Personal Integrity

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: Aristotelian1

Plenty of threads where that's already been done. There's also plenty of threads with evidence of Scientology being a cult.

A simple search will find them.

Like I said, just say the word and we'll settle the score for good. Just say the word and there will be a 1 on 1 debate thread. You and me.

a reply to: Aristotelian1

Why do I need to do that? Going Clear is all the argument anyone needs. Everything else is just a bonus. That kind of makes a thread with us two debating pointless.

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: Aristotelian1

Why do I need to do that? Going Clear is all the argument anyone needs. Everything else is just a bonus. That kind of makes a thread with us two debating pointless.

Alright man, then I'm done communicating with you. Have a nice life(and I sincerely mean that.)

a reply to: Aristotelian1

Does that mean me too? I am still wondering of any benefits or problems that have occurred in your practice of implementation of it.

No rush...

What is true for you is what you have observed yourself. And when you lose that, you have lost everything.

So subjective measurement from one person is worth more than objective truth even if the senses are badly calibrated?

I get that subjective view (brainwashing and self deceit to not measure) is hard to remove and that awareness and continuous measurement is good for removing subjective bias.

But you can listen to other people and incorporate their experience and question what kind or reality exists for this experience to manifest. Right now some people are trying to explain consciousness with Quantum physics and with this model out of body, energetic body states, low level synchronicity/telepathy is not impossible.

If I know one of these experience personally and have a theory on how reality can implement should I say out of body is impossible since I have not myself done it yet.

Is it not insane to say things cannot happen just because I have not done it. In that case skydiving do not exists and it is impossible to do, since I have not done it and all people who say they have skydived are mentally insane and are self deceiving themselves. Just because you have not measured and become aware of something do not mean it is not real. It means you have a frontier you have not experienced and have not measured yet.

And I am not interested in Scientology to become more aware. There are plenty of awareness increasing ideas that are free for instance Buddhism, Taoism and Jain that are more worthwhile.

I don't think the description in the OP has anything to do with integrity.

I think the best way to sum it up simply is to "walk your talk".
Make your actions in line with your morals, principles, and beliefs.

a reply to: TerryDon79

Scientology? Seriously?!

If they said the sky was blue, I would go out and check for myself.

That's funny because that is exactly what is stated.

Nothing in Scientology is true for you unless you have observed it and it is true according to your observation.

If Scientology said the sky was blue you must observe the sky and see if it is true according to your observation.
If you observe the sky and it is blue (according to your observation) and you say it is red - then that is not integrity.
How is the quote wrong?

Aristotelian1

I dunno..no where have I found that to be the definition of integrity. In the Merriam-Webster dictionary it states integrity is:

Full Definition of integrity 1 : firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values : incorruptibility 2 : an unimpaired condition : soundness 3 : the quality or state of being complete or undivided : completeness

Wiki

Integrity is the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness. It is generally a personal choice to hold oneself to consistent moral and ethical standards.[

Cambridge

the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles

Here are some quotes about integrity which match the standard definition of it:

“Have the courage to say no. Have the courage to face the truth. Do the right thing because it is right. These are the magic keys to living your life with integrity.” - W. Clement Stone
“Real integrity is doing the right thing, knowing that nobody's going to know whether you did it or not.” - Oprah Winfrey “Perhaps the surest test of an individual's integrity is his refusal to do or say anything that would damage his self-respect.” - Thomas S. Monson
“One of the truest tests of integrity is its blunt refusal to be compromised.” - Chinua Achebe
“You are in integrity when the life you are living on the outside matches who you are on the inside.” - Alan Cohen

Army Values:

INTEGRITY Do what’s right, legally and morally. Integrity is a quality you develop by adhering to moral principles. It requires that you do and say nothing that deceives others. As your integrity grows, so does the trust others place in you. The more choices you make based on integrity, the more this highly prized value will affect your relationships with family and friends, and, finally, the fundamental acceptance of yourself.

The only spot I was able to find anything even a bit similar was here:

In the first section of The Four Agreements, he advises: “Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love.”

The Book the four agreements can be read here

Anyhow..after doing about 15 minutes of looking..I cannot find another source that views integrity in the same manner as Mr. Hubbard. So, I am unsure where he got that definition. Maybe it is because of this that people are unable to discuss the subject matter with you.

But thank you for bringing this up..as I wouldn't have found the book of four agreements had I not opened your thread. It seems like it will be an interesting read...

Thanks,
blend57

a reply to: Aristotelian1

That whole thing is a psychological trap, meant to make you feel good.

Bait for his fishes. Food for his flocks.

From a man with little, to no integrity.

Reputation is what you do when others are watching, integrity is what you do when no one is watching.

a reply to: blend57

I gathered that Mr. Hubbard was describing personal responsibility as integrity... admitting he made Scientology up showed integrity and that he wasn't trying to pass it off as reality but gave an alternate dogma or path to get there and also tie his books into it as a complete system alternate in reality but still useful to reality without all the woo.

Where one may see demons or bad coping mechanisms the dogma used is some lil fellows that try to inhabit ones body and take over...

I think of integrity as the hull of a ship something water tight... and of course if you are going to want people to have a safe trip when experiencing the boat you are floating out there then of course you don't want to give them empty promises or pretend there's no holes in it as it will soon become evident enough in the voyage or application of it. This is why I have an issue with faith and blind belief.

We all have used self deceit, excuses and cognitive dissonance at some point in self defense so when seeing others do it as a practice their integrity is automatically compromised and their ship sprang several leaks.

That of course as I am sure you are aware is why introspection and holding oneself under the utmost scrutiny is how we come to know ourselves... until that is done those that haven't sort of become the emperor that wears no clothes... as it's blatantly obvious to what can no longer be hidden.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Whats wrong with feeling good? If the system makes some people feel good great... if it makes other not feel good not so great... of course the same can be said about many of these sorts of systems...

