Thinking Homosexuality

As a gay dude, or bi because I like both, I can relate to some of that, honestly 99.9% of gays make me sick, no offense to you queens. Im not into being a sissy democrat that lisps, is into Yentl and thinks muslims love me. I do what I want, think how I want. What sucks for me is that no one believes Im gay and constantly asks me why Im not married, that Im too good looking to be single. How many times do I need to repeat myself, how many times do I have to say it. I swear people think Im kidding or joking wtf. Lots of things feel wrong, not being able to act on attraction feels wrong as well though.

a reply to: mouthfullofkefirgrains

You tube clips are not proof neighbour, they are opinion. Especially from a n event called "Faith and Science Conference.
" . That has a clear bias. You clearly don't understand what epigenetics is by this reply of yours. Especially if Bruce Lipton is your source. Oh and I've been to some of his lectures while he visits here
I believe in magic you believe in miracles. Neither of us can prove that they exist.

a reply to: mouthfullofkefirgrains

Joseph Davis and Bruce Lipton are a pair of Bible-thumping evangelicals, who both believe (obviously) that homosexuality is a voluntary perversion worthy of eternal damnation.

Bruce Lipton in particular is a noted crank who, uniquely in the scientific world, believes that you can alter your own DNA by the power of prayer. So presumably as well as curing yourself from being gay, you can turn into an anteater if you just ask God nicely enough.

a reply to: mouthfullofkefirgrains

"Hey Bra"? Really? More cultural appropriation it seems

I am not being holier than tho. I am a Pagan neighbor, and you don't understand my practices.

a reply to: mouthfullofkefirgrains

You missed the point. "Looking deeper" does not increase understanding. As evidenced by the number of muppets who say "look depper" grashopper, to seem infortmed

With that, I am out of the lab, and off home.

a reply to: Astrocyte "set on default-"

a reply to: Noinden

I have to go, bra… sorry we had to cross swords on the topic of homosexuality…. I would have liked to discuss some of your experiences with shamanism…
post some links or anecdotes here or start a thread on it and I will check back…

a reply to: Teikiatsu

You are welcome to your opinion.

Very generous of you. And in my opinion, you are being rather generous to yourself when you say...

As a biologist, I...

Since what you are, in fact, is a quality control technician who works in a commercial biology lab.

I work in Quality Control and lately my job has pushed me into the regulatory and bioinformatics realm. A major part of my job is to make sure we are sending quality product out that meets or exceeds the specifications the government and company has put in place, as well a making sure our documentation is inspection-ready and our computerized systems are sending the right samples to the right labs. From your own introductory thread

Now we’ve got that out of the way...

I would bet *for* the behavior as some type of survival/reproductive strategy if it is observed across the entire species. I would bet *against* the behavior as survival if it observed in a single animal or small group.

So the ‘biologist’ is a bit hazy about how natural selection works, then. Populations are always evolving, with traits spreading through them. Even traits that confer fitness take time to become widespread. There are also plenty of traits that are selectively neutral, which have varying frequencies within populations that are unrelated to any selective value.

This has led to multiple trips to the vet...

What a revolting little story. The fact that you chose it to illustrate your point suggests a prurient and unhealthy attitude towards sex in general. It also reinforces the conclusion that you are no biologist. Your cat isn’t masturbating, she has an itch.

originally posted by: mouthfullofkefirgrains
...

Actually. No. Just no. If I've ever seen a post without a single ounce of truth in it, that would be it.

originally posted by: mouthfullofkefirgrains
according the psychologists, many gays are gay because they were abused as children

Who are these "psychologists"? Links? References?

The National Health and Social Life Survey (NHSLS) 1.51% of the population of the US identify as GLBT, whereas other studies put this figure as high as 8% (Fay et al, 1989). However, statistics for people abused in childhood are significantly higher that this, with reliable estimates given for child sexual abuse to be 16% for males and 27% for females in the USA (NRCCSA, 1994).

Therefore, if there is a causal link between childhood sexual abuse and identifying as GLBT later in life, then why aren’t the figures for the number of GLBT people in the population reflected by the abuse statistics? There are significantly more cases of sexual abuse than there are people that identify as GLBT (Macmillan, 1997), and furthermore, the vast majority of persons sexually abused as children are heterosexual (Keith, 1991).

In addition to this, virtually all statistics agree that females are more likely to be sexually abused in childhood than males are - and yet, and yet there are proportionally more men that identify as being gay than there are women who identify as lesbian (Hite, 1991; Janus, 1993, Jefferson, 2001).
The Problem with the Belief that Child Sexual Abuse

And so forth. There have been many, many studies on this topic. With just as many contrasting results. It cannot be stated as a fact, and we will never get a 100% accurate or scientific result because
1. Too many people will hide the fact that they are homosexual and live heterosexual lifestyles out of fear of being rejected by society.
2. Too many people would never admit they were abused or can't remember they were abused.

