Thinking Homosexuality

originally posted by: noonebutme

Right. Of course it was, because, you can 'cure' someone of a biological, genetic setting through psychological therapy and counselling.

Yet no genetic cause or correlate has ever been found, so how can you presume it to be a genetic setting?

a reply to: cooperton

Well, that's simple enough - genes determine everything from eye color to cancer vulnerability, so it makes sense to presume (n.b.) that genes influence (n.b.) sexuality too. Even if a precise genetic explanation has not yet been found.

It's a complex area of research, and the jury is still out, but the current thinking is that the 'cause' is a combination of genes, hormonal influences in the womb, and differences in brain architecture (i.e., neurological variation). Any one of these, or even any two, without the other/s might have different effects or even no effect.

That is to say, a set of circumstances that is common enough but doesn't always (or mostly) occur, which is why it's so difficult to pin them all down at once without decades of in-field testing starting from conception and continuing through the lifespan of all subjects. G-d knows who on Earth would provide the funding, for a start.

PS: I hate to seem like a kiss-a## but that was some top mod interjection upthread.

originally posted by: cooperton
Yet no genetic cause or correlate has ever been found, so how can you presume it to be a genetic setting?

From experience. I grew up around many gay people, had a gay best friend for most of my young life. I have never had an inclination to try, nor do I find men sexual arousing or could imagine an emotional, non-platonic relationship from a man.

There's also some interesting articles, like this one here which imply there are links between sexual orientation and one's genetics. Or here which suggest chemical changes to DNA could have an impact.

So, yes - there ARE some interesting links to suggest homosexuality is genetic. My personal opinion is, yes, it is. It isn't learned. My own life experience tells me that. Plus, with the number of failed relationships in my life, you'd think I would have said, 'Sod it, I'll have a go with men'. Didn't happen. Why? I don't find men attractive like I find women.

What about the animal kingdom, where there are plenty of documentation, videoed evidence of animals engaging in homosexual activity. Where did they 'learn' that from? Which social group influenced them to be 'gay'?

most ρeoρIe become gay after a Iifetime of conditioning?!?! My God man quick! What the heck are you doing here?? Run and teII the ρrofessionaIs before they mess υρ more cuz those thiIIy goothes are, by majority, out there saying the most reIiabIe evidence says sexuaI orientation is more than 9Ο% determined in utero and most IikeIy a maternaIIy ρassed gene.

a reply to: AlexandrosTheGreat

To be excruciatingly even-handed about it, I can see where some people get the 'conditioning' idea.

Historically, in the West, most people didn't become aware of their own homosexuality until well into adulthood. Those that realised early on wisely kept quiet.

In either case, the common 'road to awakening' comes by entering into (or submersing oneself in) the local gay subculture. Perhaps hesitantly at first, dipping a toe so to speak. Then with increaseing confidence for most (but not all) gay people, who are only too glad to find a welcoming committee after years of alienation. (Some gay people decide they don't like the gay subculture very much, which is fair enough, it's not like they'll tear up your membership card).

So to an outside observer, who doesn't understand at all what's really going on, you could sort of see how it might appear that formerly heterosexual people were 'turned gay' by prolonged and intense contact with existing 'colonies' of gay people.

It's a stupid idea, but it does make a certain dimwitted sense, in the same way that Mediaeval people simply accepted that geese came from barnacles because they were similar in shape (true story).

Fortunately, times move on.

a reply to: MamaJ

This is amusing.. because I have a strict no homosexuality policy when I incarnate.. I have been women but I could never ever, ever be gay. In all of my lives I have never been gay even once.

What does that say about your theory? I would agree that there's a metaphysical component to our sexual behaviour though. I know my preferences and where I got them.

originally posted by: noonebutme
So, yes - there ARE some interesting links to suggest homosexuality is genetic. My personal opinion is, yes, it is. It isn't learned. My own life experience tells me that. Plus, with the number of failed relationships in my life, you'd think I would have said, 'Sod it, I'll have a go with men'. Didn't happen. Why? I don't find men attractive like I find women.

Depends on how you mean "learned". Cultural influences can make homosexuality an accepted part of society, we know that from history.

Tbh this discussion is such a big minefield that it's almost impossible to argue anything lol, but my opinion is simple: it's a little bit of everything. I also believe that the brain can get wired wrong to identify you with the "wrong" sex. But maybe someone just felt like doing something new and found out they liked it. Or maybe they just happened to like the other person no matter their sex. After all, we're humans. We got free will to do what we enjoy. Anyone that reject that idea oppose humanity.

a reply to: mouthfullofkefirgrains

Why exactly would I discuss my spiritual practices with you again?

a reply to: noonebutme

Unless its cancer who here wants a "50% success rate" for a treatment? Lets not even get into the fact that gay conversion therapy is generally considered to be abuse these days.

mouthfullofkefirgrains seems stuck on the religious stigma of homosexuality, yet tells others to "enter the 21st century"

Homosexuality exists in the entire animal kingdom, even down to fruit flies - this is actual science. They have found that homosexual males, across all species, who happen to have female offspring through regular mating, despite their homosexual tendencies, tend to have female offspring that is exponentially more fertile then it's female peers born from a non-homosexual male father. NOTHING in the universe is a mistake, to try and argue that anything within this universe is, is akin to yelling at the sky that it's not blue.

I suggest you run far away from the dogmatic preconceptions you have, they strangle your ability to think fluidly.

End of discussion.

a reply to: Invicid

Several of us have pointed this out, to be told "oh no that is just mimicking homosexuality". Don't you love shifting goal posts?

originally posted by: noonebutme

So, yes - there ARE some interesting links to suggest homosexuality is genetic. My personal opinion is, yes, it is. It isn't learned.

