Atheists are right...

Because religious beliefs exist not solely because of morality.

a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

Okay, very valid points.

As to your first question, I just thought about this a few days ago. Firstly, we all know that our time here is limited. In my belief, we have a mission or lesson to learn and once that is done, we move to the next (much more fulfilling) level. So in my estimation, death is scary but also leads to beautiful things. I actually think that my prayers were answered so clearly because my faith was a bit shaky (being honest here) and I needed some blatant messages. I think God is truly loving and wants us all to be close to "him". I also think that some things we request are not necessarily in our best interests, or sometimes prayers are answered in time.. I think we always get what we need, not always what we want.

But that's only my guess. Who really knows?

As to your second question, well I felt happy before but now know a much deeper happiness. I can't quite explain it to another who hasn't felt what I've felt.. I feel a constant "high" now.. a buzzing type vibration in my third eye area. I feel as if my soul is at peace despite the tumoult around.

Thanks for asking! Peace to you.

originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
a reply to: TzarChasm

the same was once said of each of the gods i mentioned previously.

No disagreement there. They became myth, they weren't always myth. Not sure how that's a rebuttal. If the question is why the hyperfocus on Christianity and Islam on ATS, wouldn't it make sense they'd be most often discussed since they are not yet deemed myth my the majority?

its strange to me how we now act as though such things were childish fantasies even as we praise the newest and shiniest of such fantasies.

Absolutely. It's quite humorous to me. In fairness, the OP wasn't doing much praising.

wasnt talking about the op attitude toward abrahamic deities. I was lamenting the disconcerting lack of attention and respect for the old ways and the old gods. older by far than the old testament or quran or any of the documents that inform such works. you are right, these have not been deemed myths...yet. however by the same token that these modern mythologies are taken deadly seriously, might the old gods not also be taken just as seriously and paid just as much respect? there is no reason to ignore such beings that is not also reason to ignore the deities of today. not to mention that a xenophobic totalitarian symbol of white male privilege is appallingly narrow in terms of spirituality, even if it does make half hearted efforts to be condescendingly gracious towards other sects of belief and lifestyle while ignoring all of the scriptures that say basically 90% of all of mankind is royally brutally screwed if this judgment day thing actually does come to pass. we should bring back the old boys and girls club, all the pagan gods and goddesses that were so much more colorful and intriguing. historically, they were pretty weird but at least they were honest about it.

Actually, the bible is science. It has many coded metaphors and symbols that it would take a while to decipher.

It's origin isn't of literal means.

a reply to: luciferslight

So the scriptural claims about how the universe and life came to be is not to be taken literally, but metaphorically, and that's scientific?

originally posted by: dfnj2015
People behave morally without religion then why is religion even necessary? Much of what is in the Bible seems like made up fairy tales with no modern day evidence supporting it. So are atheists right? Since there's no evidence for God's existence and people who don't go to church behave just a moral as those who do go to church whats the point of believing in God?

First off you have to be specific which god you are talking about. There are millions of them. It's like if someone asked you if you know John from America you would say John who, because you have to be specific, there are a lot of Johns. You'd also probably need to name the city and maybe even what road that particular John lives on in order for people to know who you're talking about. "Asking about God is like saying hey do you know John from America?..."

Religion is essentially humanity's first attempt to understand the world. There is no point in religion in this day and age however as we have science and technology now. It has no point and it's bizarre that people still follow it, we have far better tools for understanding the world right now.

Imagine you lived long ago back in a time before wheels were invented. You see some people going around with a cart using square wheels and they are not moving very well or fast. Then someone invents wheels that are circular. Being religious in this day and age is like having circular wheels available to you, seeing everyone around you use them, but then choosing square tires for your vehicle. It makes no sense and is very stupid.

a reply to: zosimov

I actually think that my prayers were answered so clearly because my faith was a bit shaky

So the divine intent wasn't so much to heal those people, it was to strengthen your faith?

Would you then say that's the explanation for why prayers go unanswered? Some people already have such strong faith they don't need the miraculous?

I still see that as very problematic in terms of god's omni-qualities.

sometimes prayers are answered in time.. I think we always get what we need, not always what we want.

Well, prayers going towards people dying of cancer do need to be healed and time is of the essence. That's not really in dispute. I suppose you could say they go to Heaven and the suffering on Earth is trivial.

Who really knows?

Honestly, I don't think anyone does.

well I felt happy before but now know a much deeper happiness.

I feel a constant "high" now.. a buzzing type vibration in my third eye area.