So stating that "many gays are gay because they were abused as children" is not true. Many people were abused and are not gay.

originally posted by: mouthfullofkefirgrains
there was a 50% success rate at helping gays who wanted to turn straight, do so…

No. Just no. Source? Links? References?
You can't turn someone straight or gay or trans or whatever flavor of sexuality you would like to enter in that sentence. It's complete and utter BS.

There is no, zero, zip, nada scientific evidence that Conversion therapy works. As a matter of fact it can be considered harmful and is even illegal in many places.

5 Things You Should Know About Gay Conversion Therapy

And those poor teenagers that are victims of "pray the gay away" camps aren't suddenly straight. They simply pretend to be straight in order to be accepted by their families and/or society. They will be living unhappy lives of lies until they finally break for better or worse.

originally posted by: mouthfullofkefirgrains
the basics about homosexuality appear to be suppressed by those who like being gay…

What does that even mean? What complete and utter nonsense.

originally posted by: mouthfullofkefirgrains
youtube: HOMOSEXUALITY_101; 2011 NARTH Conference Dr. Nicholas Cummings

You saw it on YouTube? Well why didn't you say so in the first place. It must be true then.

Most of the males on my mother's side trend to have homosexuality, none on father's. My two brothers and I, my uncle, my great uncle

I had no choice in this matter.

No child abuse.

There was no conditioning. My mother gave proper heterosexuality sex ed when I was young. This obviously created confusion when I never started getting into girls.

Hopefully this avoids that feedback loop you are fearing; I'm trying to make a positive post to help you go deeper.

originally posted by: mouthfullofkefirgrains
why is homosexuality so prevalent among powerful elites, for example? why is it being promoted so much right now?
why is it so prevalent among celebrities?

Is it? Or, are you only perceiving it that way because those people are more in the mass/social media than your average, normal gay person? I suspect that is the real reason. I don't think there is a gay agenda and I don't think gay media or gay people in positions of power will affect peoples' orientation (if that's what you're getting at).

Now, if gay people in positions of power use that power to influence laws to 'take away' liberty or freedom from others - then that's wrong. But that isn't a slight against gay people - that's against anyone who is in power and uses their own personal opinion as a mandate for the masses. That's the same for any abuse of power.

where do you see society going in the coming years? my guess is, homosexual stocks will rise…

What does that mean? Betting on 'gay' will grant you success? I'm not sure I follow. Are you suggesting it's a quantitative 'trend' ?. In my reading, homosexuality has been around for a very long time - key point, the silly religious tomes (ie: bible) specifically call it out. So it isn't new or trendy.

originally posted by: mouthfullofkefirgrains
there was a 50% success rate at helping gays who wanted to turn straight, do so…

Right. Of course it was, because, you can 'cure' someone of a biological, genetic setting through psychological therapy and counselling.

I always found smelling my own feces as an excellent means of therapy. When I had anxiety and sleeping issues years ago, I am ever so grateful my therapist suggested bottling up my poo and sniffing it when I felt anxiious and stressed. Worked a treat!

originally posted by: noonebutme

originally posted by: mouthfullofkefirgrains
there was a 50% success rate at helping gays who wanted to turn straight, do so…

Right. Of course it was, because, you can 'cure' someone of a biological, genetic setting through psychological therapy and counselling.

I always found smelling my own feces as an excellent means of therapy. When I had anxiety and sleeping issues years ago, I am ever so grateful my therapist suggested bottling up my poo and sniffing it when I felt anxiious and stressed. Worked a treat!

Actually, that only helped 10%.

The other 40% make up the Gay Suicide rate.

Honestly the OP here seems to be wrestling with these ideas too much and I can only conclude you're struggling to climb out the closet. Sorry if I am wrong but it seems you need justification for something and you've tried every other avenue.

This is a complicated subject, one that we certainly need to learn more about. There are many forms of homosexuality, from casual sexual desire only to emotionally seeking a partner of the same sex and forsaking the opposite sex, then it gets even further complicated with transsexuals at the end of the spectrum, people who will find themselves stuck in the wrong body and identifies themselves with the opposite sex.

Of course from a strict biological perspective homosexuality makes no sense other than casual sexual exploration at a younger age, the point of adult sex is reproduction and as such homosexuality is not natures way, if homosexuality was the norm the species could become extinct. But humans especially are so much more than just a biological machine with instincts, we have a complicated mind and then we could also consider a spiritual dimension affecting us, concepts like reincarnation and past lives is not something science currently considers but being a student of the spiritual i certainly do, not only in regards to sexuality but stuff like child prodigies, psychopaths etc.