So it's just one of those things to say hey it may not be not for me but I'm glad it works for you... when not feeling good is the result if put into practice.

Of course some people just feel good about having some sort of fellowship or acceptance... but if they are hiding who they really are from them then whoop there goes all integrity as the sociopath or wolf hiding in sheep's clothing was revealed.

a reply to: Aristotelian1

What is personal integrity? Personal integrity is knowing what you know.

I don't want to minimize the importance of "knowing what you know," but there's much more to integrity than just knowing... appropriate action is also crucial. One real example:

Last night at the store, I gave the clerk a $10 bill to pay a $7 + change total. She was going to give me an extra $5 with my change. I knew it was too much. I knew what the charge was, what I gave her, and what my change should be... if I had taken that extra $5, I would have known that too. But there would have been no integrity involved -- exactly the opposite!!! Because I knew, it was also necessary for me to tell her as well, and NOT TAKE THAT EXTRA $5, in order to maintain my own integrity.

It's not just what one knows, but what one does with the knowledge.

a reply to: Boadicea

It's not just what one knows, but what one does with the knowledge.

Even then, that is not integrity. That's called wisdom.

a reply to: Boadicea

How people can live with themselves and just ignore the extra 5 and pocket it is beyond me... the cashier counting their drawer comes up short and it comes right out of their pocket not the stores or banks. So essentially they are the ones getting robbed by not saying anything and well as you said so is ones own integrity so it's a lose lose situation.

Of course some would take the "that'll teach them" stance and well I suppose they have never worked a repetitive job in their life where all of it starts looking exactly the same after awhile... as it blurs into one no ending transaction and if they have no one to relieve them for a break or they have been pushing overtime to make ends meet then the errors just continue stacking... and not in their favor at all.

a reply to: Raven_Heart

Even then, that is not integrity. That's called wisdom.

Wisdom -- knowledge -- is indeed necessary to know what the "right" response is, but integrity requires appropriate actions as well by definition.

the quality of being honest and fair. : the state of being complete or whole.

Source: Merriam-Webster -- Integrity

Integrity is the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness. It is generally a personal choice to hold oneself to consistent moral and ethical standards. In ethics, integrity is regarded by many people as the honesty and truthfulness or accuracy of one's actions.

Source: Wikipedia - Integrity

a reply to: Aristotelian1

L.Ron did have integrity. He even said what his plan was before doing it.

You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion.

en.wikiquote.org...

What's funny is the amount of people who just don't realize what his plan really was. Zenu? come on now.

a reply to: Aristotelian1

I disagree with the quote; I don't much care from where or whom it comes.

I define personal integrity as ones private persona - those things that each person knows are true about themselves - and public persona being in congruity. In other words, how somebody behaves or believes (or says they believe) when they are totally by themselves and when they are in public are the same.

Note that there is a difference between Integrity and Honor. Someone who says "If you leave your wallet here and leave the room, I will steal all of your money" is a person with Integrity. Someone who will not take other people's money is someone with Honor. So they are not the same.

originally posted by: BigBrotherDarkness
a reply to: Boadicea

How people can live with themselves and just ignore the extra 5 and pocket it is beyond me... the cashier counting their drawer comes up short and it comes right out of their pocket not the stores or banks. So essentially they are the ones getting robbed by not saying anything and well as you said so is ones own integrity so it's a lose lose situation.

You and me both!

Of course some would take the "that'll teach them" stance and well I suppose they have never worked a repetitive job in their life where all of it starts looking exactly the same after awhile... as it blurs into one no ending transaction and if they have no one to relieve them for a break or they have been pushing overtime to make ends meet then the errors just continue stacking... and not in their favor at all.

Yeah, there are those people, but I don't understand that attitude at all. Just from a practical perspective, if I had just taken the money she may never have known where or when or how it happened. By me pointing it out, she could see her mistake and hopefully not make it again. But also as you said, this was about half an hour before closing, I'm sure she had been working a full shift, she had been pulled off another task to open a register because the line was backing up, she was young so obviously didn't have too much experience, she was flustered... that all adds up. We're human. We make mistakes. I had the chance to make it right and I did and she had the chance to learn and do better next time. If she wasn't so inclined before, the experience might inspire her to do the same if she's ever in my position.

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

Nothing wrong with feeling good, or feeling good about yourself.

But here we are talking about words from Hubbard, used in a manner to stir emotion in the weak minded (or something), with the ultimate intent of luring them into his cult. And it is a cult. A very large and powerful cult.

What is true for you is what you have observed yourself. And when you lose that, you have lost everything.

What is this even supposed to mean?

What is personal integrity? Personal integrity is knowing what you know. What you know is what you know and to have the courage to know and say what you have observed. And that is integrity and there is no other integrity.

Or this?

Of course, we can talk about honor, truth, nobility—all these things as esoteric terms. But I think they would all be covered very well if what we really observed was what we observed, that we took care to observe what we were observing, that we always observed to observe.

And this?

And not necessarily maintaining a skeptical attitude, a critical attitude or an open mind—not necessarily maintaining these things at all—

Ah, the pay no attention to the man behind the curtain warning.

but certainly maintaining sufficient personal integrity and sufficient personal belief and confidence in self and courage that we can observe what we observe and say what we have observed.

Huh?

Nothing in Scientology is true for you unless you have observed it and it is true according to your observation.

And when the brainwashing is complete and it has become your truth you can go on to brainwash others.

I don't care how good it makes some people feel.

There is nothing good about Scientology.

It's dangerous, frankly. I urge the OP to get out before it's too late.