So obviously this type of experiences is described by people of other religions (and spiritual practices). *I assume you're Christian*

While I think that's great, i'm not sure how experiencing this suggests your religion is one of truth. I mean, if it were, why wouldn't this mean Hinduism is true for example? Plenty of meditation/yoga practitioners of that religion speak of deep tranquility and inner awareness and peace.

Perhaps that's not aligned with the OP though. Since this wasn't about truth, but why one would be religious. I think your answers are appropriate for that question. I suppose i'm just off topic and curious.

a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

Again, very valid points.

Why did God heal the people I loved? Well, out of love I presume. Perhaps to bring them closer to him measure by measure (they do not believe). Perhaps to strenghten my beliefs as well. Perhaps also so that I can do this, which is to share the good news at every opportunity to anyone who will listen. (Thank you for listening, even if you're a bit sceptical--it's good to question!) The Bible mentions the unmeasureable divine joy when just one "lost" returns to God.

Other prayers were answered that were for me alone (or so it seemed). I suppose I was also referring to those in my above answer.

I also think that we all become deeper, more compassionate beings through suffering. Learn humility and learn how to comfort others, which is perhaps why some with disease don't get healed, but rather move on to the next plane. I, too, struggle with the vast amount of suffering in this world (I've suffered but not nearly as much as some) but have come to realize I can only speak for my own journey. I have heard of children who have taken on disease with tremendous strength, and whose courage have brought joy (albeit marked with pain) to all around them. I have heard of "rich" kids who were miserable. Suffering and good fortune are sometimes hard to quantify.

I very much enjoy the process of exploring all aspects of faith, though, so thank you for the conversation.

I am one who believes that there are many paths to God (the divine) and that I have chosen one of them.

originally posted by: zosimov
a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

Again, very valid points.

Why did God heal the people I loved? Well, out of love I presume. Perhaps to bring them closer to him measure by measure (they do not believe). Perhaps to strenghten my beliefs as well. Perhaps also so that I can do this, which is to share the good news at every opportunity to anyone who will listen.

(Thank you for listening, even if you're a bit sceptical--it's good to question!) The Bible mentions the unmeasureable divine joy when just one "lost" returns to God.

Other prayers were answered that were for me alone (or so it seemed). I suppose I was also referring to those in my above answer.

I also think that we all become deeper, more compassionate beings through suffering. Learn humility and learn how to comfort others, which is perhaps why some with disease don't get healed, but rather move on to the next plane. I, too, struggle with the vast amount of suffering in this world (I've suffered but not nearly as much as some) but have come to realize I can only speak for my own journey. I have heard of children who have taken on disease with tremendous strength, and have brought joy to all around them. I have heard of "rich" kids who were miserable. Suffering and fortune are hard to quantify.

I very much enjoy the process of exploring all aspects of faith, though, so thank you for the conversation.

I am one who believes that there are many paths to God (the divine) and that I have chosen one of them.

a question of my own...why were your loved ones healed while children are dying of starvation and disease elsewhere? innocent people being raped and shot? families losing jobs or their houses because of crappy luck? they don't deserve help but your friends and family do? Im glad for your fortune but am puzzled by such questions still and i cant just shrug it off with the classic mysterious ways cop out. if there isnt a better answer then (assuming there was indeed a supernatural force involved) that is a problem to me.

a reply to: zosimov

Why did God heal the people I loved? Well, out of love I assume.

Your love for them or god's love for them?

I don't think there is a shortage of love from most that pray for dying family. Is there a shortage of love from god towards people? I'm really struggling to understand why some prayers are allegedly answered and most don't seem to be.

The Bible mentions the unmeasureable divine joy when just one "lost" returns to God.

Interesting. Can you share that verse or name it? Is this a return while living, or a return in the sense of ascension?

we all become deeper, more compassionate beings through suffering.

Absolutely. That's part of the human experience though. Religion not required to experience it, or to learn from it.

there are many paths to God (the divine) and that I chose one of them.

Hypothetically, if you practiced another religion and it brought you further happiness or that 'high feeling' in your 'third eye', would you then choose that religion instead?

a reply to: TzarChasm

There's more to each person's life than can be perceived by a few posts..I have definitely had my share of misfortune. I'm still tremendously grateful for my life.

My experiences have made me stronger. I don't blame God for them.

Evil exists as a result of humans acting according to their free will, which will obviously spill over to the innocent sometimes. I think that once we shed this body, things will become more clear. I don't think we will be plagued by the events of this life for long.

We'll see I guess

originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy

Your love for them or god's love for them?

I meant God's love

I don't think there is a shortage of love from most that pray for dying family. Is there a shortage of love from god towards people? I'm really struggling to understand why some prayers are allegedly answered and most don't seem to be.