My current theory is that homosexuality is sometimes due the mind alone, social conditioning and subtle things affecting the mind, especially at a young age when the brain is sensitive and developing. It has been observed on some animals in captivity that they will engange in homosexual acts whereas this won't happen in their natural wild environment. Perhaps when we live to close to each other, in dense urbanized areas far away from nature the same could be happening to some of us? I also believe phornography has a role to play when adults suddenly develop a taste for homosexual acts.
fightthenewdrug.org...

Then we could also consider environmental poisoning affecting hormones, high estrogen levels in food, cow milk etc feminizing males.

a reply to: Astrocyte

people go with whoeever they are attracted too, and providng the gae limit is legal who cares. There does nto need to be any Metaphysics based on this. Your born and you like what you like, even if others dont as a norm.

a reply to: beeeyotch

hey i get you, i have very close mates that are gay, im stright an married but they are my best mates. Again like what you say, they dont look gay they dont act gay and they are deffo not sissies. Just some people enjoy a guys company or just enjoy c0ck or both.

i dont like the fact that people feel they have to act gay just becasue they are gay. If you grow up acting feminine then its ok, but people change their perosnaity to fit the "gay" bracket which i find silly. Just be yourself and have fun with whoever.

a reply to: Omnik

Very interesting. Perhaps to some extent this matrix we live in is a contributing factor to this. Perhaps instinctively some of us realise the prison our minds are in and this then has the same effect. I don't know.

a reply to: Gemwolf

Thanks for expressing very salient points which I concur. Male/Female dichotomy only exists at the physical level. But they does not exist as disparate polar opposites, at the psychological and biochemical levels. Everyone has both male and female hormones and humans normally have two brains ( left [F] and right [M] ), plus the central synthesizing unit). So psychologically, we are androgynous while the existence of both male and female hormones in our body makes us fundamentally bisexual, like it or not. So your point about "There are a hundred variants in-between" is spot on.

In our psychology class at Leicester University, we call it a "cline" [gradual differentiation, not discrete polar differentiation]. So, on the chart are depicted the 2 axes, one for male and one for female, and we can chart all the values between these two extreme poles of F & M.

On one axis, we have, for example,
[5% M + 95% F], [10% M + 90% F], [15% M + 85% F]... etc,

while, at the other axis, we have

[5% F + 95% M], [10% F + 90% M], [15% F + 85% M]... etc.

And both meet at the central axis where a midpoint of [45%M + 45% F] obtains.

Note that it's impossible to have [100% M + 0% F] or [100% F + 0% M] at the biochemical or psychological level - these polar extremes can only exist hypothetically/theoretically.

In Chinese medicine [TCM], the pairs of organs - 2 kidneys, 2 lungs, 2 eyes, 2 nostrils, etc. are differentiated into male/female and all therapies pertaining to them are differentiated accordingly. The whole body is in fact differentiated in this way, and the twin governing forces [qi or ki] are differentiated as yin-yang, female-male. In Hindu medicine and religion, the left side of the body is classified as female in contrast to the right [male] side or masculine pole.

At the metaphysical level, "Create your own reality...Scholar", points out, in another ATS post elsewhere, that homosexuality relates to "reincarnation", without explaining or elaborating it. One explanation for this has been offered before elsewhere: This is that homosexuality represents the intermediate, transitional phase. The transition from male to female or vice versa is cushioned by the intermediate phase, esp if this is happening for the first time. Hence the confusion and long time required to settle into the new sexual/gender identity.

Of course the gender [psychological identity] confusion adds further complexity esp. if the person undergoing the shift has had very dramatic, traumatic past life issues in the previous personalities. I know of a boy who insisted on wearing a dress at a very young age because his past life memories of being female severely impacted the present life. The adjustments can be tough and rough, often made worse by cultural and religious dogmas, injunctions that are not based on true insight and a genuine understanding of the process of transition. So the tip of 'live and let live' is a genuine plea to reverse the inhuman and misguided treatment of these evolving souls.

Ultimately, the issues surrounding sexual or gender identity has to be transcended by each and everyone, in order to return to HOME ground. One spiritual master [male] who has transcended this identity has expressed or taught it in 4 evolutionary stages of self-realization in consciousness. This you can see below, described in gradual degrees upwards, starting from the bottom:

a. I am male
b. I am female [too]
c. I am both male and female [androgynous/bisexual]
[what happens here is integration of both male and female as alluded to in the Christian gospel ... "if your eye be SINGLE..."

d. I am neither male nor female [liberated/enlightened state/our true nature - returning HOME]

Take a look at some of the depiction of gods and goddesses: Zeus statues with breasts. Goddess Venus with a beard. A feminine picture of the Buddha. Goddess Guan Yin with a mustache.