A genetic link doesn't mean behavior is irrelevant. As stated above by audubon it's almost definitely a mixture of both. Thanks for those links by the way, when I was in school there was no genetic correlation.. only a neuroanatomical anomaly in the anterior hypothalamus: Link. Homosexual males and women have on average a anterior hypothalamus that is half the size of a heterosexual male - the anterior hypothalamus is involved with hormones.

In my own experience with friends, I honestly think every person to some degree has some homosexual tendencies which are often repressed and ignored due to societal taboos. This does not mean I think homosexuality is mentally normal. I have had "gay" friends who end up marrying a wife. I have heterosexual friends who exhibit homosexual tendencies... to me, it seems psychological.

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: Invicid

Several of us have pointed this out, to be told "oh no that is just mimicking homosexuality". Don't you love shifting goal posts?

Homosexuality, like domestication and other related "behaviors and tendencies" are found within DNA. We KNOW that there are homosexual populations across the entire animal kingdom, from the smallest of insects, to the largest of mammals. The universe, does not make mistakes, whether we can understand it's reasoning is exclusive from it's purpose, because there always is one.

Didn't realize that many brought this up already. Truly sad that people don't realize how closed and irrational dogma has made them.

Here's a better question for several folks on this thread ... why do you care?

If you're not gay (or bi) or repressing gay (or bi) feelings ... what does it matter what we're doing?

We're here in the world with you, like it or not. Sometimes you're going to be subjected to our presence and yes, even our culture, the same way "we" have been subjected to purely heteronormative BS for centuries.

There's one too many Freudian references associated with "having it shoved down your throat" to imply that you're neutral on the issue ... and if your religion is against it ... well, don't do anything gay (or bi).

Simple.

originally posted by: Invicid

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: Invicid

Several of us have pointed this out, to be told "oh no that is just mimicking homosexuality". Don't you love shifting goal posts?

Homosexuality, like domestication and other related "behaviors and tendencies" are found within DNA. We KNOW that there are homosexual populations across the entire animal kingdom, from the smallest of insects, to the largest of mammals. The universe, does not make mistakes, whether we can understand it's reasoning is exclusive from it's purpose, because there always is one.

Didn't realize that many brought this up already. Truly sad that people don't realize how closed and irrational dogma has made them.

EVERYTHING is based in genetics. PERIOD. Even environmental circumstances lead to physical changes in DNA! Don't get hoodwinked!

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Here's a better question for several folks on this thread ... why do you care?

If you're not gay (or bi) or repressing gay (or bi) feelings ... what does it matter what we're doing?

We're here in the world with you, like it or not. Sometimes you're going to be subjected to our presence and yes, even our culture, the same way "we" have been subjected to purely heteronormative BS for centuries.

There's one too many Freudian references associated with "having it shoved down your throat" to imply that you're neutral on the issue ... and if your religion is against it ... well, don't do anything gay (or bi).

Simple.

For those who believe it is a psychological disorder, they do not want such behavior being condoned by the media/nation. Whereas the counter-argument would be, as long as it is not hurting others it does not matter.

a reply to: Invicid

Perhaps one person will say it, and one of them will listen. Ignorance will sadly never die out, unlike smallpox.

a reply to: Invicid

Well yeah that is how epigenetics tends to work

a reply to: cooperton

Out of curiosity, what evidence is there that "it" is a psychological disorder. Because the majority of the reasons for calling sexual behavior that is indeed .... religious convictions, not objective evidence.

originally posted by: Gemwolf
And yet, there are gay people. And they risk death every time they fall in love with someone of the same sex. Imagine that. Facing a public execution just because you fall in love... And anyone that has been in love knows that you will gladly face death if that means you can be with the person you love for just 5 minutes...

Well, i wrote '' sometimes'', i certainly do not have the answer as to why people become gay.

originally posted by: GemwolfAnd all of the above excludes the presence of pornography. Will watching gay porn make a straight person go gay? (With reference to rule 34 of the internet) Let's see: You can find all kinds of porn - with stuff like bestiality, necrophilia, lemon parties, BDSM, voyeurism, etc. as popular categories. I've been on the Internet long enough to have seen it all. I don't want to be intimate with an animal, a dead body or a granny. If you come near me with a whip I will kick your ass. I am not inclined to do anything nude in public... So. No. If something (like gay pornography) turns you on, then you were already into it. You're not straight, accidentally happen upon two dudes and then decide it's something you want to try. Either you are sexually stimulated by something or you are not. Watching pornography on said topic is not going to change your sexuality. (See Conversion therapy).

''Will watching gay porn make a straight person go gay?'' Definitely not, but that's not how porn affects people, most will start watching ''normal'' things and then gradually move on to more ''hardcore'' material and sometimes even perversions like some of the nasty stuff you've listed. The link explains how pornography alters the brain and why addiction is a danger. I've talked to several people who have developed a homosexual oriented fetish(among other things) due to their porn consumption over the years but i don't think pornography can turn a heterosexual person a ''real'' gay, and definitely not emotionally.

originally posted by: GemwolfWhy would some some siblings growing up in exactly the same house, environment, food source, parents, etc. not all be gay?

Perhaps the question should be - why is there such a question? Do we care why some people are left-handed and others right-handed? Should there be one study after the other to try and determine the "cause"? Shouldn't we be studying cancer and how to beat it? You know something that is actually causing millions of human deaths instead of something that has no effect on other people?

It's a good question, i actually had transsexuals in mind, currently there are some scientists who thinks this could be the explanation to the increase of transsexual people around the world, unknown environmental poisons.

I suppose humans are inquisitive creatures by nature? My interest in the topic is metaphysical.