I agree with you! I know we all have to die somehow.. I'm honestly not sure how it all ties together. But I do believe that God brings good out of evil. That each person is blessed everyday.

Interesting. Can you share that verse or name it? Is this a return while living, or a return in the sense of ascension?

The parable of the lost sheep, and the prodigal son are two examples

Hypothetically, if you practiced another religion and it brought you further happiness or that 'high feeling' in your 'third eye', would you then choose that religion instead?

Man, I am truly content with Jesus. I don't know what it would take to change my mind.

Thanks again for the good questions and delivered in such a kind way!

There is no "right" there is only false.

God is a concept. It pretty sound logic even today.

Plenty of rebuttals but,...a good philospher even an atheist could show you how.

God, what came first?

How did the first thing come from nothing? No particles no virtual photons, nothing?

Something must exist outside of time as a necessary being and designer. How did the concept of energy form? Or particles?

God does not get erased when your open minded. It doesn't need to be killed for or scorned against but, science has never disproved god. Only falsified passages of Scripture.

I personally am a pandiest sort of believer but if a designer could exist even to design the big bang and walk away it's possible a designer also could have inter -acted with the program.

It's possible the only possible mental capacity a human can hold is bound by the Anthropic principle.

I blieve the participatory Anthropic principle.

a reply to: luthier

Perhaps our physical universe has a mechanism in place that allows itself to be eternal. No beginning and no end. Just as one would describe 'god'. Perhaps this process is entirely without intelligent direction.

Perhaps is the operative word. If we are intellectually honest about the limitations of our knowledge then we should admit certainty cannot be had either way.

Saying 'god' is true is sound logic, is not logical. It presupposes an ability to investigate something we simply don't currently have the means to. The logical position is "I don't know if god exists or not".

science has never disproved god.

Science can't disprove god. Science can't disprove that when we die we become super heroes and villains and exist within the Marvel Universe. Is it a possibility? Sure. Science can only investigate the natural universe. If someone makes a supernatural claim (religions do this) then science can't touch it. Science isn't trying to. It's stupid to ask science to.

Only falsified passages of Scripture.

Rightfully so. Scripture makes truth claims about the known physical world. That's what science can touch.

a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

Your kind of skipping over some philosphy of cosmology.

Can something exist without any conscious observers? If no conscious observers exist, not just something isn't "seen"?

It seems observation is necessary to collapse the waveform of possibility to form reality.

I never said god is true.

I said god as a concept is sound logic as an explanation as far as a necessary being.

I didn't mention supernatural.

The Russel's teapot argument is not truly sound.

a reply to: luthier

If all conscious animals in the universe went extinct would the physical universe still exist? I would say yes. Why would the physical universe end at the moment the last alien puppy dies?

It appears you're invoking an understanding of quantum mechanics that suggest consciousness begets reality. From what I understand this is not the scientific consensus, rather a kind of 'new age' interpretation.

Look, I would love for there to be consciousness at the root of all things, some eternal reality, an afterlife even...

I simply don't see the logic in claiming such certainty, or even assuming it likely to be true.

I never said god is true.

I said god as a concept is sound logic as an explanation as far as a necessary being.

What does necessary being mean if not saying it's true about our reality??...

I didn't mention supernatural.

I know. It's implicit. Anything outside the physical Universe is supernatural by definition. You mentioned it was. "Something must exist outside"

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

Your kind of skipping over some philosphy of cosmology.

Can something exist without any conscious observers? If no conscious observers exist, not just something isn't "seen"?

It seems observation is necessary to collapse the waveform of possibility to form reality.

I never said god is true.

I said god as a concept is sound logic as an explanation as far as a necessary being.

I didn't mention supernatural.

The Russel's teapot argument is not truly sound.

its not sound logic, it simply gives logic an excuse to take a break and wander off and forget about the question.

a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

There is no logic in the certainty. I wasn't claiming that.

However I strongly suggest you examine the double slot test. It's certainly not new age. It's reality.

And fine tuning without the teleological argument attached.

a reply to: luthier

For the sake of argument let's say the science and the philosophy supported the pandeist position.

How would you relate this to the OP?

What benefit would one have living their life under the belief this is true?

a reply to: TzarChasm

How so?

Thinking about what it could be is not lazy.

There are top minds in physics who have proposed a designer correct? Peer reviewed papers on simulated reality?

We can insert memories into animals correct? I believe a mouse.

Could we create an ape to have language memories and advance the species?


It's not unreasonable to think a designer is a possibility for our reality.