What the author of each of the above is saying is this: These personalities have finally achieved the glorious state of tempering and balancing their male-female energies and are thus ready to return HOME!! In the literature, this state is sometimes described in these terms: 'becoming whole - a holy state', a state of oneness, a state of universal love - the penultimate stage/state. The next [ultimate] stage that follows is:

The PEACE that surpasses all understanding [= HOME]

The whole purpose of life is to discover one's true identity. Hence the very first lesson for the neophyte on the path of occultism is "Know yourself". Without discovering one's true identity, one will continue to suffer the rounds of rebirth, etc. Now the cosmic joke in this path of self discovery is that the answer to "Know yourself" can only be attained by embarking on the paradoxical journey to "Forget yourself", and it is this path of "forgetting oneself" that constitutes the second lesson!!

"The desire and the pursuit of the whole is called Love." - Plato

"For this is the journey that men make: to find themselves. If they fail in this, it doesn't matter much else what they find." - James Michener.

"The moment you know who you are, all the secrets of the world will be an open book to you." - Sri Chinmoy.

originally posted by: Omnik
...
My current theory is that homosexuality is sometimes due the mind alone, social conditioning and subtle things affecting the mind, especially at a young age when the brain is sensitive and developing. It has been observed on some animals in captivity that they will engange in homosexual acts whereas this won't happen in their natural wild environment. Perhaps when we live to close to each other, in dense urbanized areas far away from nature the same could be happening to some of us? I also believe phornography has a role to play when adults suddenly develop a taste for homosexual acts.
fightthenewdrug.org...

I'm going to disagree with you on this one. Homosexuality has been observed throughout the ages throughout all societies.

There are thousands of examples. These include occurrences in ancient Egypt (see Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep), Ancient Greece (well known history), Ancient Rome (a well documented history), Asia (see the works of Wang Shunu and the Buddhist Laws of Manu), Europe (where to begin?), Native American Indians (see Two-Spirit people), South America (see Berdache) - and so on. But you get the idea. Different societies and cultures with no contact between them, yet homosexuality occurred and in most of these ancient cultures homosexual people were respected or at the very least their sexuality was a non-issue. Interesting enough if you read the history of the different ancient cultures, you'll notice that homosexuality only became "bad" when the first Christians arrived on the scene.

Social conditioning? As recent as 10-20 years ago everyone grew up with the notion that homosexuality is "bad" or "unacceptable", i.e. social conditioning would most definitely not have played a role with anyone older than 20 years. Moving on to the Middle-East. Where to this day homosexuality is NOT acceptable and in many countries/regions it means death. People grow up with the knowledge that if you are gay YOU WILL DIE! I.e. there is NO pro-gay social or media "programming" whatsoever. And yet, there are gay people. And they risk death every time they fall in love with someone of the same sex. Imagine that. Facing a public execution just because you fall in love... And anyone that has been in love knows that you will gladly face death if that means you can be with the person you love for just 5 minutes...

And all of the above excludes the presence of pornography. Will watching gay porn make a straight person go gay? (With reference to rule 34 of the internet) Let's see: You can find all kinds of porn - with stuff like bestiality, necrophilia, lemon parties, BDSM, voyeurism, etc. as popular categories. I've been on the Internet long enough to have seen it all. I don't want to be intimate with an animal, a dead body or a granny. If you come near me with a whip I will kick your ass. I am not inclined to do anything nude in public... So. No. If something (like gay pornography) turns you on, then you were already into it. You're not straight, accidentally happen upon two dudes and then decide it's something you want to try. Either you are sexually stimulated by something or you are not. Watching pornography on said topic is not going to change your sexuality. (See Conversion therapy).

originally posted by: Omnik
Then we could also consider environmental poisoning affecting hormones, like high estrogen levels in food, cow milk etc feminizing males.

Why would some some siblings growing up in exactly the same house, environment, food source, parents, etc. not all be gay?

It is a tough cookie. Even the twins studies have been used both for and against the nurture vs nature argument. There has been countless studies on the matter ("cause" of homosexuality), and we still don't have a definitive answer.

Perhaps the question should be - why is there such a question? Do we care why some people are left-handed and others right-handed? Should there be one study after the other to try and determine the "cause"? Shouldn't we be studying cancer and how to beat it? You know something that is actually causing millions of human deaths instead of something that has no effect on other people?