Latin form of the word “trinity” to the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit.
For example, in the Bible, Jesus is called “the Logos,” meaning God’s “Word,” or Spokesman. (John 1:1-3, 14-18; Revelation 19:11-13) Very early on, this teaching was distorted by Justin, who like a philosopher played on the two possible meanings of the Greek word logos: “word” and “reason.” Christians, he said, received the word in the person of Christ himself. However, logos in the sense of reason is found in every man, including pagans. Thus, he concluded, those who live in harmony with reason are Christians, even those who claimed or were thought to be atheists, like Socrates and others.
Moreover, by forcing the tie between Jesus and the logos of Greek philosophy, which was closely linked with the person of God, the apologists, including Tertullian, embarked on a course that eventually led Christianity to the Trinity dogma.
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8:
RS reads: “Of the Son he says, ‘Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.’” (KJ, NE, TEV, Dy, JB, NAB have similar renderings.) However, NW reads: “But with reference to the Son: ‘God is your throne forever and ever.’” (AT, Mo, TC, By convey the same idea.)
Which rendering is harmonious with the context? The preceding verses say that God is speaking, not that he is being addressed; and the following verse uses the expression “God, thy God,” showing that the one addressed is not the Most High God but is a worshiper of that God. Hebrews 1:8 quotes from Psalm 45:6, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel. Obviously, the Bible writer of this psalm did not think that this human king was Almighty God. Rather, Psalm 45:6, in RS, reads “Your divine throne.” (NE says, “Your throne is like God’s throne.” JP [verse 7]: “Thy throne given of God.”) Solomon, who was possibly the king originally addressed in Psalm 45, was said to sit “upon Jehovah’s throne.” (1 Chron. 29:23, NW) In harmony with the fact that God is the “throne,” or Source and Upholder of Christ’s kingship, Daniel 7:13, 14 and Luke 1:32 show that God confers such authority on him.
Hebrews 1:8, 9 quotes from Psalm 45:6, 7, concerning which the Bible scholar B. F. Westcott states: “The LXX. admits of two renderings: [ho the·osʹ] can be taken as a vocative in both cases (Thy throne, O God, . . . therefore, O God, Thy God . . . ) or it can be taken as the subject (or the predicate) in the first case (God is Thy throne, or Thy throne is God . . . ), and in apposition to [ho the·osʹ sou] in the second case (Therefore God, even Thy God . . . ). . . . It is scarcely possible that [’Elo·himʹ] in the original can be addressed to the king. The presumption therefore is against the belief that [ho the·osʹ] is a vocative in the LXX. Thus on the whole it seems best to adopt in the first clause the rendering: God is Thy throne (or, Thy throne is God), that is ‘Thy kingdom is founded upon God, the immovable Rock.’”—The Epistle to the Hebrews (London, 1889), pp. 25, 26.
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. '
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, [b]lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Colossians 2:6-9 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Psalms 12:6-7 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
Psalms 119:105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Referring to the Word (who became Jesus Christ) as “a god” is consistent with the use of that term in the rest of the Scriptures. For example, at Psalm 82:1-6 human judges in Israel were referred to as “gods” (Hebrew, ’elo·himʹ; Greek, the·oiʹ, at John 10:34) because they were representatives of Jehovah and were to speak his law.